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gamewell45
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I sure wouldn’t want to be the executioner who threw the switch, only to later find out that you executed the wrong guy. Imagine having to live with that on your conscience?
Americans Back Death Penalty by Gas or Electrocution If No Needle: Poll
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SeannyM
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The drugs used to euthanize are not the same drugs. The justice system won’t use them because they take too long.
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SeannyM
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There is a difference between punishment and vengeance. Punishing them is life in prison, the only thing the death penalty does that life imprisonment doesn’t do is satisfy a sick need to revenge that is not very Christ-like at all.When I read of the horrific crimes that those on Death Row have committed, I have a hard time calling their executions “murder”. Sounds like reasonable punishment to me.Rob
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saintjohnxxiii
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Brilliant post Rence.
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Holly3278
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Their victims definitely do matter. They matter a lot. Justice has to be served but in my own opinion, it ought to be served by life in prison without the opportunity of parole. I would personally have an exception for those who are so dangerous that they pose a serious danger even while in prison.
The main reason why I am against the death penalty because I personally feel that the death penalty is contrary to the inherent dignity that all human beings have as a result of being made in the image of God but at the same time I recognize that murderers are doing something that is gravely contrary to the dignity of others when they commit their horrific crimes and therefore a suitable punishment must be allowed and used.
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Ender
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Do you recognize the irony in this statement? We believe that there is an inherent dignity to all human life because we are told by God himself that man is made in his image. The irony comes from the fact that God gives this as the reason murderers are to lose their own lives.Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. (Gn 9:6)
What God said was that the murderer forfeits his life because the life of his victim was sacred. Your interpretation reverses this and claims that the murderer’s life is secure because his life is sacred.
The suitable punishment is death…at least that seems to be God’s position.
Ender
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Kelt
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I realise that I am a new member to the forum and from Britain where we have no death penalty. I’m not trying to annoy anyone!! - I’d like to comment here, as it’s something I find hard to understand. In this country I’m confident the Christian churches would stand against re-introduction of a death penalty. ‘Thou shalt not kill’ and ’ let he who is without guilt…’ etc comes to mind immediately. Also, if you believe that everyone should have a chance to repent how can you deny them time to do so? Basically, I don’t see how we can have the right to stand as judge for someone’s life. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Vengeance should not come into it.
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Ender
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Hey, if we didn’t disagree about this we wouldn’t have anything to discuss. Fire away.
Unfortunately what has been utterly lost in the last half century is any sense of why Christianity supported capital punishment in the first place. It was not Christians who initially opposed it.*The mounting opposition to the death penalty in Europe since the Enlightenment has gone hand in hand with a decline of faith in eternal life. In the nineteenth century the most consistent supporters of capital punishment were the Christian churches, and its most consistent opponents were groups hostile to the churches. When death came to be understood as the ultimate evil rather than as a stage on the way to eternal life, utilitarian philosophers such as Jeremy Bentham found it easy to dismiss capital punishment as “useless annihilation.” *(Cardinal Dulles)
This is not an absolute ban on killing, nor has the church ever interpreted it that way.And so, when by public authority a malefactor is put to death, it is not called murder, but an act of justice: and whereas the commandment of God saith: Thou shalt not kill, it is understood, by thy private authority. (St. Bellarmine)
*Paradoxically, those who oppose capital punishment on these grounds are assuming the state has a sort of totalitarian capacity which it does not in fact possess, a power to frustrate the whole of one’s existence. Since a death imposed by one man on another can remove neither the latter’s moral goal nor his human worth, it is still more incapable of preventing the operation of God’s justice, which sits in judgment on all our adjudications. *(Romano Amerio)
Even when it is a question of the execution of a condemned man, the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already disposed himself of his right to live. (Pius XII)
First, capital punishment is not a wrong or the right of States to employ it would not be a church doctrine. Second, I don’t think you quite appreciate the nature of punishment. If God himself employs vengeance, how can it be wrong? What is forbidden is individual vengeance; not vengeance by the State.Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. (Rm 12:19)
Ender
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mikekle
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I dont really agree with killing people over crimes, but wouldnt basic carbon monoxide poisoning be the most humane? People that die of this in their homes just go to sleep and never wake up, no pain, no suffering, nothing, plus Im sure its much cheaper.
IMO, ‘THOU SHALT NOT KILL’ speaks for itself, if you notice, there is no asterisk after the commandment, so its pretty clear to me, but for those that disagree, if killing by authorities is OK, then, by rights, some people should also be ‘exempt’ from other commandments as well, why stop at killing?
I truly think if God meant ‘some’ killing to be OK, he would have not made it one of the commandments and then there would be no speculation about it.
Another thing I find strange, we all know this is a commandment, but in the OT, there are many times when God himself instructs people to kill others, so im assuming he is not held to the commandments (just humans), and he can order anything he likes, but its still strange that he would tell mankind not to kill, but then turn around and instruct people to kill others and sometimes, even entire towns…?
IMO, ‘THOU SHALT NOT KILL’ speaks for itself, if you notice, there is no asterisk after the commandment, so its pretty clear to me, but for those that disagree, if killing by authorities is OK, then, by rights, some people should also be ‘exempt’ from other commandments as well, why stop at killing?
I truly think if God meant ‘some’ killing to be OK, he would have not made it one of the commandments and then there would be no speculation about it.
Another thing I find strange, we all know this is a commandment, but in the OT, there are many times when God himself instructs people to kill others, so im assuming he is not held to the commandments (just humans), and he can order anything he likes, but its still strange that he would tell mankind not to kill, but then turn around and instruct people to kill others and sometimes, even entire towns…?
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Kelt
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We’ll thank you Ender, for your detailed reply. This is very, very interesting but, (and you knew there’d be a but !) each answer you give to each point sound much more like the philosophical machinations of theologians after 2000 years of complicating matters, than the voice of Jesus that sings loud through the synoptic gospels which are nearest to a record of his ministry.
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Ender
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Don’t be too quick to dismiss the thoughts of Christianity’s greatest theologians. The Fathers and Doctors of the Church were virtually unanimous in their support of capital punishment. A half dozen popes going back to Clement I (who was ordained a bishop by St. Peter himself) recognized its validity. It’s use by the state was taken for granted. Furthermore,* At no point, however, does Jesus deny that the State has authority to exact capital punishment. In his debates with the Pharisees, Jesus cites with approval the apparently harsh commandment, “He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die”* (Cardinal Dulles)
As I said, the more you investigate this subject the more you will realize that the church’s position on this subject is not what you think it is.
Ender
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Kelt
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But past theologians in the church used to demand that people were burned alive for heresy and for witchcraft. They used methods of torture which didn’t shed blood so that they kept within the ‘rules’. The OT sanctioned stoning to death for adultery and you are saying that Jesus sanctioned death for not honouring your parents (is that in John?)…but no-one in their right mind would expect the Christian church to sanction all that today! A pope called for a crusade in the holy land in the Middle Ages which started an horrendous spree of bloodshed…but none would do it now!
Surely when Jesus said “let he who is without evil cast the first stone” he was saying that only anyone who’s perfect has the right to take life! And clearly no-one is.
As for theologians, they have spent 2000 years arguing and reflect the times in which they lived. Even so, some were against violence. John Chrysostom said" Our warfare is to make the dead to live, not to make the living dead."
If a society is threatened, the question of war and killing is a tricky question. A death penalty does not work as a deterrent and can make mistakes. There is another option. And even if your reading of scriptures still convinces you that you have the right to take a life - If you can be merciful should you not be so?
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Kelt
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I find this difficult to believe…
There is no humane way to kill someone who wants to continue living. It sounds like you are discussing the best way to dispose of an inconvenient pet. If you were the one to pull the trigger, how would you ultimately answer your God when you were asked "was there no other path to take? I guess if you support capital punishment then you do believe that you WILL ultimately be asked this question? Gosh, no other path? We take another path in Europe and I don’t think our murder rate is worse than yours?
We’re talking about methods, not the morality of the death penalty, which has been continually upheld by the Catholic Church. So even if I were to support the death penalty, as any Catholic can, I can do so in good conscience, remain in God’s grace and not have to answer for it.
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Kelt
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Wow…
This puts me in mind of the uncompromising religious certainty of Islamic fundamentalists.
This puts me in mind of the uncompromising religious certainty of Islamic fundamentalists.
Don’t compare Catholicism with Islamic fundamentalists.
The Catholic Church upholds the morality of the death penalty. You and those who oppose it are no more righteous than those Catholics who support it because this is a perfectly legitimate position to hold.
How dare you make the comparison with Islam?
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Ender
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Both Matthew and Mark record this event. (Mt 15:4, Mk 7:10)
Actually that episode really doesn’t have anything to do with this issue. Jesus was being put in a position where if he said the woman should be stoned he would be breaking Roman law but if he said she should not be stoned he would be breaking Mosaic law. The church has never referenced this story in the context of capital punishment.
Morality does not change with the times; what was moral before is moral now.Equally important is the Pope’s [Pius XII] insistence that capital punishment is morally defensible in every age and culture of Christianity. Why? Because the Church’s teaching on “the coercive power of legitimate human authority” is based on “the sources of revelation and traditional doctrine.” It is wrong, therefore “to say that these sources only contain ideas which are conditioned by historical circumstances.” On the contrary, they have “a general and abiding validity.” (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 1955, pp 81-2). (Fr. John Hardon)
It is the nearly unanimous opinion of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church that the death penalty is morally licit, and the teaching of past popes (and numerous catechisms) that this penalty is essentially just (and even that its validity is not subject to cultural variation). (Stephen A. Long, Univ St. Thomas)
All penalties deter some. It is hard to believe lesser punishments deter while the most severe of all does not.
It is not my reading of Scripture that has convinced me but the writings of the church. As to mercy, it may be appropriate in some individual cases but it is not appropriate in all.
Ender
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dudleysharp
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Clayton Lockett: The Case for Execution
Dudley Sharp
Make the effort to think of your daughters, granddaughters and sisters, or any loved ones, as these victims and their family members were forced to do.
During a home invasion and kidnapping:
A, completely, innocent Stephanie Neiman, 19, was shot twice with a shotgun. The criminals made Stephanie watch as they dug her grave. Stephanie was placed, alive, in that grave, moaning and crying, and buried, alive (1).
Summer Hair was anally and vaginally raped, twice, on separate occasions and different locations and forced to perform oral sex. She lived (1).
Lockett gave a full confession, with no remorse.
Lockett was an ongoing, continuing threat while on death row (2), just as he was before these crimes.
In the full context of Lockett’s crimes and his death, there is no reason for anyone to use them as a reason to abandoned the death penalty and every reason to reflect on why some crimes deserve the death penalty.
Remember Stephanie and Summer.
Predictably, death penalty opponents are using Lockett as their newest poster murderer to fight death penalty support.
Anti death penalty legislators in the New Hampshire House of Representatives even used Lockett as the foundation for a re-vote on death penalty repeal.
Fortunately, with that re-vote, the House had 7 fewer votes for repeal and 13 more votes for retention. Thank you. The Senate refused to reconsider and the death penalty remains.
Lockett’s crimes call for more death penalty support.
LOCKETT"S BOTCHED EXECUTION
Death penalty opponents, in all states, are using Lockett’s botched execution, in Oklahoma, to call for an end to execution, as is New Hampshire.
Odd. Oklahoma has a history of successful executions, which is, somehow, being forgotten.
Nationally, much less than 1% of lethal injections have any problems (cut downs are not problems, but solutions).
Could Lockett have exhibited those noises and movements while unconscious? Of course. Could he have been conscious? Of course.
At this point, no one even knows, for sure, if Lockett suffered. Depending upon how much of the drugs were administered IV and how much, intra muscular, after his vein blow out, we cannot know if he suffered or if he was conscious. Hopefully, the autopsy and expected review can tell us.
But, we do know what happened to Stephanie and Summer. Don’t forget them.
Blow outs are not uncommon, with IV administration, worldwide. They are no big deal.
With executions, the proper protocol is to have a second IV line, ready to go. Had that been done in Lockett’s case, there would have been a brief delay, from the blow out, then the second IV would have been used and no one would have even noticed.
So, let’s wait until the full report and stop any blind speculation.
We know what happened with all the blind speculation in McGuire’s execution (3) in Ohio. Let’s not duplicate that nonsense with Lockett.
- "Clayton Lockett (states): ‘IN REALITY I AM PROBABLY THE MOST DANGEROUS TYPE OF CRIMINAL’ . . . ‘CAUSE I’M AN ASSASIN - POINT BLANK’ "
ok.gov/oag/documents/Lockett%20Clemency%20brf.pdf - “Friends of victim have zero sympathy for Clayton Lockett”, New York Daily News, May 2, 2014,
nydailynews.com/news/crime/friends-victim-zero-sympathy-clayton-lockett-inmate-botched-okla-execution-article-1.1777463 - The (Imagined) Horror of Dennis McGuire’s Execution
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-imagined-horror-of-dennis-mcguires.html
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dudleysharp
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Supporting justice is somehting to be stubborn about.
86% Death Penalty Support: Highest Ever - April 2013
World Support Remains High
95% of Murder Victim’s Family Members Support Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/11/86-death-penalty-support-highest-ever.html
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