America's 'soul' at risk over immigration, Archbishop Gomez warns

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Prodigal_Son1 said:
The issue is politicized by partisans. Again, economics is not a reason I can try and explain not embracing any of His to the Lord. I, personally, don’t believe His Gospel is that complicated that I should try and approach it legalistically.
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Hello Prodigal Son. You can’t give what you don’t have, and its morally wrong to use a credit card to pay for things and leave the bill for others to pay. That is NOT charity. You’ve been using scripture to make your points - where in the bible does it tell us to help others by running up debt? Would it be charitable if I gave $200 to someone - and charged a credit card and gave the bill to your grandchildren or children? If you believe those things are okay then you display a profound lack of understanding of basic economics and common sense.

It is admirable to desire to help others out of a sense of compassion and acknowlegement of the social gospel. But we will not be able to help others if we go bankrupt, will we.

Ishii
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
While I am not opposed to ‘open’ immigration, I’m not sure how, or why, it was expanded to ‘open’ immigration. Irregardless, it’s America’s ‘soul’ the Archbishop speaks of, specifically. As an American Catholic, I offer my view.
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The Church does not teach “open immigration” but says the civil authorities may regulate it consistent with the common good. It also says immigrants should respect the laws of the states to which they go.

“Open immigration” as a concept, and the current disregard for immigration laws on the part of this government and the illegal immigrants themselves are consistent with neither.
 
ishii said:
Hello Prodigal Son. You can’t give what you don’t have, and its morally wrong to use a credit card to pay for things and leave the bill for others to pay. That is NOT charity. You’ve been using scripture to make your points - where in the bible does it tell us to help others by running up debt? Would it be charitable if I gave $200 to someone - and charged a credit card and gave the bill to your grandchildren or children? If you believe those things are okay then you display a profound lack of understanding of basic economics and common sense.

It is admirable to desire to help others out of a sense of compassion and acknowlegement of the social gospel. But we will not be able to help others if we go bankrupt, will we.

Ishii
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So it’s not correct for me to speak my view because of the affect it might have on others, but it’s acceptable for others to speak their view even if it has affect on me, and those who share my view?

Because I share the view of the Archbishop, I now have a profound lack of understanding of basic economics and common sense, even in light of my explaining I believe a profound faith in Christ can accomplish all things? Please. I have done my best to avoid ad hominems, spinning what others say, or making direct derogatory remarks towards anyone. I would appreciate the same courtesy. 😉
 
Ridgerunner said:
The Church does not teach “open immigration” but says the civil authorities may regulate it consistent with the common good. It also says immigrants should respect the laws of the states to which they go.

“Open immigration” as a concept, and the current disregard for immigration laws on the part of this government and the illegal immigrants themselves are consistent with neither.
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Does the Church teach against one not having a problem with open immigration?

I believe the text of Pope Benedict’s statements on immigration, that I provided, covered the Church’s stance on the issue very well. How does, ‘In the same way, naturally, all that is possible must be done to work against the instability of the situations and against all the violations, and to help so that they can have a truly dignified life where they find themselves in this moment.’ fit in the consistency of what you’re trying to explain?
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Does the Church teach against one not having a problem with open immigration?

I believe the text of Pope Benedict’s statements on immigration, that I provided, covered the Church’s stance on the issue very well. How does, ‘In the same way, naturally, all that is possible must be done to work against the instability of the situations and against all the violations, and to help so that they can have a truly dignified life where they find themselves in this moment.’ fit in the consistency of what you’re trying to explain?
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I don’t think the Church teaches directly that one cannot espouse open immigration. But open immigration is not consistent with Church teachings.

I see no problem with what Pope Benedict said. But how does “open immigration” square with working “against the instability of the situations”? It really doesn’t. The Church teaches that states have the right and the duty to reasonably regulate immigration and to require that those wishing to immigrate have a proper respect for the laws of the country to which they seek to immigrate.

It often does not seem so to some, but many of the people trying to immigrate illegally do not really have it bad in their home countries. They just have it better here, or potentially do. There are exceptions like Haiti, where life is pretty much universally miserable. But there are places where it is not so, Mexico being one of them.

As I have mentioned before, people in Lichtenstein have a considerably higher per capita income than do people in the U.S. But does that fact confer a right on everybody in the U.S. to go live in Lichtenstein when conditions here are reasonably good? Does the Church really teach that I should be free to go live in Lichtenstein if I want to, and that the citizens there have no right to say me nay?
 
The CCC says this.

“Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.”

That’s not open immigration.

And I doubt that Abp Gomez would challenge that assertion either.
 
ishii said:
Hello Prodigal Son. You can’t give what you don’t have, and its morally wrong to use a credit card to pay for things and leave the bill for others to pay. That is NOT charity. You’ve been using scripture to make your points - where in the bible does it tell us to help others by running up debt? Would it be charitable if I gave $200 to someone - and charged a credit card and gave the bill to your grandchildren or children? If you believe those things are okay then you display a profound lack of understanding of basic economics and common sense.

It is admirable to desire to help others out of a sense of compassion and acknowlegement of the social gospel. But we will not be able to help others if we go bankrupt, will we.

Ishii
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Well written. 👍

Now, cue smug, holier-than-thou response… 😛
 
Must turn now to my duties to carry out my wife’s suggestions concerning my evening activities. Well, I also feel some duty to my stomach as well.

Bye for now. Be of good cheer!
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
So it’s not correct for me to speak my view because of the affect it might have on others, but it’s acceptable for others to speak their view even if it has affect on me, and those who share my view?

Because I share the view of the Archbishop, I now have a profound lack of understanding of basic economics and common sense, even in light of my explaining I believe a profound faith in Christ can accomplish all things? Please. I have done my best to avoid ad hominems, spinning what others say, or making direct derogatory remarks towards anyone. I would appreciate the same courtesy. 😉
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You are obviously welcome to believe whatever you want. But if you want to convince people of something, which is why most people post in this forum, you certainly aren’t going to do it by reposting “WWJD?” and “I base my beliefs on the scriptures.”

Without any specifics, you are simply clogging the board with repetitious posts, and that can be a forum violation itself.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I don’t think the Church teaches directly that one cannot espouse open immigration. But open immigration is not consistent with Church teachings.

I see no problem with what Pope Benedict said. But how does “open immigration” square with working “against the instability of the situations”? It really doesn’t. The Church teaches that states have the right and the duty to reasonably regulate immigration and to require that those wishing to immigrate have a proper respect for the laws of the country to which they seek to immigrate.

It often does not seem so to some, but many of the people trying to immigrate illegally do not really have it bad in their home countries. They just have it better here, or potentially do. There are exceptions like Haiti, where life is pretty much universally miserable. But there are places where it is not so, Mexico being one of them.

As I have mentioned before, people in Lichtenstein have a considerably higher per capita income than do people in the U.S. But does that fact confer a right on everybody in the U.S. to go live in Lichtenstein when conditions here are reasonably good? Does the Church really teach that I should be free to go live in Lichtenstein if I want to, and that the citizens there have no right to say me nay?
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How can something not spoken against by the Church not be consistent with Church teachings?

How did the discussion go to open immigration. I have explained that, ‘while I not opposed to open immigration, this discussion is about immigration reforms?’ I spoke, in passing, something I am not against, and the Church doesn’t speak against my non-opposition to open immigration.

I’m not going to parse what Pope Benedict said. It speaks clearly enough for me, and I accept it as a teaching, or voice of conscience.

While you try to convince how well people have it reality is the men of the Church seem to recognize problems that need be addressed so that immigration would not be necessary. What you compare to better is quite different though the eyes of those that come here seeking work. If the conditions are worse, where they are from, compared to where I see them living here, I don’t blame them for coming here, and wish even better for them.
 
Frank_Drebin said:
You are obviously welcome to believe whatever you want. But if you want to convince people of something, which is why most people post in this forum, you certainly aren’t going to do it by reposting “WWJD?” and “I base my beliefs on the scriptures.”

Without any specifics, you are simply clogging the board with repetitious posts, and that can be a forum violation itself.
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Isn’t this a Christian forum? Shouldn’t everything we do in this life be through the light of the Christ? The Church teaches us to imitate Christ, and the scriptures give us His words. I also cross reference with the Catechism, the early Church fathers, and statements from the men of the Church guiding us.

I post and explain as best as I can and do my best not to violate forum rules, which I don’t believe I have done.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Isn’t this a Christian forum? Shouldn’t everything we do in this life be through the light of the Christ? The Church teaches us to imitate Christ, and the scriptures give us His words. I also cross reference with the Catechism, the early Church fathers, and statements from the men of the Church guiding us.

I post and explain as best as I can and do my best not to violate forum rules, which I don’t believe I have done.
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Yes you do, and everyone of us agrees, and yet arrives and a different conclusion than you. How is that possible?
 
Frank_Drebin said:
Yes you do, and everyone of us agrees, and yet arrives and a different conclusion than you. How is that possible?
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I don’t see a full consensus in agreement, on either side of the discussion. What type debate would it be with everyone in agreement? 😃
 
I think our soul is at risk big time in some other things that go on in America.
 
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