Amoris laetitia chapter 8 is so confusing!

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And, what if a police officer stops you and tells you it’s a crime to run red lights, but you cannot comprehend ( not just pretending you can’t, but actually can’t) that this action is criminal.
No person over the age of reason could seriously not comprehend that something is wrong, when clearly told so by a person who knows well. In all honesty, anyone who says that they cannot comprehend is either below the age of reason or or pretending.
 
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In all honesty, anyone who says that they cannot comprehend is either below the age of reason or or pretending.
OR there is some mitigating factor affecting their comprehension of what is obvious to everyone else.

JPII’s law of gradualness comes into play here. The thought is that pastoral care plus grace from the sacraments will bring the couple to a right understanding so that they may work toward the marital ideal.
 
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How can people be readmitted to the sacraments if their objective state is perpetually sinful (if they cannot abstain)?

“[They] are unable to be admitted [to Holy Communion] from the fact that their state and condition of life objectively contradict that union of love between Christ and his Church, which is signified and effected by the Eucharist.” (Familiaris consortio)

"They find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God’s law. Consequently, they cannot receive Holy Communion as long as this situation persists.” (Letter Concerning Reception of Holy Communion…CDF, 1994)

"Today there are numerous Catholics in many countries who have recourse to civil divorce and contract new civil unions. In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery"160 the Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was. If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God’s law. Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists. For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities. Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ, and who are committed to living in complete continence.” (CCC#1650)

"Toward Christians who live in this situation, and who often keep the faith and desire to bring up their children in a Christian manner, priests and the whole community must manifest an attentive solicitude, so that they do not consider themselves separated from the Church, in whose life they can and must participate as baptized persons:

They should be encouraged to listen to the Word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, to contribute to works of charity and to community efforts for justice, to bring up their children in the Christian faith, to cultivate the spirit and practice of penance and thus implore, day by day, God’s grace." (CCC# 1651)

Does Pope Francis’ solutions need to correspond and be in line with such citations. It would semester that he cannot contradict Jesus, previous popes, or Magesterium statements. Are we not being naive by saying all is well if many are saying Amoris nullifies such official statements?
 
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Does Pope Francis’ solutions need to correspond and be in line with such citations. It would semester that he cannot contradict Jesus, previous popes, or Magesterium statements. Are we not being naive by saying all is well if many are saying Amoris nullifies such official statements?
As he points out in Chp. 8, the discernment process is aimed at the question of culpability. Three conditions must be met: grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent. If any one is lacking, we aren’t talking about a subjective state of mortal sin. If any one is lacking, there is no contradiction or nullification.
 
How can people be readmitted to the sacraments if their objective state is perpetually sinful (if they cannot abstain)?
That’s the problem. I went looking for some numbers, and I came across a 2014 article in Der Spiegel


"If the pope and his bishops were still harboring any illusions about their influence on young Catholics, they have now been dashed. “The church’s sexual morals are irrelevant to nine out of 10 young Catholics,” reads the BDKJ [German Catholic Youth Federation] summary. “Sex before marriage and birth control are a given in their intimate relationships.”

And hardly anyone feels guilty about it. For their grandparents’ generation, premarital sex was tantamount to living a life in sin. In sermons, Grandma and Grandpa were taught to feel “tainted” after taking sexual liberties. Today, according to the BDKJ, 96 percent of people who are in “sexual relationships” without having been married in the church have no qualms about it. Young Catholics simply do as they please, and yet they still participate in the sacraments."

But I liked this sentence the best: “A question that asked respondents about their knowledge of the doctrine of “Humanae vitae” was also the source of great confusion. “Ten out of 10 random respondents thought it referred to an invigorating body lotion,” reads a questionnaire received at the diocese in Mainz.” Yup. 100% thought it was a body lotion.

Now I have to ask a question, particularly to those black-and-whiters out there: if all of the Catholics think the most important document in the last 50 years is a body lotion, whose fault is that?

I’ve done some math–I’ve mentioned this in other threads–I’ve been to Mass every Sunday for 50 years, + holy days. But let’s just tally up the number of Sunday Masses: 2,600. In those 2,600 sermons, how many times have I heard the words “Humanae Vitae,” or heard the doctrine it champions explained? Zero. Never. Not once. Anyone think that’s weird? Or is it just me?

So let’s think about this…young people–96% of Catholics in the German survey–are at complete odds with the Church’s position on sex, marriage, etc. 100% think Humanae Vitae is a body lotion. Anyone see a problem here?

It seems to me you have a couple possible reactions. #1–raise the drawbridge, tell 96% of Catholics they are on their way to Hell, and ignore them. And when church after church and school after school close, ignore that, too. So far, that’s pretty much been what’s happening. #2–realize that the Church has been doing an absolutely abysmal job of explaining itself, to the point where even when it says things that those 96% would agree with (Amoris Laetitia is a good example), they don’t even bother to read it. They don’t even know it exists. I can’t think of a good analogy…maybe Abraham Lincoln signing the Emancipation Proclamation and putting it in a drawer and not telling anyone?
 
This is why [Pope Francis] goes on and on and ON about discernment. He is placing a huge responsibility on the pastor to correctly identify exceptional cases. No where does Pope Francis indicate that he is seeking to create a blanket policy of communion for all divorced and remarried. He is at pains to clarify this over and over.
Yes, I did notice the emphasis on the pastor’s responsibility. But that was the reason for my second point earlier, i.e. that it would seem that this new approach (i.e. the pastoral approach proposed by AL) will be very time consuming. With pastors in many countries already overburdened, what will guarantee that adequate “discernment” (i.e. investigation of the specifics of a case) will actually take place, and that pastors will not resort (out of pure necessity) to their own rules of thumb, or to largely indiscriminate approvals?

I also agree with @AUGUSTINE1102 that there is a real risk of “pastor-based relativism”. It is already the case that many Catholics parish-hop depending on their preference for a certain style or “take” on Catholicism. With decisions concerning co-habitating Catholics left up to pastoral discretion, it would seem likely that co-habitating Catholics who’d like to return to communion but expect this will be “difficult” in one parish, will turn to a more “easy-going” parish.

Btw, I agree, of course, that offering co-habitating and divorced Catholics a path back to communion is much better than condemning them and leaving it at that. And perhaps this is precisely the spirit of the document. But I don’t see why AL could not be more specific with regard to what is required of co-habitating and/or divorced individuals. Just as an example, would a timeline be too much to ask? Would it be too much to ask such individuals to commit formally to being married within, say, 3 years? This is just one simple example. Such rules would not have made AL any less merciful, but would have removed much of the interpretative leeway that it leaves in its current form, and would have spared the pastoral organization the task of having to spend a possibly very great deal of time “discerning” (i.e. investigating) specific cases.
 
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Despite the three conditions determining culpability, did not Pope St. John Paul II explain that intrinsic moral evils (don’t recall that term coming up in Amoris?), due to the gravity of the matter is always wrong and can never be justified. Regardless of subjective culpability. The divorced and remarried were not barred from the sacraments due to personal culpability but that the state is intrinsically evil. It is never justifiable. That alone, in the entire history of the Church, merited a impediment to Holy Communion. Apart from confession and amendment of life there is no path to Holy Communion. Period! How is it Pope Francis and legion of dissenting progressive clerics have greater insight than the entire history, theology, tradition, wisdom of the saints? This erroneous perspective on conscience (ignorance gives a pass) can be used to justify virtually any and everything - homosexual unions, contraception, etc. How can these “hard cases” or “irregular unions” not be license to sin? You can’t restrict it just to this one situation.
 
All I can do is direct you back to AL were Pope Francis lays out why this development of doctrine is consistent with the beliefs of the church. Your questions are far above our pay grade. These are questions for the magisterium to grapple with.

I will also remind you that doctrine does develop overtime. This is not the first instance nor will it be the last.
 
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If JPII would not have specifically and proactively restricted Communion from sexualyl active irregular marriages, I think their approach would have more grounds.

I agree that JPII saw and taught that sexual relations is what Scripturally and Apostolically constitutes the moral wrong. So, yes, it can never be justified.

There must be a willing Spirit to abstain. You cannot have remorse for a mistake, no matter how unaware or misguided, and then determine the wrong no longer exists because of the circumstances you entered under.
 
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Help me better understand what you are saying. Are you saying that it is never acceptable for one pope to refine the teachings of a past pope?
 
Our parish just had a theology professor do 6 Wednesday nights on what lead up to Humane Vitae, what it said, and the development of doctrine since. Our diocese also is inviting speakers to speak in our diocese on the issue of Humane Vitae. Two months ago it was Cardinal Francis Arinze. September is Bishop James Wall of Gallup (our former pastor😊). I have been to numerous conferences over the years with Janet Smith PhD, Christopher West, Katrina Zeno, etc. on Theology of the Body and Humane Vitae. Our diocese requires all couples getting married to undergo 6 months of marriage formation including NFP (6 x 3hr. Classes) and catechesis. This has been going on for 14 years or so.

It comes down to the fact that some dioceses have good, holy, orthodox bishops/clergy/laity and others have the opposite. We have to admit since Vatican II there has been an excessive abundance of liberalism/modernism infecting the Church like a cancer. An agenda of mercy, love, tolerance, acceptance based on secular society and feelings. A mere secularization of the Church.

I was part of a Newman Center conference on the Catholic Faith in which speakers and discussion occurred. In discussion groups almost all of the so-called “Catholic” students argued against the Church’s teaching on sexuality. I would immediately nail them to the floor (charitably of course) whether or not they have read the Catechism on the issue? Casting Canubii? Humane Vitae? Familiaris Consortio? Theology of the Body? No? Then you have no right to speak against the Church on the matter! You are just a resounding gong or useful idiot!
 
Help me better understand what you are saying. Are you saying that it is never acceptable for one pope to refine the teachings of a past pope?
Refine is fine.

Do you believe JPII understood what you think I don’t? Do you believe he thought it was only his personal line drawn to turn from sex in order to receive in a state of grace, but that another Bishop would be able to “refine” more grace than he hoped for, and say “under some situations (which your parish pastor can determine for you) you can enjoy marital sex in a state of grace, and receive!”??
 
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mrsdizzyd:
Help me better understand what you are saying. Are you saying that it is never acceptable for one pope to refine the teachings of a past pope?
Refine is fine.

Do you believe JPII understood what you think I don’t? Do you believe he thought it was only his personal line drawn to turn from sex in order to receive in a state of grace, but that another Bishop would be able to “refine” more grace than he hoped for, and say “under some situations (which your parish pastor can determine for you) you can enjoy marital sex in a state of grace, and receive!”??
Considering that I don’t see where Pope Francis has said any of the things you just suggested, I don’t see any point in responding to those questions.

If you have quotes from AL to support your interpretation and subsequent questions I’ll be happy to respond.
 
Our parish just had a theology professor do 6 Wednesday nights on what lead up to Humane Vitae, what it said, and the development of doctrine since. Our diocese also is inviting speakers to speak in our diocese on the issue of Humane Vitae.
Impressive! Where are you? (If you don’t want to say publicly, please send a private message.)
 
Just to be clear, the quote is from 1 Cor 13:
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
It is not the lack of knowledge or understanding that makes someone “a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.” It is the absence of love. If you think they do not care about that, you should consider what led them to those discussions.
 
As I said, I don’t see where Pope Francis has argued those things. Since I don’t see where he has argued it, I certainly would not argue those things.

Ask me a question based on something I’ve said and I’ll answer it.
 
Get yourself some Catholic theologians next time, who will defend and explain what the Pope teaches.

The focus of comments here has been on how not to sin. The more profitable approach is probably on how to love. This is the diemna faced by many people. A remarried person has made a commitment to love his spouse; while it may be correct for some to abandon a (false) commitment, for some the loving action is to keep to that committment, particularly if it extends to loving children as well. A blanket rule, that everyone must abandon their spouses because it is a mortal sin to be with them, is not the best answer.

That brings up history, and what happened to the first marriage. If that marriage failed, it may not have been a real marriage; an annulment might be considered. If an annulment is not possible, or if it is denied by the Church, difficult situations arise. Does one refuse to obey the call to be fruitful and multiply? Ignore the interior promptings of body and heart that call you to marry someone? I have a hard time thinking that is the loving thing to do, just because a Cardinal in Rome has denied your annulment. Accepting that judgment may be right, but it could be wrong, and the way to find out is by discernment.
 
The focus of comments here has been on how not to sin. The more profitable approach is probably on how to love. This is the diemna faced by many people. A remarried person has made a commitment to love his spouse; while it may be correct for some to abandon a (false) commitment, for some the loving action is to keep to that committment, particularly if it extends to loving children as well. A blanket rule, that everyone must abandon their spouses because it is a mortal sin to be with them, is not the best answer.
Are you saying anything about sex at all???

Is sex the elephant in the room that Pope Francis is not addressing, and therefore those of you who think the party who is acknowledging the elephant (SEX!) is not understanding?
 
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