America's 'soul' at risk over immigration, Archbishop Gomez warns

[Prodigal_Son1]

Inconsistent is inconsistent, and has nothing to do with a personal view. You are staking out a moral position that the Church itself does not take and is, in fact, contrary to the Church’s position.

My understanding of this communication is being drawn into a direction of being inconsistent. My understanding of the Church’s position is for us to love one another as He loved us. We are called to embrace all people, and work towards just laws that do not take away the dignity of life of anyone, including the loss of dignity through the separation of families. That is not contrary to the Church’s position, and is something better morally weighed, in my opinion.

 

[Elizabeth502]

My understanding of this communication is being drawn into a direction of being inconsistent. My understanding of the Church’s position is for us to love one another as He loved us. We are called to embrace all people, and work towards just laws that do not take away the dignity of life of anyone, including the loss of dignity through the separation of families. That is not contrary to the Church’s position, and is something better morally weighed, in my opinion.

Ridgerunner and others have tried to make it plain to you that “embracing all people” without limit has limited the dignity of life for many U.S. residents who are not here illegally. Therefore, unbridled illegal immigration is not in compliance with Catholic social justice. Not.

The fact that you are either unaware of that or choose to deny that makes it difficult to take your points seriously. And I actually have some authority to speak about this, since I have recently worked within these populations, and have done so previously as well. I have seen the injustice to legal residents, and it is very morally repulsive.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Sorry, Howard. I was really jesting about hippies more than about or toward you. Was not intended as an ad hominem. Sorry about that.

The point is, I don’t think – and I think most of the posters agree with me here – that you have thought through your private goals – and you do concede that your goals are private interpretations of Gospels (not Catholic Church interpretations). Sometimes we can all be prone to caricature ourselves unknowingly. I made the comparison with 'hippies" because, similarly, they often spoke in the platitudes which Frank has mentioned your doing here, and hippies rarely had concrete plans, or thought in concrete, realistic terms, just as many here see you as also doing. It was just “Peace & Love, ya-know, man,” which did not earn them serious respect as activists unless they did indeed become committed activists. (Most of them did not.) Overall, they were impractical romanticists who had a lot of fun for a time being and accomplished little.

The idealistic model of The Kingdom is, yes, a model to strive for, and yes, you are of course correct that the Church strives herself to be that model. Nevertheless, the Church is realistic, far more than you have shown yourself to be here. The Church understands that she is the guide, the moral conscience. She has never recommended Open Borders. She has never recommended the eradication of territorial sovereignty. She has spoken specifically to and about sovereignty, in fact. It is one of many reasons she does not recommend One World Government,which is the logical result of a no-boundaries world.

You seriously misunderstand Church teaching on many topics related to immigration, and your repeated statements about how you supposedly represent Christ or the Gospels or The Kingdom more than others here is in itself, frankly, offensive in its result even if your intention is not to offend.

I represent the Christian values as I understand them, through scriptures, and the Church. My understanding is my faith formed conscience.

Realistically? Show me where Christ taught ‘realistically’ in application with anything He taught, or called us, to do. The Church does not contradict scriptures, and certainly not the teachings of Christ. Is Archbishop Gomez foregoing the realistic teachings of the Church?

I actually think Pope Benedict gave the best ‘realistic’ approach to the entire immigration issue, and was careful not to exclude those where they find themselves in this moment. He spoke on working on the reasons to prevent the need to immigrate. How does that call fit in with the arguments of being economically doomed in the US? There is no hope in accepting a situation. For me, it lacks faith to think we cannot overcome any situation.

My not having a problem with open borders does not eliminate borders, as it’s being made out to be. The same as the Church does not endorse the one world government, she calls continuously for nations to work one with another to overcome problems.

 

[Ridgerunner]

My understanding of this communication is being drawn into a direction of being inconsistent. My understanding of the Church’s position is for us to love one another as He loved us. We are called to embrace all people, and work towards just laws that do not take away the dignity of life of anyone, including the loss of dignity through the separation of families. That is not contrary to the Church’s position, and is something better morally weighed, in my opinion.

No law in the U.S. compels separation of families.

The Church does not require that we give away the legitimate societal benefits of others so we can feel good about having done so.

The practical question before this country at present is whether we will have an orderly and rational immigration system or continued lawlessness and resultant chaos. I realize some prefer the lawlessness of this administration.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ridgerunner and others have tried to make it plain to you that “embracing all people” without limit has limited the dignity of life for many U.S. residents who are not here illegally. Therefore, unbridled illegal immigration is not in compliance with Catholic social justice. Not.

The fact that you are either unaware of that or choose to deny that makes it difficult to take your points seriously. And I actually have some authority to speak about this, since I have recently worked within these populations, and have done so previously as well. I have seen the injustice to legal residents, and it is very morally repulsive.

Where is the outcry from those actually losing their livelihoods? I see people taking up that cause, but it lacks the voice of the people who are directly affected. If the immigrant can cause the border and find the work, why can’t those that are already here? If there were no jobs available, would people continue to come?

Unbridled illegal immigration? Have you missed my posts stating that our immigration laws should be ‘just,’ to include the poor? That is not exactly a call for ‘unbridled illegal immigration.’ It’s a call for solutions to allow people an equatable access to our country.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No law in the U.S. compels separation of families.

The Church does not require that we give away the legitimate societal benefits of others so we can feel good about having done so.

The practical question before this country at present is whether we will have an orderly and rational immigration system or continued lawlessness and resultant chaos. I realize some prefer the lawlessness of this administration.

Then what separation of families do the men of the Church reference?

No one, on these threads that I have seen, has stated a preference of continued lawlessness. Just laws are not lawlessness, but laws in the interest of justice; and as I have tried to explain, in the interest of seeking God’s justice.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Would you recommend that one stop trying to imitate Christ as the Church calls us to do?

Why should I answer your question when you give no one the same courtesy?

When one is repeatedly told, by numerous posters, that one is not answering questions but regurgitating the same trite over and over, one might best be humble enough to look at themselves honestly. Especially if they seek to imitate Christ.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I represent the Christian values as I understand them, through scriptures, and the Church. My understanding is my faith formed conscience.

“As [you] understand them” does not correspond to the Church’s understanding of the application of those values. The Church does not literally assume a utopia in the early 21st century.

The Church does not contradict scriptures, and certainly not the teachings of Christ.

No, but you contradict the Church when you claim that the Church advocates open borders. She does not.

Is Archbishop Gomez foregoing the realistic teachings of the Church?

You are to the far left of Archbishop Gomez, and have misinterpreted him.

I actually think Pope Benedict gave the best ‘realistic’ approach to the entire immigration issue, and was careful not to exclude those where they find themselves in this moment. He spoke on working on the reasons to prevent the need to immigrate.

This is one of the many reasons I loved Pope BXVI. HIs vision happens to correlate with my own. My own advocacy is for working on the reasons to prevent the need to immigrate, which I’ve stated here on this thread but of course you have ignored. But you are not talking about that, or haven’t for dozens of pages here. You are instead talking about the supposed moral requirement of the government of the United States of America to release its borders to “all peoples.” (Your quote, don’t deny it and now backtrack on it.) You are talking about, in its consequence, injustice to low-skilled workers who are residing here legally, because of the fact that the latter currently live in the same job markets (lower-class) which attract illegal immigrants. That’s not what Pope BXVI recommended. But it’s the consequence of your “Come One, Come All” personal immigration “plan.”

 

[Ridgerunner]

Where is the outcry from those actually losing their livelihoods? I see people taking up that cause, but it lacks the voice of the people who are directly affected. If the immigrant can cause the border and find the work, why can’t those that are already here? If there were no jobs available, would people continue to come?

You could not possibly know many working class people or, if you do, they do not speak their hearts to you, for whatever reason. You would not say the above if you knew very many of them well.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Where is the outcry from those actually losing their livelihoods? I see people taking up that cause, but it lacks the voice of the people who are directly affected. If the immigrant can cause the border and find the work, why can’t those that are already here? If there were no jobs available, would people continue to come?

Again, when you speak this way, it’s clear that you know extremely little about the realities of illegal immigration. Why and how do they obtain jobs? They under-bid the market, that’s why. (Such as in construction.) Further, Ridgerunner can you some information in his recent post, but you chose to deny that information as well.

Unbridled illegal immigration? Have you missed my posts stating that our immigration laws should be ‘just,’ to include the poor? That is not exactly a call for ‘unbridled illegal immigration.’

I tire, and other posters tire, of repeating your own words to you. Go back and refer to your several posts in which you claim that all, without limit, should be welcomed, and from whatever countries, etc.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Call it smug, or holier-than-thou. It’s not true. It’s one person’s attempt to subject themselves totally to Christ, and His will. That’s not saying I am without sin, or better than anyone else. I simply disagree with how this issue should be handled, and find agreement with what the men of the Church call for.

Would you recommend that one stop trying to imitate Christ as the Church calls us to do?

This whole post reeks of holier-than-thou.

You really don’t see the smugness and lack of charity in your question to me?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why should I answer your question when you give no one the same courtesy?

When one is repeatedly told, by numerous posters, that one is not answering questions but regurgitating the same trite over and over, one might best be humble enough to look at themselves honestly. Especially if they seek to imitate Christ.

Answering questions is, in a way, sharing that hope which is in us. I apologize if my answers seem to lack connection, but if it’s simple disagreement with what I say I don’t know what to do about that. I don’t see my view changing.

I don’t see citing scriptures, or statements from the men of the Church as ‘trite.’ The scriptures, and the Church, teaches us to do our best to imitate Christ. I pray I can continue until the end of the race.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You could not possibly know many working class people or, if you do, they do not speak their hearts to you, for whatever reason. You would not say the above if you knew very many of them well.

Brother, I have always been a part of the ‘working class people.’ As I look back now, I concede I was blessed, even when I didn’t realize it. I have had many different jobs in my life, because I took what I could find for that time period. When I spoke of the seafood companies having a great impact on their business, it is something I have personal knowledge of. I know the owner, and his employees, including the employees lost. There are those position opened right now, unfilled for over a year now.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This whole post reeks of holier-than-thou.

You really don’t see the smugness and lack of charity in your question to me?

No lack of charity was intended, and I certainly don’t want to appear ‘smug.’ As for holier-than-thou, it was not intended in me attempting to convey my agreement with the men of the Church on the subject. I apologize for any misconception due to my fault.

 

[Elizabeth502]

No lack of charity was intended, and I certainly don’t want to appear ‘smug.’ As for holier-than-thou, it was not intended in me attempting to convey my agreement with the men of the Church on the subject. I apologize for any misconception due to my fault.

But when you claim to represent The Kingdom, or The Church, or Christ, or The Gospels, it is offensive, as I explained to you earlier. You do not represent those to any greater degree than the rest of us do.

You also contradict yourself, in most every post of yours. That is, your acknowledging (honestly) that your version of justice is merely your own interpretation of the Gospels is very different from asserting that you represent the Church’s views, because Howard, you do not. You represent your own views, not the views of the Roman Church.

So if you could stop suggesting that you are The Most Pure Christian Ever, you would not offend people.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But when you claim to represent The Kingdom, or The Church, or Christ, or The Gospels, it is offensive, as I explained to you earlier. You do not represent those to any greater degree than the rest of us do.

You also contradict yourself, in most every post of yours. That is, your acknowledging (honestly) that your version of justice is merely your own interpretation of the Gospels is very different from asserting that you represent the Church’s views, because Howard, you do not. You represent your own views, not the views of the Roman Church.

So if you could stop suggesting that you are The Most Pure Christian Ever, you would not offend people.

I thought I had clarified this. I represent my understandings, of the Gospel, and the teachings of the Church that help me form a faith based conscience, and the view I share.

I believe my views are of the Roman Catholic Church, and have explained my agreement through the Gospels, and statements from the men of the Church.

I have qualified that I am a sinner, and no better than any other person. That seems to have been overlooked.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I thought I had clarified this. I represent my understandings, of the Gospel, and the teachings of the Church that help me form a faith based conscience, and the view I share.

I believe my views are of the Roman Catholic Church, and have explained my agreement through the Gospels, and statements from the men of the Church.

I have qualified that I am a sinner, and no better than any other person. That seems to have been overlooked.

Try obedience. It’s humbling.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Brother, I have always been a part of the ‘working class people.’ As I look back now, I concede I was blessed, even when I didn’t realize it. I have had many different jobs in my life, because I took what I could find for that time period. When I spoke of the seafood companies having a great impact on their business, it is something I have personal knowledge of. I know the owner, and his employees, including the employees lost. There are those position opened right now, unfilled for over a year now.

Odd that employees with whom illegal immgrants are in competition for jobs have never confided in you that they resent the effects of that competition. But then, perhaps they know you better than you know them.

And if there are jobs in these seafood companies that not even illegal immigrants will take, either something is not right with the employment itself or it requires skills people don’t have and for which the employer is not willing to teach them. Lots of unemployed fishery workers in the northeast.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Odd that employees with whom illegal immgrants are in competition for jobs have never confided in you that they resent the effects of that competition. But then, perhaps they know you better than you know them.

And if there are jobs in these seafood companies that not even illegal immigrants will take, either something is not right with the employment itself or it requires skills people don’t have and for which the employer is not willing to teach them. Lots of unemployed fishery workers in the northeast.

The seafood company was ‘raided’ and he lost his workforce. Sorry, I didn’t clarify that. The irony is in the fact of the number of unemployed in this area, and yet those jobs are still open. They pay above minimum wage.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Try obedience. It’s humbling.

It’s something I pray for, and try to implement, everyday.