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CeaselessMedik
Guest
Is it not true that a woman may deny another human use of her body? I’m not saying the fetus is her body, or that it’s acceptable to dismember him/her to remove him/her from the uterus. Also note I’m agnostic.
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JurisPrudens
Guest
M… What?
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Allegra
Guest
Theoretically, if the baby could safely be removed and live, then that would be one thing, but there isn’t currently any way to do that, so the only way to remove the baby from the uterus is to wait for birth or to kill the baby. The baby hasn’t done anything to deserve death. He is not responsible for “using” his mother’s body as he didn’t have a choice in the matter.
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on_the_hill
Guest
I see your point, but the baby/fetus is “using” her body because she initiated it.
As if, say, your friend hands you the keys to his vacation house and says, “Use it if you want to.” One day, you decide to take him up on the offer and stay at the house. A day or two later he shows up with a gun and blows your head off when you answer the door.
Then in court the prosecution asks him why he did it. He responds, “Sure, I gave my friend the key, but I never really thought it would be used.” And the judge dismisses the case.
As if, say, your friend hands you the keys to his vacation house and says, “Use it if you want to.” One day, you decide to take him up on the offer and stay at the house. A day or two later he shows up with a gun and blows your head off when you answer the door.
Then in court the prosecution asks him why he did it. He responds, “Sure, I gave my friend the key, but I never really thought it would be used.” And the judge dismisses the case.
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CeaselessMedik
Guest
If a baby is literally dropped on your doorstep, he would diwe if you left it therre. Does that mean you are obligated to care for him?
If she was raped?
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on_the_hill
Guest
I see your point that there may be instances when she doesn’t initiate it.
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Faxero
Guest
Of course. Each human person is ultimately responsible for his own choices, but if he’s in a state where he cannot be responsible for himself, then other human persons, compelled by conscience, are obligated to help stabilize him.
Infants are not yet at a state where they can be held responsible for their decisions, so they must be protected until they reach such a point.
This includes infants who are outside of one’s family unit (e.g unknown baby left on doorstep), for we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, and therefore we share responsibility for one another to a degree.
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nodito
Guest
Yes, I think if you are the only one able to care for an infant abandoned on your property, you do have an obligation to care for him.
You seem to be pursuing a similar line of argument as Judith Jarvis Thompson in her violinist analogy. You might consider reading this excellent article called Unstringing the Violinist which reveals many of the flaws in that line of reasoning and explains (compellingly, I believe) why abortion is not comparable to simply unplugging a parasitic human from a person who did not offer her consent.
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Allegra
Guest
Of course! If a baby was dropped on your doorstep, you would be obligated to take care of the baby as best you could until help arrived.
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Stephen_says
Guest
Hi! I have heard before the argument that a woman has a right to abortion on the basis of some form of “self-defense”, like you say, the baby is using her body, but it needs her permission to do so, otherwise it is assault.
Yes, any person has a legitimate right to self defense, though they do not have a right to excessive force. St. Thomas Aquinas says:
“If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful.”
And further, the Catechism says :
Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: (2196)
It is possible that a moderate use of force will result in the death of the attacker, and that would not be unlawful.
But to intentionally kill a baby who is not trying to kill you? There is no right to intentionally kill him/her. Even if s/he is a product of rape.
Now I realize that opens up the case of abortion to save the life of the mother, but there are plenty of threads and websites that can answer that for you
You mention that you are agnostic. I am Catholic, nice to meet you!
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St_Francis
Guest
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St_Francis
Guest
In fact, imagine this: a burglar comes to your house and leaves a baby in your dining room.
Would you be able, morally or legally, to kill the baby?
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Evania
Guest
This is a no brainer. If a baby is abandoned on your doorstep, you may not be obligated to raise him to adulthood, however you WOULD be obligated to not leave him on your doorstep to die. Your obligation is to get help for the infant, and provide safety until that help arrives.
If she was raped?
Should innocent children of rapists be condemned to death based on the actions of their father? Don’t skirt around the issue. A simple “yes” or “no” will suffice.
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CeaselessMedik
Guest
These are not my words. Looking for response
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Stephen_says
Guest
The murder of an unborn child is not a reasonable response to an unborn child ‘using’ the mother’s body.
If a three year old child is ‘using’ your body without permission, say it’s climbing on your back or something, you may remove the child and put the child on the ground. You may not throw them out of a window; that would not be reasonable.
You may not remove an unborn child from a mother, because it will probably die. The response is not proportional to the effect the child is having on the mother.
And, as an aside, for Catholics anyway, sex IS consent to pregnancy. It may not always happen, but it is always a possibility.
Peace
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CeaselessMedik
Guest
I agree, but the issue here is right, not obligation. And again, in the case of rape?
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Stephen_says
Guest
I was referring to the quote that you gave, where it said “Consent to sex isn’t consent to pregnancy”. In the case of rape, sex is not consented to, so the sentence wouldn’t make any sense. Whomever you quoted was referring specifically, I think, to consensual sex.
Still, in the case of rape, abortion is a disproportionate response to the nonconsensual pregnancy.
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Kenny_Kamel
Guest
Are referring to a legalism (ie Roe v Wade) you say “right?” The quote you posted is an abortionist rationalization.
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CeaselessMedik
Guest
I think we’re getting off track. Does a woman have the right to deny any Homo sapiens use of her body?
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