America's Most Dangerous Drug

[thestickman]

HagiaSophia:

And will you be willing to undergo surgery under the knife of a person loaded with it? Want to be a passenger in an airliner with the pilot on it? When something becomes legal - it’s an affirmation of the society that it’s okay to do.

As much and as often as I would someone who was drunk or hungover.

The prohibition/war on drugs is an total failure. I would legalize all drugs, set strict regulations on them with intense fines for violators, tax the trash like cigerettes and booze. Use a portion of that money for tx centers to deal with the inital spike of users and to maintain tx for the small percentage of folks who are going to use these substances whether they are illegal or not.
Of course you also use a chunk of the tax $$ generated to teach kids in school what a true loser a drug user really is.

You take the huge profit margins out of the drug trade you lose the criminal element to where it’s that of any other legit business.

Much as I despise coke and all that trash (I’ve seen a LOT of talented people destroy themselves…too many) it only makes sense to put it all on the same level as booze.

Just my 3 cents

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

HagiaSophia:

And we’ve all seen how that stops it haven’t we? Would that go for guns too do you think? Anyone can walk in and buy any type of weapon they want - I mean if they want to hunt rabbits with a howitzer – well let’em – it makes no sense, no sense at all.

**I am a total advocate for an armed citizenry! ** An armed society is a polite society!

By legalizing all drugs and taxing them you will break the back of the drug-dealers, demystify dope smoking, and give a much needed break to the over taxed American middle class.

Do you know how many lawyers paid their way through law school selling cocaine? Or how many cops sell dope from their units in the big city neighborhoods? Or how many judges accept cash bribes from busted drug dealers? The answer is quite a few!

Not only is the American judiciary inept, it is corrupt as well. Legalizing drugs and taxing them will reduce the billion dollar a year market in crime and vice that illegal drugs generate, not to mention the murder, rape, and assaults directly connected to the drug trade.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

vern humphrey:

Unfortunately, a good many people disagree with that philosophy, and will take legalization to mean “Hey, if it wasn’t good for me, the government wouldn’t have legalized it.”

And when you legalize it, what do you do about prescription drugs? How can you keep control of antibiotics, for example, and prevent rapid evolution of drug-resistant microbes?

Surely if you can buy a drug that will dramatically shorten your life across the counter, you can’t be refused true medicine on the same basis!

Prescription drugs are already legal, taxed, and controlled, so I don’t understand your point?

Ilicit drugs are generating a billion dollar a year crime market in America, not legal over-the-counter prescription drugs (with the possible exception of Oxycontin).

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

vern humphrey:

Unfortunately, a good many people disagree with that philosophy, and will take legalization to mean “Hey, if it wasn’t good for me, the government wouldn’t have legalized it.”

Yes, there are lots of stupid people in this world. But a lot of people know that booze is legal and is still bad for you but pay the tax and drink to excess, then pay the penalty (jail, fines, etc.). The same would hold true for legal ‘drugs’ (cocaine, meth, etc.), people will behave equivalently as towards booze, except the crime rate would drop. Just as the end of prohibition caused a drop in alcohol related crime sprees, so would the legalization of ‘drugs’ cause a similar drop in the crime rate in the U.S.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Bobby A. Greene:

You go to a state liquor store to purchase your cocaine or meth, but you’ll be arrested for driving under the influence or being high in public, just like alcohol.

There is a question of scale. Some people get addicted to alcohol. Some people do not. Those who try meth get addicted.
Bobby A. Greene:

Legalization of anything is not a moral condonation of that commodity!

So far, no one has addressed something which I have raised twice: the predatory root behaviour for which the addiction is a pretext or excuse.

 

[vern_humphrey]

thestickman:

The prohibition/war on drugs is an total failure.

So is the legalization of drugs – ask the countries which have tried it.

Legalization of drugs not only results in dramatic increases in the number of addicts, but also has other undersirable side effects. It’s no accident that the countries where drugs have been legalized see a jump in Sexually Transmitted Diseases, abortions, and other social evils.

catsrus:

I would legalize all drugs, set strict regulations on them with intense fines for violators, tax the trash like cigerettes and booze. Use a portion of that money for tx centers to deal with the inital spike of users and to maintain tx for the small percentage of folks who are going to use these substances whether they are illegal or not.

That initial spike is going to be much bigger – and last much longer than you expect.

And when you decide the experiment is a failure – at the cost of many thousands of lives – you aren’t going to be able to get the genie back in the bottle. Not in our lifetimes.

catsrus:

Much as I despise coke and all that trash (I’ve seen a LOT of talented people destroy themselves…too many) it only makes sense to put it all on the same level as booze.

Just my 3 cents

And if it were easier and cheaper to get, you’d see more people destroy themselves.

In every other area of economic activity, if you lower the price of an attractive commodity, people buy and use more of it. How can we suppose that cheaper drugs will result in LESS addiction?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Bobby A. Greene:

Prescription drugs are already legal, taxed, and controlled, so I don’t understand your point?/quote]

The point is simple. Let me illustrate: Imagine I want an antibiotic, and you want a fix of heroin.

How can the government allow you to buy heroin (a drug that will ruin your life) or even more dangerous drugs like PCP, and maintain the prescription drug system?

Suppose I’m charged with illegally obtaining an antibiotic – do you think a jury will convict me when I point out that if I had bought PCP or meth or heroin it would be no crime?

And if we can all buy all the antibiotics we want, how long will it be before we have all kinds of antibiotic-resistant germs?
Bobby A. Greene:

Ilicit drugs are generating a billion dollar a year crime market in America, not legal over-the-counter prescription drugs (with the possible exception of Oxycontin).

Believe me, prescription drugs are probably more likely to be the drug of choice than illegal drugs. My wife is an RN, and I could give you a long list of medical personnel who abuse prescription drugs.

 

[thestickman]

vern humphrey:

How can we suppose that cheaper drugs will result in LESS addiction?

Simple. Studies showed after the end of Prohibition, alcohol use did go up for a short time (the user spike) then it leveled off to a lower percentage and has basically stayed the same. I’m not suggesting cheaper drugs will result in less addiction. I’m submit there would be a short-term spike in drug use as was the case after the end of Prohibition and then a leveling off of users.

Regarding countries that have tried legalizing drugs…I think if you look at the data they not only legalized them but subsidized them to addicts. That’s not what I am suggesting. Treat them exactly as we do booze and tobacco now. No government handouts of crack or heroin.

Now I’m up to a nickel’s worth

 

[vern_humphrey]

Bobby A. Greene:

Prescription drugs are already legal, taxed, and controlled, so I don’t understand your point?

The point is simple. Let me illustrate: Imagine I want an antibiotic, and you want a fix of heroin.

How can the government allow you to buy heroin (a drug that will ruin your life) or even more dangerous drugs like PCP, and maintain the prescription drug system?

Suppose I’m charged with illegally obtaining an antibiotic – do you think a jury will convict me when I point out that if I had bought PCP or meth or heroin it would be no crime?

And if we can all buy all the antibiotics we want, how long will it be before we have all kinds of antibiotic-resistant germs?
Bobby A. Greene:

Ilicit drugs are generating a billion dollar a year crime market in America, not legal over-the-counter prescription drugs (with the possible exception of Oxycontin)…

Believe me, prescription drugs are probably more likely to be the drug of choice than illegal drugs. They just don’t make the headlines as often. My wife is an RN, and I could give you a long list of medical personnel who abuse prescription drugs.

 

[thestickman]

vern humphrey:

How can the government allow you to buy heroin (a drug that will ruin your life) or even more dangerous drugs like PCP, and maintain the prescription drug system?

The same way they can allow alcoholic beverages to be sold and consumed legally. Lord knows booze has done at least as much, if not more damage to society than illegal use of pot.

7 Cents worth now

 

[vern_humphrey]

thestickman:

The same way they can allow alcoholic beverages to be sold and consumed legally. Lord knows booze has done at least as much, if not more damage to society than illegal use of pot.

7 Cents worth now

Booze is more dangerous than cannabis. It is NOT more dangerous than PCP or chrystal meth!

And not nearly as dangerous as rampaging strains of antibiotic resistant germs.

 

[vern_humphrey]

thestickman:

Simple. Studies showed after the end of Prohibition, alcohol use did go up for a short time (the user spike) then it leveled off to a lower percentage and has basically stayed the same. I’m not suggesting cheaper drugs will result in less addiction. I’m submit there would be a short-term spike in drug use as was the case after the end of Prohibition and then a leveling off of users.

That’s not what happens in countries that legalize drugs. The reason is simple – you can have a cold beer after cutting the grass, or a glass of wine in front of the fireplace and not become an alcoholic.

Try that with crystal meth!!

thestickman:

Regarding countries that have tried legalizing drugs…I think if you look at the data they not only legalized them but subsidized them to addicts. That’s not what I am suggesting. Treat them exactly as we do booze and tobacco now. No government handouts of crack or heroin.

Now I’m up to a nickel’s worth

Little Johnnie buys drugs. Little Johnnie uses drugs. Little Johnnie loses his job and is unemployable. Little Johnnie needs more drugs. Guess how Little Johnnie gets the money to pay for his habit?

 

[Karin]

vern humphrey:

Little Johnnie buys drugs. Little Johnnie uses drugs. Little Johnnie loses his job and is unemployable. Little Johnnie needs more drugs. Guess how Little Johnnie gets the money to pay for his habit?

You and me :crying::bigyikes: or any poor soul that he can mug, rob murder to get teh money for his next fix!

 

[thestickman]

vern humphrey:

Little Johnnie buys drugs. Little Johnnie uses drugs. Little Johnnie loses his job and is unemployable. Little Johnnie needs more drugs. Guess how Little Johnnie gets the money to pay for his habit?

Same way the the alcoholic who’s lost his job for being a drunk does.

But either way, you know it’s all Bush’s fault!!!

Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Vern and I are actually engaging in an exchange of ideas and neither of us has called each other a name. For those who are unfamiliar with this exercise, this is called an “argument”.

Once again, sowwy. I had to get that outta my system…now legalize dat pot so Grandma can smoke a bowl if she wants before dinner

 

[Ani_Ibi]

One useful definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again with the same results, but each time expecting different results.

I am through with thinking addicts are suffering from some kind of illness. I look at the swath of destruction they cut through ordinary people’s lives and the self-righteousness and cunning with which they justify this and I go: not in my backyard.

A good dose of truth is what addicts need. The truth about cause and effect. Trash the people who care about you (family, friends, neighbours, the church) often enough and lose not only your humanity but your means of survival.

Moreover I am not suffering from a God complex. I have no delusions of being equal to the task of turning an addict’s life around. That is exclusively between the addict and God.

As far as I am concerned the sooner an addict hits absolutely the very darkest, most agonizing corner of bottom, the sooner he/she can take out a membership in the human race.

 

[vern_humphrey]

thestickman:

Same way the the alcoholic who’s lost his job for being a drunk does.

The odds of Johnnie becoming addicted to drugs from casual use is much higher than of becoming addicted to alcohol under the same level of use.

And many drugs are much more dangerous than alcohol.

But in any case, the issue is immaterial. As the saying goes, the perfect is the enemy of the good enough. We don’t throw in the towel because we aren’t able to prevent all addiction.

thestickman:

But either way, you know it’s all Bush’s fault!!!

Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Vern and I are actually engaging in an exchange of ideas and neither of us has called each other a name. For those who are unfamiliar with this exercise, this is called an “argument”.

Dang! I forgot what it was I was planning to call you!

I’ll have to call Howard Dean and see if he has some choice names.

thestickman:

Once again, sowwy. I had to get that outta my system…now legalize dat pot so Grandma can smoke a bowl if she wants before dinner

Grandma is busy with the honkey donkeys – she don’t need no pot.

 

[pnewton]

thestickman:

The prohibition/war on drugs is an total failure.

How do you know that? Because drug abuse has not been eliminated? We do have no way of knowing how much worse things could be had it not been for the efforts made.

As far as prison being a snake pit, no one is sent to prison who has not made the choices it takes to go there. First time possession almost always results in probation and some sort of rehab. Here in Texas we even have rehab prisons designed specifically for those who persist in illegal drug abuse. By the time one ends up with prison time, there have been many opportunies to choose a different life.

No child today or for the past few decades can claim ignorance that drugs destroy lives.

 

[pnewton]

In case anyone has any misconceptions that drug use is a victimless crime. Crack mommy starves child.

click2houston.com/news/4801327/detail.html

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

vern humphrey:

The odds of Johnnie becoming addicted to drugs from casual use is much higher than of becoming addicted to alcohol under the same level of use.

And many drugs are much more dangerous than alcohol.

Yes, that is true, And anybody who has taken Psychopharmacology in college is aware that there are three types of addiction: physical addiction, psychological addiction, and social addiction.

Alcohol is somewhat addictive while heroin is so very addictive that not only is it illegal, but it is also illegal to use for scientific research. Yet in Germany, heroin is commonly used as an analgesic. German ‘headache’ pills are laced with heroin and are much sought after by American women.

Yet despite the various levels of addiction of legal and illegal drugs, it is the illegal drugs which are driving a very violent crime rate in the United States which the rule of law has failed to control.

It is only cold logic which dictates that drugs be legalized and taxed to wreak havoc on organized crime and to alleviate the pressure on the honest middle class tax payer.

Legalization will remove the mystique of drug use and lessen its demand, as the end of prohibition did for alcohol. And just as alcohol abuse has its adherents, so inevitably will legal ‘drug’ abuse have its adherents, just as in alcohol.

Yes, there are alcoholic wife beaters, kid abusers, self-abusers, bums & winos, and alcoholic reprobates of all kinds, and so too will there be of legal drug abusers. But its a small price to pay to stop a billion + dollar/year criminal economy which unnecessarily destroys the lives of thousands of innocent Americans annually.

Again, it is not a moral condonation of legalizing drugs, just an ugly & stark necessity.

 

[pnewton]

Bobby A. Greene:

Again, it is not a moral condonation of legalizing drugs, just an ugly & stark necessity.

Some good observations you have here. But could not the say arguement be used to legalize prostitution, racketeering, murder for hire, etc.

Also, since this thread started specifically to address meth, I would like to point out that meth, because of it ease of production, needs no organized crime network like cocaine. While this has made it hard to combat on one level, it seems most of our meth manufacturers I have met are independant, or at least small scale operators.