Amish belief about baptism...

[inJESUS]

If they do, they are not here cause they have no computers

i was entertaining the idea when i was stuck with the same idea ! can’t do it without my pc and forum ! but as long as we do not “own” the pc, we can still use it

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

yea strange.

Anyway, who would like to lead a Catholic life in the “Amish-way”?

Do you mean by declining to use certain technologies? The Amish view on technology isn’t Luddite or anti-tech as some have believed. They actually have a complicated relationship with modern technologies and have been known to try out new technologies like cell phones for a time, in order to determine whether or not the new technology will have a negative or positive impact on their society. As for living out my Catholic faith in a techno-selective society like the Amish have, well, I might try it. I don’t use cell phones, seldom watch TV, prefer to walk or ride a bike over cars, etc. My computer is about as high tech as I get and it drives me crazy half the time!

 

[inJESUS]

Do you mean by declining to use certain technologies?

not only this but also the simple life : farming, doing house work (like our gradparents)…

The Amish view on technology isn’t Luddite or anti-tech as some have believed. They actually have a complicated relationship with modern technologies and have been known to try out new technologies like cell phones for a time, in order to determine whether or not the new technology will have a negative or positive impact on their society.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

not only this but also the simple life : farming, doing house work (like our gradparents)…

You’re talking to someone raised in farm country! But I imagine the Amish style is a bit more labor-intensive. Still, I’d be tempted, if the opportunity were to present itself.

they are allowed to use them for necessity (calling a doctor, calling a client ecc) but they cannot own the telephone…they call from non-Amish phones…so you are right, it’s not that they are allergic to technology, but they use it wisely.

Yep. Some of the Amish families that live near me, and there are a lot, also “own” a single phone line collectively. If you drive through the Amish areas near my house, every couple of farms you’ll see what looks like an outhouse. That is actually where the families keep a telephone that they all share. From my understanding, you’ll find three or four families sharing the same telephone line.

 

[Publisher]

Depending on which Amish community one belongs to determines what technology are allowed.

An Amish farmer can in some communities use tractors. They can have generators to operate certain machinery, but not to power their homes. They can use phones, but not have them in their houses. In Indiana one can drive down a country dirt road along farm land and find a telephone booth…as long as it is on public land, phones are permissible.

Amish can ride in cars…but not own one. Amish can travel in trains and planes…but not own one. I had some Mennonite friends who had Amish grandparents. They came for a visit across the country via train. During their visit they enjoyed the modern convieniences my friends had…but they would never own them.

My friends parents had left the Amish community after “Rumbspringa”(sp) and joined the Mennonite church. Had they been baptized Amish, they would have stayed in the Amish community or face “the ban” aka “shunning” for breaking their baptismal covenant…baptism is taken very very seriously among those of Anabaptist tradition.

Each member is “responsible” for one another to the degree IF one member sees a “brother” breaking the Rule they are reported to the bishop and disipline is handed out.

Most Amish do not have any higher education than grade school and they are taught by Amish or Mennonite teachers if at all possible. It would be a progressive community to allow it’s members to seek higher education.

 

[MementoMori3283]

Just so that you can understand the other side here. I think there is a genuine concern about this scenario.
(1) A person is baptized as an infant by his parents.
(2) This person grows up but never.puts his faith in Christ personally.
(3) But this person believes he is Spiritually fine on the basis of an act performed by his parents when he was an infant.

{4} The parents do not fulfill their baptismal vows.

I can not see how the Holy Spirit can be denied His sanctifying role in baptism…

 

[Rocky]

To baptize one’s child is to bring the child into the faith. The parents vow to raise the child in the faith. The Holy Spirit comes to live in the child and provide the grace needed to be an adopted child of God. Receiving the Holy Spirit the child is gifted with wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and fear of the Lord. Of course, the parents have to help the child to open these gifts and bring them into the child’s life.

It saddens me that parents would not want their child to fully enter into God’s family from birth.

 

[Publisher]

To baptize one’s child is to bring the child into the faith. The parents vow to raise the child in the faith. The Holy Spirit comes to live in the child and provide the grace needed to be an adopted child of God. Receiving the Holy Spirit the child is gifted with wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and fear of the Lord. Of course, the parents have to help the child to open these gifts and bring them into the child’s life.

It saddens me that parents would not want their child to fully enter into God’s family from birth.

I can vouch that it has nothing what so ever to do with parents not wanting their child to fully enter into God’s family from birth…it has to do with the beliefs that the parents hold…you believe water baptism accomplishes something, those of us not of your faith persuasion simply do not. To imply that we do not wish our children to enter into Life is simply wrong and claiming otherwise is unworthy of one who claims to have enterend into Life already…it is not Living out of the Center of Truth to make such a claim about parents you know nothing about.

 

[HashemEchad]

At the risk of starting a pitched battle, if I had any access to that home, the wee one wouldn’t remain unbaptized any longer than it took me to get the water poured, & the words said.
I have Baptist family members who wait for their children to “choose” baptism, & it drives me crazy…Its not a matter of “fire insurance”; its a matter of, IMO, neglecting the child’s spiritual life.
Yes, if (God forbid!) a child of one of these relatives were in danger of death, I would baptize him/her.** I could not face the Judge of all the earth at the end of my life if I did any differently**.:twocents:

You would impose by force your religious beliefs on someone else? Now I understand why Orthodox Jews do not hire religious Catholics as nannies.

How would you feel if someone of another faith imposed their religion upon you or your children in such a way?

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

The Amish are such a gentle people. Remember their reaction to the family of the man who went into one of their schools and killed some of their children. They are very forgiving. I also admire their refusal to participate in war. I think we as Catholics can learn something from that.

 

[HashemEchad]

I’m with you, Zooey. I would even risk my job over it.

Hmm…do you happen to know a certain JW woman from Illinois?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

You would impose by force your religious beliefs on someone else? Now I understand why Orthodox Jews do not hire religious Catholics as nannies.

So, you’re going to judge all practicing Catholics based on the (possible) actions of a few?

 

[HashemEchad]

So, you’re going to judge all practicing Catholics based on the (possible) actions of a few?

Its been the experience of many Orthodox Jews (esp. those who came form “the Old Country”) that overzealous Catholics would baptize Jewish children. Hence, they do not usually hire them.

 

[Zooey]

You would impose by force your religious beliefs on someone else? Now I understand why Orthodox Jews do not hire religious Catholics as nannies.

How would you feel if someone of another faith imposed their religion upon you or your children in such a way?

First of all, I am not Catholic; I am a United Methodist.
But Fr John Wesley taught that the prevenient grace of God is imparted to the person being baptized. (As long as it is a proper trinitarian formula). I believe this, and yes, in the case of a child in danger of death, I would baptize the child.
I would not, I hasten to say, go about randomly baptizing children who would not be raised as practicing Christians. The case we are addressing is that of an Amish child who is terminally ill.
As far as any worry about someone else baptizing me or my child? I am all ready baptized, and my “child” looks like this:
http://bestsmileys.com/cats1/9.gif…
But in the case of a (hypothetical) child of mine? If I had a babe in danger of death, I would be eternally grateful to anyone who took it upon themselves to baptize that child! It would be a gift of immeasurable worth, and an act of true godly love for others.
If I were in danger of death, and someone were to (conditionally) baptize me, in case I might not be baptized all ready, I would be in their debt for their kindness.
The gift of God’s grace is too important, for anyone to allow such a chance to escape them…and the question of whether the one doing the baptizing was Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, or even a nonbeliever–That would never even enter my mind.

 

[HashemEchad]

I think I should elaborate as to why many very Orthodox Jews will not hire overly-religious/overly-zealous Catholic nannies, etc. It stems from what often happened in Europe in times past.

Often, in Europe, in countries where there was no separation of church and state, Catholic nannies would secretly baptize sick Jewish children, then report it to a priest, and the child would then be regarded as a ward of the church. Because in the eyes of the church, even a baptism performed unethically (i.e., without parental consent), remained a baptism, because their belief is that a sacrament was stilll received.

The Edgar Mortara case, in Bologna, Italy in 1858 was the most notorious example…the child was ripped from the arms of his parents at age 6 by Swiss Guards, because the Pope said he belonged to the church now, due to his secret baptism.

I realize that in the USA we thankfully have separation of church and state and this would not happen, but many older Jews from the old country have long memories, and they pass it down to their children. So the attitude is, better safe than sorry.

 

[Jerusha]

When non-practicing Catholics have their children baptised with no intention of raising those children in the church, that makes a mockery of what baptism is for. I think we need to learn from the Amish and Mennonites. They seem to take it much more seriously than some Catholics. (Although I think the fundamental difference is a confusion between Baptism and Confirmation)

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I think I should elaborate as to why many very Orthodox Jews will not hire overly-religious/overly-zealous Catholic nannies, etc. It stems from what often happened in Europe in times past.

Often, in Europe, in countries where there was no separation of church and state, Catholic nannies would secretly baptize sick Jewish children, then report it to a priest, and the child would then be regarded as a ward of the church. Because in the eyes of the church, even a baptism performed unethically (i.e., without parental consent), remained a baptism, because their belief is that a sacrament was stilll received.

The Edgar Mortara case, in Bologna, Italy in 1858 was the most notorious example…the child was ripped from the arms of his parents at age 6 by Swiss Guards, because the Pope said he belonged to the church now, due to his secret baptism.

I realize that in the USA we thankfully have separation of church and state and this would not happen, but many older Jews from the old country have long memories, and they pass it down to their children. So the attitude is, better safe than sorry.

So the attitude is one of discrimination because of some long ago practices? Well, that’s nice.

 

[HashemEchad]

So the attitude is one of discrimination because of some long ago practices? Well, that’s nice.

Evidently, from what the OP herself said, that attitude is still in existence among some Catholics. So I’d say its probably for the best that very religious Jews from Europe hold that attitude.

 

[MementoMori3283]

Evidently, from what the OP herself said, that attitude is still in existence among some Catholics. So I’d say its probably for the best that very religious Jews from Europe hold that attitude.

If I came up to you in the street with a hysop, sprinkled you with pig’s blood and proclaimed you a child of Baal, what, other than a lawsuit for drycleaning and mental anguish, would have occured because of my action.

 

[HashemEchad]

If I came up to you in the street with a hysop, sprinkled you with pig’s blood and proclaimed you a child of Baal, what, other than a lawsuit for drycleaning and mental anguish, would have occured because of my action.

In the USA, nothing. But had this been a country where there is no separation of church and state (remember that in most European countries there was no such separation, and what the usually Catholic ruler said went, so to speak), it could have meant what happened to Edgar Mortara.