Amount of Rome's Control on Eastern Catholics

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Within the Ukrainian Catholic Church, Rome certainly does exert a lot of control - often in competing terms with our Patriarchal Synod (whose patriarchal status Rome refuses to recognize).

But why? To what purpose? To try and placate the Russian Orthodox?
Yes, when our Patriarch Joseph Cardinal Slipyj emerged from his 18 years in Siberia for his loyalty to Rome, we Ukies acclaimed him as “Patriarch” much to Moscow’s and Rome’s chagrin.

Our Patriarchal Synod (sic) has also declared Cardinal Husar as our Patriarch and very many of our parishes commemorate him as such.

I’ve met RC’s who likewise refer to our primate as “Patriarch” - even though Rome has not yet recognized this title.

As with everything else, it is always easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission . . . 😉
At least insofar as the issue of the title “Patriarch” is concerned vis-à-vis the UGCC, I frankly cannot fault Rome. Personally, don’t see it as kowtowing to MP (and it’s no secret that I am not one of MP’s supporters). I look at the situation based on the Traditional reckoning of Patriarchal Sees, according to which the total is 5. And Lviv (or Kiev or, for that matter, Moscow) is not one of them.

That said, I want to be clear that I have no problem with, or objection to, the juridical equality of the UGCC to a patriarchate. It’s just the title that concerns me. The use of the title “Patriarch” (and therefore the designation “Patriarchal Synod” etc) to me smacks of autocephaly and hence the proliferation of “national patriarchates” among the Slav Byzantines. As I’ve said in prior threads, one solution might be to declare the UGCC a Catholicosate. That would solve the juridical issue, but it might not go down well with Byzantines in general since the concept of the Catholicosate is not in the Byzantine tradition. 🤷
 
At least insofar as the issue of the title “Patriarch” is concerned vis-à-vis the UGCC, I frankly cannot fault Rome. Personally, don’t see it as kowtowing to MP (and it’s no secret that I am not one of MP’s supporters). I look at the situation based on the Traditional reckoning of Patriarchal Sees, according to which the total is 5. And Lviv (or Kiev or, for that matter, Moscow) is not one of them.

That said, I want to be clear that I have no problem with, or objection to, the juridical equality of the UGCC to a patriarchate. It’s just the title that concerns me. The use of the title “Patriarch” (and therefore the designation “Patriarchal Synod” etc) to me smacks of autocephaly and hence the proliferation of “national patriarchates” among the Slav Byzantines. As I’ve said in prior threads, one solution might be to declare the UGCC a Catholicosate. That would solve the juridical issue, but it might not go down well with Byzantines in general since the concept of the Catholicosate is not in the Byzantine tradition. 🤷
In theory, a Patriarchal Church is out of communion during a patriarchal interregnum (The period between one patriarch and the next), while the major archiepiscopal churches still nominally are answerable to Rome during the interregnum.

In practice, the difference is negligible, at present.
 
At least insofar as the issue of the title “Patriarch” is concerned vis-à-vis the UGCC, I frankly cannot fault Rome. Personally, don’t see it as kowtowing to MP (and it’s no secret that I am not one of MP’s supporters). I look at the situation based on the Traditional reckoning of Patriarchal Sees, according to which the total is 5. And Lviv (or Kiev or, for that matter, Moscow) is not one of them.

That said, I want to be clear that I have no problem with, or objection to, the juridical equality of the UGCC to a patriarchate. It’s just the title that concerns me. The use of the title “Patriarch” (and therefore the designation “Patriarchal Synod” etc) to me smacks of autocephaly and hence the proliferation of “national patriarchates” among the Slav Byzantines. As I’ve said in prior threads, one solution might be to declare the UGCC a Catholicosate. That would solve the juridical issue, but it might not go down well with Byzantines in general since the concept of the Catholicosate is not in the Byzantine tradition. 🤷
As usual, on matters of ecclesiology, I am in agreement with my Oriental brother.

I would add that according to the First Millenium standard, only an Ecumenical Council has the authority to establish Patriarchates. That a single Patriarch would accomodate to himself a prerogative that not even the Pope claims - i.e., to create a new territorial Patriarchate - would seem to be an innovation (though innovations are not necessarily heterodox or wrong).

Of course, the Catholic Church also recognizes that custom can eventually become law for the Church, just by virtue of its long-standing existence. It would be on that basis that I can accept a new Patriarchate in the Catholic Church - i.e., the new Patriarchate will exist by virtue of the authority of custom, not by virtue of the authority of a single Patriarch to establish a new Patriarchate. I could not accept the idea that a single Patriarch has the authority to create new Patriarchates, which prerogative belongs only to the Supreme Authority of an Ecumenical Council.

I mean, just because the EO do it shouldn’t make it automatically acceptable to EC’s. Aren’t we trying to get back to the standard of the first millenium Church? Shouldn’t such a criterion for unity apply just as much to Easterns and Orientals as it does to Latins?

Sorry if I have offended anyone.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Does Rome get involved in raising and deposing Bishops, canon law, liturgy, etc. and if so how much?
I pretty much agree with the comments of brother Malphono in his post #6. I would only like to add two comments:

On the matter of raising and deposing bishops in diaspora territories:

The issue here is only the raising of bishops. The authority to depose bishops of a sui juris Patriarchal or Major-episcopal Church, even in the diaspora, belongs to the supreme head bishop of that particular Church (i,.e., the Patriarch or Major Archbishop in Synod).

Many think that the principle involved in the Pope raising a bishop in the “diaspora” (i.e., the Traditional territory of the Patriarch of the Latins [formerly, the “Patriarch of the West”]) is that the Patriarch of the Latins gets to intervene in the affairs of Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, while Eastern or Oriental Catholic Patriarchs likewise cannot do the same for Latin bishops in their Traditional territory. Thus, there arises a certain jealousy of “jurisdiction,” at least from laymen. However, it is not really about what one Patriarch can do in the Traditional territory of another Patriarch.

The real principle involved in the Pope’s raising a bishop in the “diaspora” is that only the Supreme Authority has the prerogative to establish a bishop of particular Tradition in the Traditional territory of a bishop of another particular Tradition. As explained in another thread, it is not in the historic Traditional competence of a Patriarch to be able to establish a bishopric for a sui juris Church of another Tradition in his own territorial jurisdiction. There is simply no model for such an exigency in the early Church, simply because the idea of “ritual (personal) jurisdiction within a territorial jurisdiction” did not exist in the early Church. This a later development within the Catholic Church (a reality that also exists in the Oriental Orthodox communion).

Being that only the Supreme Authority has the prerogative to do this, we can either call an Ecumenical Council each time a new bishop for a personal jurisdiction within an existing territorial jurisdiction is needed, or we can call on the Pope. So there should be no feelings of jealousy regarding what one Patriarch can do and another cannot. In fact, it is not that the Latin Patriarch is able to do for his territorial jurisdiction what an Eastern or Oriental Patriarch cannot do. What is occurring is that the Supreme Authority is providing something that is not within the historic Traditional competence of Patriarchs to provide - namely, a bishop of a certain sui juris Church Tradition within the territorial jurisdiction of a bishop of another sui juris Church Tradition.

Of course, this can change, and the recent Synod of Middle Eastern bishops expressed interest in such a change for the first time. We can wait for this to be resolved in the next Ecumenical Council, or we can ask the Pope - in conference with his brother bishops, of course - to introduce new legislation into the Canons of the universal Church which would permit the Patriarchs and Major Archbishops of sui juris Churches to have the competence to do one of two things: either (1) to raise bishops of a different sui juris Church Tradition within their territorial jurisdiction; or (2) to raise bishops of their own sui juris Church Tradition within the Traditional territorial jurisdiction of another bishop.

On the matter of Liturgy:
On this point, I just wanted to relate an interesting story. When the Coptic Catholic Church came to fruition in the 19th century, the Franciscan missionaries requested to impose Latinizations on the Coptic Catholic Church. The Pope refused the request. Instead, the Pope, ignorant of the difference between the Coptic Tradition and the Byzantine Tradition, imposed Byzantine Liturgical practices on the Coptic Catholic Church with an eye to “preserving” its “Eastern identity.” Hilarious, in hindsight.😃

Blessings,
Marduk
 
On the matter of raising and deposing bishops in diaspora territories:

There are three more points that I would like to add on this matter.

(1) Though the Bishop of Rome is involved in the selection of bishops in the “diaspora,” his involvement only pertains to the selection of a bishop for an eparchy if that bishop has had no prior episcopal ordination. In other words, the Pope is only involved in the selection of new bishops. If an eparchy in the diaspora requires a bishop, and the sui juris Church chooses to install an existing bishop (i.e., whether by the succession of a co-adjutor bishop, the promotion of an auxiliary bishop, or the transfer of a bishop from another eparchy), the Pope is not involved at all.

(2) The selection of new bishop for an eparchy in the diaspora is not a unilaterial action by the Pope, but is a thoroughly collegial action. Though the Pope can choose to reject the three candidates presented by the Synod of the sui juris Church and proffer his own, the Synod has the prerogative to reject the Pope’s choice. At that point, the selection process starts anew and continues until agreement is reached, or the canonical time limit necessary for the installation of a bishop expires.

(3) The approval of a new bishop by his sui juris head bishop is canonically called a confirmation. The approval of a new bishop by the Pope is canonically called an assent. The purpose of a confirmation is different from an assent. A confirmation does two things: (1) it grants the new bishop the power of jurisdiction, and (2) it establishes that the new bishop is in communion with every other bishop in his sui juris Church. In distinction, the Pope’s assent does two things: (1) it permits the new bishop to exercise his power of jurisdiction, and (2) it establishes that the new bishop is in communion with every other bishop of the world outside of his own sui juris Church.

So please don’t be influenced by the fearmongering of some non-Catholics that the involvement of the Pope in the selection of bishops of a sui juris Church in the diaspora is some sort of demonstration of dictatorial papal control.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Dcointin,
Could you describe what the canons are you’re referring to, and why the should be changed or removed? Thanks!
I don’t have the time to look thoroughly right now. Off hand, I can think of the Canon which requires the assent of the Pope for any new bishop. The idea of assent is a development in the Catholic Church. I theorize that the development was necessitated, from the perspective of the papacy, to ensure that new Eastern or Oriental bishops would not go into schism. IMO, this is an understandable development in the context of a Church trying to dispel the bonds of schism. Ideally and patristically, the communion of a new bishop with other bishops is realized through the communion of the head bishops. So the assent of the Pope should ideally not be necessary. The confirmation of a new bishop by the head bishop of his own sui juris Church should be sufficient, and it is the bond of communion between his head bishop and the Pope which should serve as the guarantee of the new bishop’s own communion with the Pope.

But as long as an ecclesiastical institution exists apart from the Catholic Church which can potentially draw away new bishops, it appears the papal assent is a reality Eastern and Oriental Catholics must live with. When reunion occurs, and there no longer exists a separate ecclesiastical institution that can potentially draw away new bishops into schism, I theorize that the papal assent will no longer be necessary for new bishops.

If I have the time or something jogs my memory, I will give more examples.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
The Pope has the same amount of control over the Eastern Churches that he has over the Latin Rite Church. Because he rarely chooses to wield that power in either the East or West does not mean he no longer has recourse to it. Pope Benedict demonstrated rather clearly in the case of Father Basil Kovpak in Ukraine, that the Vatican and not Cardinal Husar is the final authority. But why should this be considered a negative thing by some people. Whether your East or West you should have no fear of the Pope’s authority.
 
On this point, I just wanted to relate an interesting story. When the Coptic Catholic Church came to fruition in the 19th century, the Franciscan missionaries requested to impose Latinizations on the Coptic Catholic Church. The Pope refused the request. Instead, the Pope, ignorant of the difference between the Coptic Tradition and the Byzantine Tradition, imposed Byzantine Liturgical practices on the Coptic Catholic Church with an eye to “preserving” its “Eastern identity.” Hilarious, in hindsight.😃

Blessings,
Marduk
Do you have a reference for this?
 
The Pope has the same amount of control over the Eastern Churches that he has over the Latin Rite Church. Because he rarely chooses to wield that power in either the East or West does not mean he no longer has recourse to it. …
Correct.
 
What you wrote is explosive. Do you care if what you wrote is true? The first item I have already shown to be completely implausible. And here is a comment by Fr Neuhaus at First Things on a study “American Catholics and Catholic Americans” that is pertinent to your remark on the Reals Presence"

It is worth taking the time to source ostensible “facts” so that their reliability can be assessed. And let’s try to prevent the cropping up.of dubious “findings”.
If you want sources, you have to be content with what I can find on the internet. I recommend a book (simply a list of statistics) entitled “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators” by Kenneth Jones, which I have at home; here is some information about it: olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

And here is a compact list of statistics online:

sh1.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/Decline.html
 
Dear brother Seamus,
The Pope has the same amount of control over the Eastern Churches that he has over the Latin Rite Church. Because he rarely chooses to wield that power in either the East or West does not mean he no longer has recourse to it. Pope Benedict demonstrated rather clearly in the case of Father Basil Kovpak in Ukraine, that the Vatican and not Cardinal Husar is the final authority. But why should this be considered a negative thing by some people. Whether your East or West you should have no fear of the Pope’s authority.
I accept the universal jurisdiction of the Pope, but I don’t accept the Latin Absolutist Petrine understanding that it means the Pope has universal control. As I had debated in the Traditionalist Forum a few months ago, the Pope’s authority - like any other bishop - only extends as far as what builds up the body of Christ. It does not go beyond that. So his authority is not dependent on what he desires, but rather on what the Church needs. The ones I was debating eventually agreed that this is actually the case.

So universal jurisdiction is not universal control. Rather, it is universal solicitude based on loving pastorship, as St. Ignatius of Antioch had affirmed - that Rome has the presidency of love.

Regarding the case of Fr Basil Kovpak. What occurred there was that HB Lubomyr excommunicated Fr. Kovpak. Fr. Kovpak appealed to Rome, and Rome overturned the excommunication because, apparently, Fr. Kovpak did not go through a canonical trial before being excommunicated. But notice that Rome’s decision did not say that HB Lubomyr did not have a right to excommunicate him. Not at all. If Rome overturned the excommunication on the principle that only the Pope has the right to excommunicate, then I could agree with your assessment that “Rome has control.” But that is not what happened.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Do you have a reference for this?
I read it many years ago in the Coptic Encyclopedia (your local Coptic Orthodox Church should have a copy of it, or you can find one at either a theological library, or a metropolitan public library). I believe the name of the article was “Coptic Relations with Rome.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
So universal jurisdiction is not universal control. Rather, it is universal solicitude based on loving pastorship, as St. Ignatius of Antioch had affirmed - that Rome has the presidency of love.
Dear Marduk,

Can you please explain this principle (in general terms) in a little more depth? I have always understood jurisdiction as having the legitimate right to control - in other words, if a bishop has jurisdiction over me, I have a duty to obey him, regardless of whether I think what he is doing is prudent or not (otherwise we fall back into the SSPX attitude).

I have never seen the jurisdiction of any bishop - regardless of whether I agree with the methods he tries to take - as being an attempt at anything other than solicitude based on loving pastorship. As I explain whenever someone asks if I am subject to the Pope, I am indeed subject to him - that is to say, under his fatherly care.

Perhaps we are in agreement over the role of the Papacy, though I follow what you have called an “absolute Petrine” rather than “high Petrine” understanding of the Papacy. It would seem based on this paragraph I am quoting that the only difference is that, having come from a Lutheran (and then Roman Catholic) rather than Coptic Orthodox background, I do not experience any negative connotations from the term “universal control”.

(Lutherans actually have a very deep respect and love for the Holy Father, much more so than dissident Roman Catholics, and they regard him as the spiritual leader of all Christians. They simply do not regard his authority, or that of any other bishop or pastor, as actually binding on the faithful, because they apply a Lutheran understanding of the ministry to the Catholic Church as well. At least this is my experience of Lutheranism, having grown up close to a number of pastors and having several in my family. The difference when I became RC is that I actually became bound to the rule/jurisdiction/“control” of the Church - a voluntary binding I made quite happily, like a marriage vow or an RC priest’s vow to celibacy.)
 
Dear brother Cecilianus,

The three Petrine views apply to the relationship of the head bishop to the rest of the hierarchy. The Absolutist Petrine view exaggerates the head in relation to the body; the Low Petrine view overly diminishes the head in relation to the body; the High Petrine view is juuuuuust right.

I, like you, believe that, short of very evident sin or heresy, I am bound to follow my bishop and head bishop in all things. But I wouldn’t say my obedience to my bishop, head bishop, Patriarch or Pope would make me an advocate of the Absolutist Petrine view.

Are you sure you support the Absolutist Petrine position? If so, in what way?

Blessings,
Marduk
Dear Marduk,

Can you please explain this principle (in general terms) in a little more depth? I have always understood jurisdiction as having the legitimate right to control - in other words, if a bishop has jurisdiction over me, I have a duty to obey him, regardless of whether I think what he is doing is prudent or not (otherwise we fall back into the SSPX attitude).

I have never seen the jurisdiction of any bishop - regardless of whether I agree with the methods he tries to take - as being an attempt at anything other than solicitude based on loving pastorship. As I explain whenever someone asks if I am subject to the Pope, I am indeed subject to him - that is to say, under his fatherly care.

Perhaps we are in agreement over the role of the Papacy, though I follow what you have called an “absolute Petrine” rather than “high Petrine” understanding of the Papacy. It would seem based on this paragraph I am quoting that the only difference is that, having come from a Lutheran (and then Roman Catholic) rather than Coptic Orthodox background, I do not experience any negative connotations from the term “universal control”.

(Lutherans actually have a very deep respect and love for the Holy Father, much more so than dissident Roman Catholics, and they regard him as the spiritual leader of all Christians. They simply do not regard his authority, or that of any other bishop or pastor, as actually binding on the faithful, because they apply a Lutheran understanding of the ministry to the Catholic Church as well. At least this is my experience of Lutheranism, having grown up close to a number of pastors and having several in my family. The difference when I became RC is that I actually became bound to the rule/jurisdiction/“control” of the Church - a voluntary binding I made quite happily, like a marriage vow or an RC priest’s vow to celibacy.)
 
I read it many years ago in the Coptic Encyclopedia (your local Coptic Orthodox Church should have a copy of it, or you can find one at either a theological library, or a metropolitan public library). I believe the name of the article was “Coptic Relations with Rome.”

Blessings,
Marduk
I have problems with the assertion.

Not because I am unwilling to believe it, but that I cannot that I cannot see how a bishop of Rome in the 19th century could be so stupid. Ninth century perhaps, but not the nineteenth.

Plus, now that you mention it, the Coptic Encyclopedia could only be second hand information since the matter does not concern the Coptic church at all, but the Catholic missions in Egypt. That makes it apocryphal unless supported by corroborating evidence.

I think the account is not genuine.
 
Dear brother Cecilianus,

The three Petrine views apply to the relationship of the head bishop to the rest of the hierarchy. The Absolutist Petrine view exaggerates the head in relation to the body; the Low Petrine view overly diminishes the head in relation to the body; the High Petrine view is juuuuuust right.

I, like you, believe that, short of very evident sin or heresy, I am bound to follow my bishop and head bishop in all things. But I wouldn’t say my obedience to my bishop, head bishop, Patriarch or Pope would make me an advocate of the Absolutist Petrine view.

Are you sure you support the Absolutist Petrine position? If so, in what way?

Blessings,
Marduk
In that the bishop is no less bound to obey the Supreme Pontiff “in all things, short of very evident sin or heresy”. Example being Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre’s disobedience to the Holy See regarding the 1989 episcopal ordinations for which the SSPX ended up in schism. I can’t think of an example in the East because frankly the Pope has little reason to meddle with us, but if a metropolitan were to insist on horrible Latinizations or if he were to try to alter the Liturgy in a radical way I am pretty sure the Pope would intervene, and that he would have the right to do so.

An example where I am not sure about is the enforcing of clerical celibacy on the Ruthenian Church in the United States. Did Fr. Alexis Toth, a professor of canon law, do the right thing or not by breaking communion with Rome for Orthodoxy in order to preserve the Eastern rite among his flock (who have a canonical right to the rite by the canons of the Union of Brest) in Minneapolis? I don’t know, and I can’t answer that. On the one hand, I cannot conceive it as anything but a sin to disobey the Pope or your local bishop unless obeying him would be sin or heresy - just as it would be a sin for a monk to disobey his abbot. Whether the Pope is overstepping his bounds is a matter of his conscience, not that of the faithful. On the other hand, Archbishop Ireland clearly violated Fr. Toth’s canonical rights, and rights exist because they are good for the faithful not just because we have a right to them. Yet on the other hand, schism from the Holy See is a mortal sin, as Pope Boniface defined in Unam Sanctam: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” That statement is about as universal (it concerns every human creature) and ex cathedra as they come.

From the indefectability of the Church, I have a very difficult time conceiving how the Pope could knowingly overstep his bounds and act tyrannically. I do not think he could abolish the Byzantine Rite and impose the Latin one universally, but I also do not think the Holy Spirit would ever let him try. I cannot think of a historical example where such an overreaching did occur - do you know any?
 
I have problems with the assertion.

Not because I am unwilling to believe it, but that I cannot that I cannot see how a bishop of Rome in the 19th century could be so stupid. Ninth century perhaps, but not the nineteenth.

Plus, now that you mention it, the Coptic Encyclopedia could only be second hand information since the matter does not concern the Coptic church at all, but the Catholic missions in Egypt. That makes it apocryphal unless supported by corroborating evidence.

I think the account is not genuine.
Pope Leo XIII did oppose efforts to Latinize the Eastern Churches. Orien**talium Dignitas:
crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/674/Orientalium_Dignitas_Pope_Leo_XIII_on_the_Eastern_Churches.html

Pope John Paul wrote: “That light inspired my predecessor Pope Leo XIII to write the Apostolic Letter Orientalium Dignitas in which he sought to safeguard the significance of the Eastern traditions for the whole Church.”.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

Although no reference to liturgy is there, it is true that the Franciscans in Egypt gave the Catholic Copts 7 churches (1893) just prior to Pope Leo XIII restoration of the Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria (apostolic letter 1895, Christi Domini).

copticpedia.com/franciscans-in-egypt/

Their references are:

Gulobovich, G. Serie cronologica dei reverendissimi superiori di Terra Santa (1219-1898)—with two appendices of documents and unedited Arabic decrees. Jerusalem, 1898.
______. ed. Biblioteca Bio-Bibliografica della Terra Santa e dell’Oriente Francescano. In this series 5 volumes were edited between 1906 and 1927 in Quarracchi, Italy, covering the period from 1215-1400. Under different titles several other volumes were added through 1967.

LADISLAUS VAN ZEELST, O. F. M.

I know that the Vatican published the Coptic recensions in 1941-1952.

vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/lev/documents/varie.html
 
Pope Leo XIII did oppose efforts to Latinize the Eastern Churches. Orien**talium Dignitas:
crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/674/Orientalium_Dignitas_Pope_Leo_XIII_on_the_Eastern_Churches.html

Pope John Paul wrote: “That light inspired my predecessor Pope Leo XIII to write the Apostolic Letter Orientalium Dignitas in which he sought to safeguard the significance of the Eastern traditions for the whole Church.”.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

Although no reference to liturgy is there, it is true that the Franciscans in Egypt gave the Catholic Copts 7 churches (1893) just prior to Pope Leo XIII restoration of the Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria (apostolic letter 1895, Christi Domini).

copticpedia.com/franciscans-in-egypt/

Their references are:

Gulobovich, G. Serie cronologica dei reverendissimi superiori di Terra Santa (1219-1898)—with two appendices of documents and unedited Arabic decrees. Jerusalem, 1898.
______. ed. Biblioteca Bio-Bibliografica della Terra Santa e dell’Oriente Francescano. In this series 5 volumes were edited between 1906 and 1927 in Quarracchi, Italy, covering the period from 1215-1400. Under different titles several other volumes were added through 1967.

LADISLAUS VAN ZEELST, O. F. M.

I know that the Vatican published the Coptic recensions in 1941-1952.

vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/lev/documents/varie.html
That’s not what I am referring to at all.

I am referring to the allegation that a Pope imposed elements of the*** Byzantine*** tradition on the Coptic Catholics of Egypt.
 
On the matter of Liturgy:
On this point, I just wanted to relate an interesting story. When the Coptic Catholic Church came to fruition in the 19th century, the Franciscan missionaries requested to impose Latinizations on the Coptic Catholic Church. The Pope refused the request. Instead, the Pope, ignorant of the difference between the Coptic Tradition and the Byzantine Tradition, imposed Byzantine Liturgical practices on the Coptic Catholic Church with an eye to “preserving” its “Eastern identity.” Hilarious, in hindsight.😃
I am referring to the allegation that a Pope imposed elements of the*** Byzantine*** tradition on the Coptic Catholics of Egypt.
What little I know of the Coptic CC does place the Franciscans in the picture, at least insofar as (if memory serves) the OFM ceded some its churches (maybe 6?) in Egypt to the Copts to help give them a start. I suppose they may have tried to impose some latinizations, but considering that OFM are the Custodians of the Holy Land, one would think they would have thought twice about doing so. Plus (again, if memory serves) it was the OFM that was instrumental in preserving the Mozarabic Rite in Spain, so their record would seem to say that they respect other liturgical traditions.

According to Fr Ron Roberson at CNEWA, whom I’ve known personally, however, some latinizations were adopted in 1898 by the Coptic CC Synod. They’re unspecified, and I’ve no idea what they may be. The article doesn’t mention any byzantinization, so whether any Byzantine practices were actually imposed on the Copts by Rome I can’t say. If such was the case, though, I’d be curious to know what they were.

In any case, as I [post=7505705]mentioned[/post] in the [thread=531395]Going to a Coptic Church[/thread] thread, from what I’ve seen via telecast lately, if there were any byzantinizations, they seem to have given way to Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations.
 
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