Amish belief about baptism...

[Ceil-1]

Make fun of my concern if you wish, but, if someone with a strong belief cared that much about my child as to pray over them and sprinkle them with water, I would be touched. If a Hindu or Buddhist wanted to bless my child with incense, it would bother me not at all. Most of you scoffers wouldn’t give a hoot about my child in this life or the other.

How many truly loving people have you met? People who unconditionally care about you, want the best for you? A real concern, not just a professional or familial obligation? Someone who would go out of their way for you just because you need something? Not many, I surmise. Not all may be “religious” in the common sense of the word. But, Jesus calls his followers to have this love in them, or forget it. The Scriptures say that the others we meet in heaven will be strangers to us. Not at all whom we expect. I try to carry this concern toward every child I see. There is a deplorable lack of familial love in the world, and so, I do my best to replace it. Still working on adults, though.

Anyway, in my eyes, these children are being deprived of Sanctifying Grace and the Holy Spirit. In cases where the child is sure to die, it would be unloving of me not to seek to Baptize in this situation, given my beliefs. Do I mean the child harm? Do I do something weird to him if I say a prayer over him and sprinkle him with a little water? The woman who Baptized the Jewish child felt he was in danger of dying. It was a loving thing to do, whether or not you think it did anything for him or not. The gesture was made for his welfare.

Baptism does no harm, and the potential good is infinite.

It seems I am not the one who needs to lighten up. Whose side are you people on, anyway?

 

[HashemEchad]

Ceil,

The Catholic church used that secret baptism of Edgar Mortara to KIDNAP HIM away from his own parents (because in Italy at that time, there was no separation of church and state.)

How does anyone know the Catholic nanny didn’t do that so she COULD get the child for herself?

It was a horrible case and created a world scandal at the time. In times past Jewish children were often baptized by Catholic nursemaids so they could get the children away from their rightful parents and have them raised Catholic.

 

[LaMar]

Ceil-1, Zooey, et al:

How would it be if I hired a group of Satanists to perform rituals with all the newborn babies born into your extended family? Would that be OK with you?

 

[HashemEchad]

Ceil-1, Zooey, et al:

How would it be if I hired a group of Satanists to perform rituals with all the newborn babies born into your extended family? Would that be OK with you?

Good question.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Ceil,

The Catholic church used that secret baptism of Edgar Mortara to KIDNAP HIM away from his own parents (because in Italy at that time, there was no separation of church and state.)

How does anyone know the Catholic nanny didn’t do that so she COULD get the child for herself?

It was a horrible case and created a world scandal at the time. In times past Jewish children were often baptized by Catholic nursemaids so they could get the children away from their rightful parents and have them raised Catholic.

How do you feel about all the Jewish children who were given Catholic identities and papers and hidden in monasteries, convents, etc. during the Hitler regime, wherein thousands were saved from the Holocaust? It seems to me that this should have broken down some of the mistrust that had arisen due to former actions and times.

 

[Zooey]

When non-practicing Catholics have their children baptised with no intention of raising those children in the church, that makes a mockery of what baptism is for. I think we need to learn from the Amish and Mennonites. They seem to take it much more seriously than some Catholics. (Although I think the fundamental difference is a confusion between Baptism and Confirmation)

You know, that really helps me understand my Baptist family members better. You’re right! They are confusing Baptism & Confirmation!!

Make fun of my concern if you wish, but, if someone with a strong belief cared that much about my child as to pray over them and sprinkle them with water, I would be touched. If a Hindu or Buddhist wanted to bless my child with incense, it would bother me not at all. Most of you scoffers wouldn’t give a hoot about my child in this life or the other.

How many truly loving people have you met? People who unconditionally care about you, want the best for you? A real concern, not just a professional or familial obligation? Someone who would go out of their way for you just because you need something? Not many, I surmise. Not all may be “religious” in the common sense of the word. But, Jesus calls his followers to have this love in them, or forget it. The Scriptures say that the others we meet in heaven will be strangers to us. Not at all whom we expect. I try to carry this concern toward every child I see. There is a deplorable lack of familial love in the world, and so, I do my best to replace it. Still working on adults, though.

Anyway, in my eyes, these children are being deprived of Sanctifying Grace and the Holy Spirit. In cases where the child is sure to die, it would be unloving of me not to seek to Baptize in this situation, given my beliefs. Do I mean the child harm? Do I do something weird to him if I say a prayer over him and sprinkle him with a little water? The woman who Baptized the Jewish child felt he was in danger of dying. It was a loving thing to do, whether or not you think it did anything for him or not. The gesture was made for his welfare.

Baptism does no harm, and the potential good is infinite.

:clapping: :yup:

Ceil-1:

It seems I am not the one who needs to lighten up. Whose side are you people on, anyway?

LaMar:

Ceil-1, Zooey, et al:
How would it be if I hired a group of Satanists to perform rituals with all the newborn babies born into your extended family? Would that be OK with you?

Oh, yeah. That’s the:nope: same thing as baptizing a dying child…NOT!!!
Sheesh.
Besides, the neo-occultists I know would no more hurt a baby than they would try to fly thru the air. Of course, they aren’t satanists; just Odinists &:whacky: Druids. I’d hire either one of them to babysit any day of the week. Nicer folks you would never meet.

 

[MementoMori3283]

Good question.

which is the question I posed - I understand the nature of the authority the Church had in public matters - I speak of today and ask my question again.

If I came up to you in the street with a hysop, sprinkled you with pig’s blood and proclaimed you a child of Baal, what, other than a lawsuit for drycleaning and mental anguish, would have occured because of my action?

and as I read your reply again, I see your answer - Nothing.

So what’s the big deal, today, if you do not believe in Jesus, if your child had some water sprinkled on them accompanied by a few meaningless words? Other than you being offended, which I believe you are right to be such, what has happened?

In New York, the school system “baptizes” our children with condoms and contraception. They desire to indoctrinate an age appropriate “confirmation” of their beliefs. Of this “baptism” and “confirmation”, I am very offended as to me it means something.

A Christian baptism doesn’t mean anything to you.

 

[HashemEchad]

How do you feel about all the Jewish children who were given Catholic identities and papers and hidden in monasteries, convents, etc. during the Hitler regime, wherein thousands were saved from the Holocaust? It seems to me that this should have broken down some of the mistrust that had arisen due to former actions and times.

Most of them were actually baptized (not just given false papers) and after the war, the church tried to keep from having to hand them back to their parents…basically the kind of situation I’m talking about.

There was one rabbi, Ephraim Oshry, who went to various towns to gather up these children and reunite them with their parents.

In several cases, the directors of the places where the children were told the rabbi, “We have no Jewish children here, only Catholic ones.” But then the rabbi did an experiment: he began reciting the Shema prayer.

Immediately, most of the children covered their eyes with their hand…which is what Jewish children are taught to do before they recite the Shema prayer before going to bed. That is how he found out the director of the orphanage was lying.

One such “hidden child” was Abe Foxman, who is now head of the Jewish organization, Anti-Defamation league of B’nai B’rith. He has spoken of the experience, as have some other “hidden children”,

 

[HashemEchad]

which is the question I posed - I understand the nature of the authority the Church had in public matters - I speak of today and ask my question again.

If I came up to you in the street with a hysop, sprinkled you with pig’s blood and proclaimed you a child of Baal, what, other than a lawsuit for drycleaning and mental anguish, would have occured because of my action?

and as I read your reply again, I see your answer - Nothing.

So what’s the big deal, today, if you do not believe in Jesus, if your child had some water sprinkled on them accompanied by a few meaningless words? Other than you being offended, which I believe you are right to be such, what has happened?

In New York, the school system “baptizes” our children with condoms and contraception. They desire to indoctrinate an age appropriate “confirmation” of their beliefs. Of this “baptism” and “confirmation”, I am very offended as to me it means something.

A Christian baptism doesn’t mean anything to you.

What if a Christian child were taught by an atheist teacher to curse and spit when they hear the name of Jesus? What IF (not saying it is) that was a requirement of the atheist belief to do that?

Incidentally, about the NY public schools “baptizing” children with knowledge about condoms, contraception, sex ed, etc…did you know that as a parent, you can write a letter to the school, mandating that your child be exempted from that?

When my son was in public school, I did it. I told them that it was a violation of our RELIGIOUS beliefs to allow him to be taught that in schools. (You must say it violates your RELIGIOUS beliefs.)

 

[MementoMori3283]

What if a Christian child were taught by an atheist teacher to curse and spit when they hear the name of Jesus? What IF (not saying it is) that was a requirement of the atheist belief to do that?

I don’t see the tie in, but, I believe the “no God in school” does so in an indirect way. A child who is strong in faith will bring this information home or refute it on the spot. One who is not, may be open to…

I don’t see you point in regards to a one time event

And yes, I know about opt-outs. Unfortunately, so do they.

 

[HashemEchad]

I don’t see the tie in, but, I believe the “no God in school” does so in an indirect way. A child who is strong in faith will bring this information home or refute it on the spot. One who is not, may be open to…

I don’t see you point in regards to a one time event

And yes, I know about opt-outs. Unfortunately, so do they.

Why do you say “unfortunately, so do they”? Each time I used the opt-out process, they respected it (my son would have told me otherwise if they hadn’t!)

My son served as a theistic “mole” when he was in public school…he would rile up the classmates to oppose the science teacher when he tried to teach Darwinism as fact , so he’s pretty cool with knowing what is right and what is not. If he’d been getting a good education, I would have kept him in public school to keep acting as a theistic “mole” (he enjoyed it too!), but I wanted him to get a better education, hence, homeschooling now.

 

[MementoMori3283]

Why do you say “unfortunately, so do they”? Each time I used the opt-out process, they respected it (my son would have told me otherwise if they hadn’t!)

Forgive me for the reference of “they”, as I dislike that particular pronoun the most. “They” are Planned Parenthood and the liberal minded New York educators and politicians who believe that parents are ignorant and in need of correction for imposing virtues on their children and actually believing that they can maintain chaste relationships until marriage. “They” will do anything to circumvent the right of the parent.

 

[Contarini]

At the risk of starting a pitched battle, if I had any access to that home, the wee one wouldn’t remain unbaptized any longer than it took me to get the water poured, & the words said.
I have Baptist family members who wait for their children to “choose” baptism, & it drives me crazy…Its not a matter of “fire insurance”; its a matter of, IMO, neglecting the child’s spiritual life.
Yes, if (God forbid!) a child of one of these relatives were in danger of death, I would baptize him/her.** I could not face the Judge of all the earth at the end of my life if I did any differently**.:twocents:

I’m pretty sure that the Catholic Church forbids this. You can’t baptize infants if the parents are not willing. And I think they (the Catholic Church, not the Amish) are right on this. The child’s spiritual life is the parents’ responsibility, not yours. The idea that we have to run around saving other people’s children is, in my opinion, one of the things that makes Christians (particularly evangelicals) rightly disliked throughout the world. It’s understandably seen as a form of preying on the innocent.

God can take care of children. We don’t need to use coercive or dishonest methods in order to do His work for Him.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Most of them were actually baptized (not just given false papers) and after the war, the church tried to keep from having to hand them back to their parents…basically the kind of situation I’m talking about.

There was one rabbi, Ephraim Oshry, who went to various towns to gather up these children and reunite them with their parents.

In several cases, the directors of the places where the children were told the rabbi, “We have no Jewish children here, only Catholic ones.” But then the rabbi did an experiment: he began reciting the Shema prayer.

Immediately, most of the children covered their eyes with their hand…which is what Jewish children are taught to do before they recite the Shema prayer before going to bed. That is how he found out the director of the orphanage was lying.

I don’t defend this, but the director was not lying from a traditional Catholic perspective. Or, for that matter, from a Jewish perspective. Don’t Jews believe that to become Christian is to cease to be Jewish?

It is precisely this belief (that identity depends on baptism, not race) that both motivated and enabled these Catholics to protect these children from the murderous intent of the Nazis. That does not justify what they did. It was manipulative and wrong.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

which is the question I posed - I understand the nature of the authority the Church had in public matters - I speak of today and ask my question again.

If I came up to you in the street with a hysop, sprinkled you with pig’s blood and proclaimed you a child of Baal, what, other than a lawsuit for drycleaning and mental anguish, would have occured because of my action?

and as I read your reply again, I see your answer - Nothing.

So what’s the big deal, today, if you do not believe in Jesus, if your child had some water sprinkled on them accompanied by a few meaningless words? Other than you being offended, which I believe you are right to be such, what has happened?

In New York, the school system “baptizes” our children with condoms and contraception. They desire to indoctrinate an age appropriate “confirmation” of their beliefs. Of this “baptism” and “confirmation”, I am very offended as to me it means something.

A Christian baptism doesn’t mean anything to you.

It means a lot to Jews. It means fire and sword. It means centuries of coercion and humiliation. It means a religion that has taken the Jewish Scriptures and basic Jewish concepts, turned them upside down and inside out, and used them to attack Judaism.

Infant baptism also means many of the same things to Anabaptists.

Edwin

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Evidently, from what the OP herself said, that attitude is still in existence among some Catholics. So I’d say its probably for the best that very religious Jews from Europe hold that attitude.

You can’t judge all practicing Catholics based on what a few might do. I think that the OP’s opinion is rare and it goes against Church teaching on this issue. And you can’t justify your belief in religious discrimination in the present because of past mistakes of the Church.

 

[MementoMori3283]

It means a lot to Jews. It means fire and sword. It means centuries of coercion and humiliation. It means a religion that has taken the Jewish Scriptures and basic Jewish concepts, turned them upside down and inside out, and used them to attack Judaism.

Infant baptism also means many of the same things to Anabaptists.

Edwin

I know its an open forum, but do you mean to speak for the OP?

I may be wrong, but I don’t think I am. The person I posed the question to believes not in the Trinitarian formula and the action of the Holy Spirit caused in performing the baptism.

As for Christianity, men coerce, men humiliate, men turn upside down and inside out so as to attack; Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit that guides His Church, is incapable.

 

[MementoMori3283]

It means a lot to Jews. It means fire and sword. It means centuries of coercion and humiliation. It means a religion that has taken the Jewish Scriptures and basic Jewish concepts, turned them upside down and inside out, and used them to attack Judaism.

Infant baptism also means many of the same things to Anabaptists.

Edwin

Just having a little fun here. What do you think about this in regards to Anglicanism{Episcopalian, and every other denomination and non-denomination}:

It means a lot to Catholics. It means fire and sword. It means centuries of coercion and humiliation. It means a religion that has taken the Catholic Scriptures and basic Catholic concepts, turned them upside down and inside out, and used them to attack Catholicism.

 

[ralphinal]

This is how I see it, which means diddly squat, but I love throwing in my two cents.

Is is right to baptise a baby without the parents consent? No, but there may be times that it is needed.

Should we baptise a baby that will never learn about the faith? I think the answer is no, but again, there are times that it is needed.

Was it right to baptise Jewish Children KNOWING it was against their parent’s desires? No, but again, there might be times that it is needed.

Case in point: WWII. Some Jewish children were hidden because of it. Now, it was wrong for the people to try to keep the children away from their families. They were misguided, but wrong. They meant well, but it was wrong.

I cannot deny that Christians have done things against the Jewish people. Some of these things were purely evil, but some were bad but they had good intentions. I am not saying that makes it ok, but it does make the people look better.

 

[PetersKeys]

amishdeception.com/2020.htm