An Accursed Death?

[PRmerger]

Martyrs willingly sacrifice their lives for their cause or faith. Religious martyrs have faith in meeting with their Lord God, and they bear witness to this by their willing sacrifice. They don’t behave with cowardice.

Amen! Very Catholic, this!

You make him out to be faithless and a coward

Careful, Dialogues. It is good for you to be here on the CAFs, and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics. It appears that you have not really been exposed to what Catholicism actually is and are quite ignorant of our teachings…so it is good for you to be here.

But you cannot come here and demonstrate contempt for Catholicism.

Catholicism does not make Jesus out to be faithless and a coward.

Be very, very careful. You are treading in dangerously deep waters.

 

[PRmerger]

He even wanted his disciples to pray for him. Clearly, it was not his plan or mission to die on the cross, or he would not have been opposing it so much.

Peace.

When you interpret the Scriptures outside the lens of the Faith which gave you these Scriptures, you come up with many, many erroneous ideas.

That is why you need the Catholic Church to interpret the Scriptures for you.

And we take the Word of God in its entirety, not simply a few Scripture verses, in order to provide a correct interpretation of God’s revelation.

 

[Dialogues]

Amen! Very Catholic, this!

Careful, Dialogues. It is good for you to be here on the CAFs, and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics. It appears that you have not really been exposed to what Catholicism actually is and are quite ignorant of our teachings…so it is good for you to be here. But you cannot come here and demonstrate contempt for Catholicism. Catholicism does not make Jesus out to be faithless and a coward. Be very, very careful. You are treading in dangerously deep waters.

It is quite true that I haven’t been on a Catholic forum before, and am not conversant with differences between Catholics and Protestants etc.

My purpose is not to offend [sorry if that is how it felt], but to state what I perceive.

You see, ‘human behaviour’ is not uniform, and people respond to trials differently. Some people who haven’t got the strength to be steadfast under trials, show signs of weakness of faith. As for instance Peter did when he lied and denied Christ three times; later, when he was going to be martyred, he didn’t curse or deny. So some people repent of their former weaknesses, and grow in faith.

Christ did not approve of Peter manifesting weakness when tried. How then could he himself not remain steadfast when it was his trial? That is the issue I am pointing out. This therefore appears not to be a testimony to his humanity, but an indicator that he did not consider his mission to be an accursed death on the cross.

Note that I do not call him faithless and a coward. Far from it. I think he was acting in accordance with what he believed to be his mission. He himself said he had other sheep, not of the fold [Israelite tribe] in Judea, to go to [John 10:16], and he said he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel [Matt 15:24]. He did not consider his mission to be complete if he did not go to them, hence his earnest prayers during his own trial.

Peace.

 

[PRmerger]

It is quite true that I haven’t been on a Catholic forum before, and am not conversant with differences between Catholics and Protestants etc.

My purpose is not to offend [sorry if that is how it felt], but to state what I perceive.

Fair enough.

You see, ‘human behaviour’ is not uniform, and people respond to trials differently. Some people who haven’t got the strength to be steadfast under trials, show signs of weakness of faith. As for instance Peter did when he lied and denied Christ three times; later, when he was going to be martyred, he didn’t curse or deny. So some people repent of their former weaknesses, and grow in faith.

Yes. That is the Catholic understanding.

Christ did not approve of Peter manifesting weakness when tried.

This is erroneous again.

Christ corrected Peter. But understood Peter’s weakness.

How then could he himself not remain steadfast when it was his trial? That is the issue I am pointing out. This therefore appears not to be a testimony to his humanity, but an indicator that he did not consider his mission to be an accursed death on the cross.

Jesus embraced the Cross, Dialogues. He went to his Passion and Death willingly.

That he asked that his cup be removed is merely testimony to his humanity.

Note that I do not call him faithless and a coward. Far from it. I think he was acting in accordance with what he believed to be his mission

Then you are contradicting yourself here.

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

… Jesus embraced the Cross, Dialogues. He went to his Passion and Death willingly.

That he asked that his cup be removed is merely testimony to his humanity.

Do you not believe that what Jesus would ask for, would be heard:

*And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I think thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always. (John 11:41-42)

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7) *

So he asked for the cup of an accursed death on the cross to be removed from him, and his prayer was heard. Why would God Almighty have rejected the earnest prayer of his beloved one? Rather, it is reported that an angel was sent to strengthen him during his prayer, and he prayed more earnestly. Why would God send an angel to strengthen him in his prayers if the prayer was to go ‘unheard’?

Then you are contradicting yourself here.

Please clarify. Where is the contradiction? I think the confusion arises because you have assumed that his mission was to die an accursed death on the cross. But later events show that he could not have died on the cross. For instance, he met his disciples behind closed doors after been seen to be yet alive, and did not declare himself to the Jews. This is not the behaviour of someone who had been resurrected.

Besides, he was not given a Jewish ritual burial below the ground according to the customs simply because he was known to be alive. Had he been buried below ground as per the Jewish ritual, and then arose from an earthly grave, it could have been marvelled at as a resurrection. Moreover, his wounds were treated with aloes and myrrh, well known healing salves. This is not the Jewish burial practice.

Peace.

 

[po18guy]

Hi PRmerger,

Many thanks for your response. You are arguing that Jesus wasn’t accursed of God, but the problem is that Paul accepted the Jewish application of [Deut 21:23] on the matter, and stated that Christ did indeed become accursed of God [Galatians 3:13]. Do you disregard Paul?

Peace.

You misunderstand. Willingly offering oneself on behalf of others is not a curse.

It is love.

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

You misunderstand. Willingly offering oneself on behalf of others is not a curse. It is love.

You mean to say Paul misunderstood.

Anyhow, Jesus was praying earnestly for the cup of death to be removed [see my post #20], so it was not ‘willing’ by any means.

Peace.

 

[PRmerger]

Do you not believe that what Jesus would ask for, would be heard:

Of course. God hears all things.

Was there something in my responses that made you think I believe otherwise?

And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I think thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always. (John 11:41-42)

Amen!

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)

Amen!

So he asked for the cup of an accursed death on the cross to be removed from him, and his prayer was heard. Why would God Almighty have rejected the earnest prayer of his beloved one?

Because God understood that this was the prayer of a human merely expressing his fear. It was not a request that his mission be removed.

Rather, it is reported that an angel was sent to strengthen him during his prayer, and he prayed more earnestly. Why would God send an angel to strengthen him in his prayers if the prayer was to go ‘unheard’?

Again, let me disabuse you of the idea that his prayers were “unheard”. No one has posited such a thing. :nope:

 

[PRmerger]

Hi,

You mean to say Paul misunderstood.

Anyhow, Jesus was praying earnestly for the cup of death to be removed [see my post #20], so it was not ‘willing’ by any means.

Peace.

Of course it was willing. He was God and could have, through one act of his will, destroyed all of the Romans and Jews.

He did not.

He willingly went to the cross to save us from our sins, Dialogues.

 

[PRmerger]

I think the confusion arises because you have assumed that his mission was to die an accursed death on the cross.

I asked you this earlier, but you have not responded: do you think that a crucifixion is a delightful way to die?

Surely not.

Thus, it was an accursed death.

Not sure what you are arguing here, Dialogues. (And to be frank, I am not even sure you know what you’re trying to object to regarding the Catholic understanding of the Atonement.)

But later events show that he could not have died on the cross. For instance, he met his disciples behind closed doors after been seen to be yet alive, and did not declare himself to the Jews. This is not the behaviour of someone who had been resurrected

This is a non-sequitur. Meeting disciples behind closed doors has nothing to do with someone being unable to die on a cross.

Besides, he was not given a Jewish ritual burial below the ground according to the customs simply because he was known to be alive. Had he been buried below ground as per the Jewish ritual, and then arose from an earthly grave, it could have been marvelled at as a resurrection. Moreover, his wounds were treated with aloes and myrrh, well known healing salves. This is not the Jewish burial practice.

Jesus was buried. That much is fact.

And if his wounds were treated merely as “healing”, can you tell us why the they left him alone in a tomb, rather than tending to him?

 

[Aristocles_X]

You misunderstand. Willingly offering oneself on behalf of others is not a curse.

It is love.

You misunderstand. Willingly offering oneself on behalf of others is not a curse.

It is love.

It is according to the Author of galatians which you belive to be Paul.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole

Haydock commentary
Christ hath redeemed us from these curses; but to do this, hath made himself a curse for our sake, by taking upon himself the similitude of a sinner, and by dying upon the cross, as if he had been guilty of the greatest sins, having only charged himself with our sins, inasmuch as it is written:

It is a well known christian doctrine that Christ was cursed for Your “sins”

This passage does open a door for Jews to slander the son of Mary.

It is love

I do not see how creating imprefect beings, hell and evil, than flooding the entire Earth because the imperfect beings were imperfect and that still did not help. Instead he decides to come Down and commit suicide so that those who belive in him will not enter hell which he created in the first Place.

I do not Call that love, just a major headache.

 

[PRmerger]

It is a well known christian doctrine that Christ was cursed for Your “sins”

I am not sure that you are that conversant in Catholicism, Aristocles. But if you are going to come to a Catholic forum, you ought not be expressing “well known” Catholic doctrine incorrectly.

If you could please offer something from the Catholic magisterium that states that Christ was cursed for our sins, please offer it here.

 

[PRmerger]

Moreover, his wounds were treated with aloes and myrrh, well known healing salves. This is not the Jewish burial practice.

Peace.

I just did a bit of research, and it appears that you have been misinformed.

It was absolutely “the Jewish burial practice” to use aloes and myrrhs:

The anointing and preparing of the body requires a special blend of essential oils and spices. The common essential oils and spices used include sandalwood, myrrh, spikenard, frankincense, fir balsam, myrtle, pine, cypress and spruce with extra virgin olive oil. These oils have been used for hundreds of years for this primary purpose of preparing and purifying the dead.

Read more: ehow.com/info_8493339_jewish-burial-customs-anointing-oils.html#ixzz2uuQuvQsU

 

[Aristocles_X]

I am not sure that you are that conversant in Catholicism, Aristocles. But if you are going to come to a Catholic forum, you ought not be expressing “well known” Catholic doctrine incorrectly.

If you could please offer something from the Catholic magisterium that states that Christ was cursed for our sins, please offer it here.

Greetings PRmerger. Is the Author of Galatians who you belive to be Paul not a magisterium?

Also i backed up what i said With commentary from the famous catholic commentary of George Leo Haydock.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not see how creating imprefect beings, hell and evil,

Again, you are demonstrating a great ignorance of Catholcism, Aristocles.

God did not create anything imperfect. In fact, all that He created was declared good.

It is through the choice of our first parents that we became imperfect.

 

[PRmerger]

Greetings PRmerger. Is the Author of Galatians who you belive to be Paul not a magisterium?

Catholics do not interpret Scripture outside the lens of the Church which gave us these Scriptures.

That is why quoting Bible verses on a Catholic forum is inutile, if one wants to posit some sort of Catholic teaching regarding said verse.

Also i backed up what i said With commentary from the famous catholic commentary of George Leo Haydock.

LOL! I have never heard of Pope George Leo Haydock. Is he a cardinal or a bishop in union with the Pope?

Again, Aristocles, if you are going to come to a Catholic forum, at least have some familiarity with what it means to be Catholic.

 

[Aristocles_X]

Catholics do not interpret Scripture outside the lens of the Church which gave us these Scriptures.

That is why quoting Bible verses on a Catholic forum is inutile, if one wants to posit some sort of Catholic teaching regarding said verse.
.

Greetings PRmerger. Yes Catholics unlike the european christians(like the protestants) go by authority rather than personal rational reasoning. Which is not a bad thing. This is why the catholics are more science friendly than most protestants who are seen as backwards today in the world.

However what i was poiting out is that the verse if very Clear cut in it self, i also did provide commentary so that you would not bring the Church authority argument.

LOL! I have never heard of Pope George Leo Haydock.

Have you not heard about Haydock before? I guess you didn’t study catholicism academically than? When you are self learned you tend miss a thing or two.

I Guess you just have to wait for the more educated catholics here in the forum to join this conversation.

Peace

 

[PRmerger]

Greetings PRmerger. Yes Catholics unlike the european christians(like the protestants) go by authority rather than personal rational reasoning.

Wow.

Please cease and desist with your uninformed opinings regarding Catholicism.

Perhaps you have heard of Pope John Paul II?

He wrote an encyclical (official letter to the Church) that talks about Catholicism using Faith AND RATIONAL REASONING.

I suggest you read it first, and then we can talk about how Catholics embrace rational thought.

It can be found here: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

 

[PRmerger]

However what i was poiting out is that the verse if very Clear cut in it self, i also did provide commentary so that you would not bring the Church authority argument.

I am curious as to why you randomly capitalize words, Aristocles. What is the meaning of your capitalization of certain words?

Have you not heard about Haydock before? I guess you didn’t study catholicism academically than? When you are self learned you tend miss a thing or two.

And if you are going to try to give a little “dig” at me, perhaps you should do it with correct grammar, then.

I asked for something from the magisterium. Here is my request again:

If you could please offer something from the Catholic magisterium that states that Christ was cursed for our sins, please offer it here.

A Catholic commentator is not the same thing as the magisterium.

sigh!

 

[Aristocles_X]

Wow.

Please cease and desist with your uninformed opinings regarding Catholicism.

Perhaps you have heard of Pope John Paul II?

He wrote an encyclical (official letter to the Church) that talks about Catholicism using Faith AND RATIONAL REASONING.

I suggest you read it first, and then we can talk about how Catholics embrace rational thought.

It can be found here: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

Greetings PRmerger. It seems like you misunderstood me. I was not insulting the catholic christians. What i meant was that the catholic christians take authority over rational reason which is true.