Amish belief about baptism...

[Ceil-1]

Who hates who? Who is making generalizations? There were bad people on all sides. I think you want to be hated so you can justify your hatred towards those whom you percieve as opposed to you. It is an excuse. And not even a good one. Your reaction is a childish one. It reminds me of the Mel Gibson movie and the nonsense there. And going after the pope for the words in the Mass. Yom Kippur is about God forgiving you. Not you forgiving the rest of the world. Show me where it says you must forgive us. This information was given to me by a converted Jew. I didn’t just make it up. Perhaps the merciful thing to do is to close the thread.

 

[LaMar]

Yom Kippur is about God forgiving you. Not you forgiving the rest of the world. Show me where it says you must forgive us. This information was given to me by a converted Jew. I didn’t just make it up. Perhaps the merciful thing to do is to close the thread.

I’ve found it amusing to see how much antisemitism erupts here on the sabbath, when the Hebrews won’t respond.

In any event, this particular godless heathen knows you’re full of baloney. Yom Kippur is about atonement generally. It deals with both seeking forgiveness from others, and about achieving it from G-d.

My Hebrew family members who take Judaism seriously are commanded by G-d to attempt to seek forgiveness for their faults and failings from their fellow men and women. This includes non-Jews. You’re partly right, in that the tradition implies that real atonement is next to impossible, which is why the religious chant the Kol Nidre and symbolically wipe the slate clean. That’s the way it’s been explained to me, anyway.

You’re a good example of someone who needs to get a grip on the reality of life. Your brand of fairy tale is not superior to Hashem Echad’s. From my perspective both traditions have plenty of silly stuff to poke fun at, as does my own tradition. The world will be a better place when we all quit squabbling about middle eastern myths and unproven theories, and begin working to build a better world for everyone.

 

[Ceil-1]

I accede to your obvious intellectual and moral superiorty.

 

[Zooey]

I’m pretty sure that the Catholic Church forbids this. You can’t baptize infants if the parents are not willing. And I think they (the Catholic Church, not the Amish) are right on this. The child’s spiritual life is the parents’ responsibility, not yours. The idea that we have to run around saving other people’s children is, in my opinion, one of the things that makes Christians (particularly evangelicals) rightly disliked throughout the world. It’s understandably seen as a form of preying on the innocent.

God can take care of children. We don’t need to use coercive or dishonest methods in order to do His work for Him.

Edwin

[SIGN1]
I have to say this again; this time in large letters:
I am not a Catholic. I am a member of the United Methodist Church.
I speak for myself, not for the Catholics, nor for the Methodists.
[/SIGN1]

Okay, that said, as I have all ready explained, that I would not even dream of going around randomly baptizing people. (To make them Catholic, or Methodist!).
I am not seeking out a position as a nanny with anybody.Much less am I hunting down Orthodox Jews, nor Amish, to secretly baptize the whole lot of them!! (I’m not even hunting out Mormons & Jehovah’s Witnesses either, & I tend to believe that they are in a** lot** of trouble, spiritually speaking).

We have been discussing an Amish child who is terminally ill, and in hospice care.
Given that particular set of circumstances,& knowing that the yean would otherwise die without the graces of Baptism, I would baptize the child.

If the General Conference of the UMC in North America wants to hunt me down, and excommunicate me for it– So be it.

If the pope wants to send me a sternly worded message about what a horrible thing I have just done– So be it.

If LaMar and HashemEchad want to set the B’nai Brith on me– So be it.

[SIGN1]It is better to obey God than to serve man.[/SIGN1]

“Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, baptizing in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
And lo! I am with you always, even unto the end of the world”.
Them’s my orders, and I will just keep doing my darndest to live by them, for however long He gives me yet on this earth…

I dunno…Maybe it was the open-heart surgery. It seems like, having been hauled miraculously back from the face of death, that I feel a greater urgency about obeying my marching orders from the King of Kings.
So, shoot me.http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif

 

[CBS]

they want everyone else to let them live their own lifestyle, which resembles 1890 more than anything else

It’s not exactly “their” lifestyle. That was the way everyone lived at one point, we modernized with the times, they simply stayed the same, unchanged.

 

[Swan]

You’ve got that straight. I’ve never had a better education about what lies just beneath Catholicism. I’m glad I found this site.

I was Catholic until I came to this site. Now I’m not only not Catholic, I’m at the very edge of Christianity!

BTW - I LOVE that little cat picture!!!

 

[Swan]

It means nothing to Jews and Anabaptists SPIRITUALLY, but it can be darn offensive to have someone else’s religious beliefs forced upon you.

This problem is that most folks here, while they don’t want your religion pushed on them, have not qualms about ramming theirs down your throat.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I was Catholic until I came to this site. Now I’m not only not Catholic, I’m at the very edge of Christianity!

BTW - I LOVE that little cat picture!!!

I’ve got to say that if visiting an Internet forum can destroy your faith, you didn’t have much of one to begin with.

This problem is that most folks here, while they don’t want your religion pushed on them, have not qualms about ramming theirs down your throat.

Do you have anything solid to back that up?

 

[Contarini]

[sign1]
I have to say this again; this time in large letters:
I am not a Catholic. I am a member of the United Methodist Church.
I speak for myself, not for the Catholics, nor for the Methodists.
[/sign1]

Okay, that said, as I have all ready explained, that I would not even dream of going around randomly baptizing people. (To make them Catholic, or Methodist!).
I am not seeking out a position as a nanny with anybody.Much less am I hunting down Orthodox Jews, nor Amish, to secretly baptize the whole lot of them!! (I’m not even hunting out Mormons & Jehovah’s Witnesses either, & I tend to believe that they are in a** lot** of trouble, spiritually speaking).

We have been discussing an Amish child who is terminally ill, and in hospice care.
Given that particular set of circumstances,& knowing that the yean would otherwise die without the graces of Baptism, I would baptize the child.

If the General Conference of the UMC in North America wants to hunt me down, and excommunicate me for it– So be it.

If the pope wants to send me a sternly worded message about what a horrible thing I have just done– So be it.

If LaMar and HashemEchad want to set the B’nai Brith on me– So be it.

[sign1]It is better to obey God than to serve man.[/sign1]

“Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, baptizing in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
And lo! I am with you always, even unto the end of the world”.
Them’s my orders, and I will just keep doing my darndest to live by them, for however long He gives me yet on this earth…

I dunno…Maybe it was the open-heart surgery. It seems like, having been hauled miraculously back from the face of death, that I feel a greater urgency about obeying my marching orders from the King of Kings.
So, shoot me.http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif

But your “marching orders” only apply to people who believe. You aren’t authorized to baptize people by force, nor will baptizing people by force do anyone any good.

In the case of infants who cannot speak for themselves, the parents have the right to decide for them. This is a matter of natural law. If you want to deny this, it seems to me that you ought to reject infant baptism altogether.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

This problem is that most folks here, while they don’t want your religion pushed on them, have not qualms about ramming theirs down your throat.

I really don’t get this. It’s a Catholic site dominated by a very conservative interpretation of Catholicism. You chose to come to the site. Do you expect people to be quiet about their beliefs on a site dedicated to supporting and defending those beliefs? I object to many of the things people say on this site as well. But I object to them because I think they are wrong, not because I think they are being “rammed down my throat.” Nothing is being rammed down my throat. I could leave this site right now and never return, and the people who argue with me here most fiercely would almost certainly never contact me again.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

You’re a good example of someone who needs to get a grip on the reality of life. Your brand of fairy tale is not superior to Hashem Echad’s. From my perspective both traditions have plenty of silly stuff to poke fun at, as does my own tradition. The world will be a better place when we all quit squabbling about middle eastern myths and unproven theories, and begin working to build a better world for everyone.

“A better world” is a pipe dream as likely to lead to the Holocaust as to real improvement (most likely it will lead to both, as it has). Myths are real.

Edwin

 

[Swan]

I really don’t get this. It’s a Catholic site dominated by a very conservative interpretation of Catholicism. You chose to come to the site. Do you expect people to be quiet about their beliefs on a site dedicated to supporting and defending those beliefs? I object to many of the things people say on this site as well. But I object to them because I think they are wrong, not because I think they are being “rammed down my throat.” Nothing is being rammed down my throat. I could leave this site right now and never return, and the people who argue with me here most fiercely would almost certainly never contact me again.

Edwin

I’ll answer this in the interest of full disclosure. When I first came to the site I had not come into contact with this ultra-conservative brand of Catholicism. Indeed, one of the reasons I joined the Church was because my personal experiences had been with Catholics who, IMO, were living the Gospel - the humility, compassion, mercy and love parts. I don’t see that here much. Instead the dominant belief system here seems to mix fundamentalism with the Catholicism of the MIddle Ages. I seem so many hate filled posts written by people whom I would not trust to remain non-violent in face-to-fact contact. Ineed, I think there are some here who would gladly return to burning folks at the stake.

As for the cramming it down others’ throats, I say that after reading inumerable posts written by folks who won’t even consider for a nano second that they might be wrong who also harbor the belief that they have some god given right to force everyone else to agree with them otherwise those poor folks will be damned. In other words, they are not open to an honest discussion, their interest in only in proclaiming their infallibility. There is a difference between defending your faith and attacking others, between showing mutual respect despite disagreement and presuming to tell folks they are going to hell. In short, what I expected was respectful disagreement and perhaps some meeting on middle ground, people who were able to see the value in finding things to agree on instead of seemingly looking for reasons to condemn others. I’m not saying this attitude is totally absent, but IMO 98% of the posters seem to abhor such sentiments.

So I suppose you could conclude that I was a bit naive in my expectations. After all, human nature is what it is and there is, as they say, at least one #$@* in every group. Why I tought Catholics should be the exception is beyond me. Stupid expectation, totally unrealistic. I have tried, though perhaps not always with success, to cut other folks some slack, to not lose my temper, to make my arguments in a way that fosters genuine discussion between people who, though they might disagree on some issues, are genuinely good people who want to make the world a better place. In this, I have been almost totally disapointed.

My sole reason for returning to this site is my desire to offer support to the few folks here I agree with and to offer an opinion/point of view that is different fom the “normal” one found here. I do this with the interests of those who truly have an open mind as well as those who are lurkers.

Having said that, let me close with this. Two weeks ago yesterday, on Friday the 2nd, I spent quite a bit of time here. In fact, I had started spending way too much time here engaging in one exercise in futility after another (trying to have a reasonable discussion with people who can’t seem to be reasonable). When I got off line I had a message from my sister in law. My mother in law had passed away in her sleep, during an afternoon nap, very unexpectedly. I did not come here again until yesterday and from now on my visits will be fewer, farther apart, and shorter in duration. I do have more productive, meaningful things to do with my time. Not to mention the emotional upset I experienced seeing such uncharitable behaviour from folks who seem to think someone died and made them god. Seeing the comments in this thread to which I responded compelled my to add my two cents in support of the rare logical post.

Please note that I am not including you in any of my statements. I can’t off hand remember the content of any of your posts (sorry, no offense). So this should in no way be regarded as being directed at you in any way. Indeed, I say much of this for the information of others as well as in response to your comments.

 

[Swan]

I’ve got to say that if visiting an Internet forum can destroy your faith, you didn’t have much of one to begin with.

Do you have anything solid to back that up?

My response to your first comment is this: It is exactly kind of shallow, gross generalization and twisting of words that I have come to expect here. I didn’t say that this internet site destroyed my faith. And while I didn’t go into the details of my life that have played a part in my current belief, or lact thereof, I did sort of expect any half way logical/rational a reader to simply realize that there was more to my feelings than my short comments. This was clearly an unreasonabe expectation on my part.

For you to have the audacity to suggest for even one second that you gleaned enough information from my short post to enable you to make staggeringly ridiculous statements about my faith proves the point I was trying to make: folks here have no problem whatsoever condemning strangers on almost no evidence while the very fact that they would so eagerly participate in such uncharitalbe behavior while at the same time holding themselves out to be such wonderful examples of Christianity. This, I believe, addresses your second comment. I’ve also addressed the issue in post just above this so I will not repeat myself here.

One other thing, while I have no intention of going into the details which have led to my present state of mind I would urge you to consider cutting others a little slack in matters as deeply personal as faith instead of setting yourself up as some sort of know all type who has access to the hearts and minds of others.

 

[Contarini]

I’ll answer this in the interest of full disclosure. When I first came to the site I had not come into contact with this ultra-conservative brand of Catholicism. Indeed, one of the reasons I joined the Church was because my personal experiences had been with Catholics who, IMO, were living the Gospel - the humility, compassion, mercy and love parts. I don’t see that here much. Instead the dominant belief system here seems to mix fundamentalism with the Catholicism of the MIddle Ages. I seem so many hate filled posts written by people whom I would not trust to remain non-violent in face-to-fact contact. Ineed, I think there are some here who would gladly return to burning folks at the stake.

As for the cramming it down others’ throats, I say that after reading inumerable posts written by folks who won’t even consider for a nano second that they might be wrong who also harbor the belief that they have some god given right to force everyone else to agree with them otherwise those poor folks will be damned.

Well, first of all my point stands that you could always go elsewhere, and as you say we could probably all do better things with your time. Even if you were right on the content of this site, the fact is that there’s no reason not to simply avoid the site. Most of the Catholics I know in the “real world” (and this includes some very conservative ones) roll their eyes at me when I talk about this site.

In the second place, I don’t see this site as you and some others do. (Maybe because I’ve known real fundamentalism and most of these guys seem moderate by comparison? I dunno.)
Yes, there are some fire-breathers. There are some truly obnoxious people, and some people who do seem to hold to a straightforward traditionalism that glorifies every aspect of Catholicism in the past, up to and including the intolerance and violence (these are not necessarily the same people). However, I do not find either of these groups to be dominant here. Perhaps the fact that they exist so shocks you that you think they are more numerous than they are?

For instance, the vast majority of people on this forum are crystal clear in saying that one does not have to be visibly united to Rome in this life in order to be saved. And yet, over and over again I hear Protestants on this site saying that the Catholics are claiming that all non-Catholics are going to hell. I don’t get it.

Edwin

 

[HashemEchad]

Who hates who? Who is making generalizations? There were bad people on all sides. I think you want to be hated so you can justify your hatred towards those whom you percieve as opposed to you. It is an excuse. And not even a good one. Your reaction is a childish one. It reminds me of the Mel Gibson movie and the nonsense there. And going after the pope for the words in the Mass. Yom Kippur is about God forgiving you. Not you forgiving the rest of the world. Show me where it says you must forgive us. This information was given to me by a converted Jew. I didn’t just make it up. Perhaps the merciful thing to do is to close the thread.

A “converted Jew” (I assume you mean a Jew who apostasized to another religion?) is not exactly a really credible source for authentic info on Judaism.

In the week preceding Yom Kippur, Jews are mandated to askl forgiveness of anyone they may have offended. We are required to ask forgiveness of others, and to forgive them their offenses against us.

 

[HashemEchad]

This problem is that most folks here, while they don’t want your religion pushed on them, have not qualms about ramming theirs down your throat.

I think the views of the Dalai Lama, as expressed from this interview excerpt, are something we could all learn from:
Now the fundamentalists, I think one of the main causes [of their intolerance] is because they remain isolated. Many Tibetan Buddhists when we were in Tibet, including myself, felt Buddhism is best. But now, after meeting other people, my feeling is we must respect other religions. To try to convert them is counterproductive and creates a lot of problems. More contact with other traditions helps to reduce this extreme fundamentalist sort of attitude.

RD: Do you find a shared spirit of ecumenism among religious leaders?

Dalai Lama: Yes, most religious leaders respect pluralism. But one Catholic priest in Paris many years ago, he actually tried to convert me to Christianity. That’s impossible! [chuckles]

 

[HashemEchad]

I just finished reading some of SWAN’s posts, and although I’m not Catholic, I understand and agree with what he’s saying.

When I first stumbled upon this forum a few months ago, it was right after my mother died and I foung it during a websearch about old Catholic legends my mom had once told me about (she was a former Catholic who converted to Orthodox Judaism.)

Anyway, like SWAN, my only experiences with Catholics (except for one childhood experience) were very positive: humble, kind, non-judgemental Godly people who respected the faiths of others.

Since coming here, my views have changed greatly…I no longer feel the ease I used to feel around Catholics, and as LaMar said, I find myself second guessing ones I meet now. Its sad that a few overly-zealous Catholics can ruin it like that.

What’s even more sad is that I have a long offline history of Jewish-Catholic ecumenical involvements…so I KNOW that not all Catholics are like this, but truthfully, I didn’t think ANY Catholics were still like this, with what I call a “Deus vult” mentality.

Its caused me to become more careful, esp. in regard to my children.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

My response to your first comment is this: It is exactly kind of shallow, gross generalization and twisting of words that I have come to expect here. I didn’t say that this internet site destroyed my faith. And while I didn’t go into the details of my life that have played a part in my current belief, or lact thereof, I did sort of expect any half way logical/rational a reader to simply realize that there was more to my feelings than my short comments. This was clearly an unreasonabe expectation on my part.

For you to have the audacity to suggest for even one second that you gleaned enough information from my short post to enable you to make staggeringly ridiculous statements about my faith proves the point I was trying to make: folks here have no problem whatsoever condemning strangers on almost no evidence while the very fact that they would so eagerly participate in such uncharitalbe behavior while at the same time holding themselves out to be such wonderful examples of Christianity. This, I believe, addresses your second comment. I’ve also addressed the issue in post just above this so I will not repeat myself here.

One other thing, while I have no intention of going into the details which have led to my present state of mind I would urge you to consider cutting others a little slack in matters as deeply personal as faith instead of setting yourself up as some sort of know all type who has access to the hearts and minds of others.

You’ve posted a very interesting response. I post a brief response to your brief comments. Your response is to criticize and condemn me for making too much out of your brief comments. Yet, you have no problem doing the same to me and my brief comments. You accuse me of audacity and then are audacious enough yourself to draw all manner of conclusions about me, even calling me a know it all that lacks charity. Yet, who lacks charity in their response as well? You dare assume that you know me as well you think I am claiming to know you. In other words, you’re engaging in the generalizations, condemnations, and lack of charity that you’re accusing the majority of the members of this forum of engaging in. That is very interesting.

And for the record, my comment was not meant to condemn. It was meant as a simple observation by a fallible human being. Your reaction to that is noteworthy.

 

[Contarini]

A “converted Jew” (I assume you mean a Jew who apostasized to another religion?) is not exactly a really credible source for authentic info on Judaism.

Indeed, in my opinion converting away from a religion generally makes a person a bad source for genuine understanding of that religion. (Catholics, think about all the crazy things ex-Catholics say!) Of course one can leave a religion and still be fair to it, but it’s extremely difficult.

As far as the Jewish view of forgiveness goes: as it happens I was recently sent in the mail two free issues of a (recently established?) journal of Jewish-Christian reconciliation. One issue had an article on this very subject. The gist of the article was that the main difference between the two religions concerns the forgiveness of unrepentant people. Christians see forgiveness as in some sense unilateral–I am obligated to forgive in order to create the conditions for the other person’s repentance and restoration. Jews see forgiveness as the proper response to repentance, with the goal of restoring a relationship. It’s a two-way street.

Do you think that’s fair? (I skimmed the article and may not have represented its nuances correctly–it’s and home and I’m in the office–so don’t blame the article if my account is flawed!)

Edwin

 

[HashemEchad]

Indeed, in my opinion converting away from a religion generally makes a person a bad source for genuine understanding of that religion. (Catholics, think about all the crazy things ex-Catholics say!) Of course one can leave a religion and still be fair to it, but it’s extremely difficult.

As far as the Jewish view of forgiveness goes: as it happens I was recently sent in the mail two free issues of a (recently established?) journal of Jewish-Christian reconciliation. One issue had an article on this very subject. The gist of the article was that the main difference between the two religions concerns the forgiveness of unrepentant people. Christians see forgiveness as in some sense unilateral–I am obligated to forgive in order to create the conditions for the other person’s repentance and restoration. Jews see forgiveness as the proper response to repentance, with the goal of restoring a relationship. It’s a two-way street.

Do you think that’s fair? (I skimmed the article and may not have represented its nuances correctly–it’s and home and I’m in the office–so don’t blame the article if my account is flawed!)

Edwin

That sounds totally accurate on your part!

As for converts being or not being credibly sources of info, I agree. I have met very few converts to or from a religion who were fair and balanced in their opinions of their former religion. My mom was perhaps the only one I really knew; she never badmouthed Catholicism, even though she gave it up for Judaism. She just felt closer to the Jewish understanding of God, it was not a matter of hatred for her former faith.

My husband, OTOH…! He is a convert to Judaism from (originally Baptist), then SDA. While he does not have many harsh words for the SDA church, he sure does for the Baptists!