An Accursed Death?

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Hi,

I don’t claim to be an authority on it. The issue raised is the interpretation of [Deut 21:23] by Jews, for whom it is also scripture, and the apparent acceptance of Jewish interpretation by Christians, including Paul, and most probably because of Paul, who is considered to be an authority for Christians, but not for Jews, or for Muslims for that matter. The objection is also mentioned by early Christian apologist Justin Martyr in his Dialogues with Trypho, so it is certainly not a later Jewish objection.

You allege I misunderstand Paul, in which case it is up to you to explain why Paul referred to [Deut 21:23], clearly accepting it’s application on Jesus’s alleged death on the cross. So both Jews and Christians allege that it was an accursed death on the cross, whilst Muslims say that Jesus the Messiah was blessed, and did not die an accursed death on the cross, the word ‘curse’ being considered to be an insult to Jesus. Instead, it is believed he was drawn closer to God, not far removed from His presence, which the word ‘curse’ would imply.

Peace.
You are speaking in Islamic terms, based on Islamic belief. Unfortunately many theological terms used have a substantially different meaning between the two belief systems.

I do not think that you will understand this unless you keep in mind that Christians believe in the hypostatic union of man and God in Christ. Earthly son of Mary, Divine Son of God. In Islam, Jesus is purely human, as Arius mistakenly believed. To Christians, God has revealed that His Son has two natures - human and divine. Christian thought is more easily discussed if one keeps this in mind.

Only as a union of the divine and the human could Jesus willingly take on the curse of human sin, with divine power over that sin. Any and all curse that He accepted was not placed on Him by man, but was entered into by Him, according to Gods’s plan, for the sake of all mankind. Those who tried to curse Him did so only after He had condemned them as hypocrites seven fold - a complete condemnation (Matthew 23).

As well, the Jewish authorities arrested Him by treachery, but could not kill him themselves, as their law did not allow it. Thus, they appealed to gentile authority, and even then succeeded only because Pilate feared a riot. Speaking of Paul, below is an encapsulation of How God accomplished the redemption of mankind through His only Son. Remember that this scripture has been preserved at the price of blood. As well, identical copies of Paul’s writings have been preserved in various locations throughout the ages, being discovered at different times - rendering the chance for forgery impossible.
2 Corinthians 5:16-20
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once regarded Christ from a human point of view, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, God was in Christ reconciling** the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.**
You probably know all of this. You simply do not believe it, having been taught a radically different version of both scripture and history.
 
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Dialogues:
That he was referring to [Deut 21:23] It appears that they were forced to use metaphorical language to prevent Jesus being captured again, and they all be arrested for being accomplices in preventing a sentence from being carried out.
Dialogues, St Paul is very clear in Romans 9 that Jesus is God.

I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed for ever.[a] Amen.
Sleep (and unconsciousness) is a form of death. Jesus had a near death experience, and it was as if he had come back from the dead.
No sleeping. He was speared by the Roman soldier in his heart so that blood and water came out. This was prophetized in the Old Testament.

John 19
31 Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him; 33 but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34** But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.** 35 He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth—that you also may believe. 36 For these things took place that the scripture might be fulfilled, “Not a bone of him shall be broken.” 37 And again another scripture says, “They shall look on him whom they have pierced.”

Interesting it is Dialogues that no one through history at any time has claimed to have the body of Jesus, unlike the twelve apostles, eleven of whom died as martyrs believing that Jesus was God, that he died on the cross, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

PnP
 
The problem is that Islam tends to view the scriptures as having been corrupted. Dialog is thus difficult, if not impossible. As to why no “uncorrupted” copies have ever been discovered in archaeological digs, for example, is anyone’s guess. All copies were corrupted by the time of Muhammad, apparently. Yet, the Qumran scrolls and other discoveries all read the same as the existing copies. Very curious, that bit.

What Islam will not believe is that Jesus took man’s curse upon Himself - came down from heaven and took flesh specifically for the salvation of mankind. The Quran teaches that it is not proper for God to have a son. Yet, God did not reveal this to man. Some other method was used. Christians know that Jesus received no curse form God, or from any human authority. He accomplished the will of the Father by becoming man and taking the curse upon Himself. Muslims have extreme difficulty with the belief that Christ has always (exception: the Arian heresy) been believed to be the union of the divine and the human. Do even Christians understand the complexity of that union? Of course not!

An even greater mystery is why Muslims would attempt to use Hebrew interpretive opinion or the OT scriptures against Christianity, when they supposedly have even greater problems with the Hebrews - or used to, anyway. :hmmm:
 
Hi,
I am asking you to consider the implications of what you are saying: who lied about the death and resurrection of Christ?
I hope you are familiar with the film series ‘Star Wars’, which contains the following dialogue:
  • Luke: Ben! Why didn’t you tell me? You told me that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Obi-Wan: Your father… was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and “became” Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true… from a certain point of view.
Luke: A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan: Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. … *
It seems the disciples adopted this line of thinking. Risen does not necessarily mean risen from being actually dead.
… It makes no sense to say that Jesus didn’t really die, and that his apostles just made everything up.
They seem to have had their reasons. Jesus at times used to speak in parables too. And he gave the sign of Jonah as the only miraculous sign for them.
  • “And when the people were gathered thick together, he (Jesus) began to say, this is an evil generation: they seek a sign: and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet. For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man to this generation”. (Luke 11: 29, 30). *
The miracle of Jonah was his survival though he was presumed killed by those who threw him into the rough sea.

Jonah entered the belly of the fish alive, remained there alive [from where he prayed in anguish], and came out alive. This is the traditional understanding of the well known story of Jonah. Likewise, Jesus entered the spacious tomb alive, remained there alive, and came out alive, though he was presumed dead by those who subjected him to a manner of execution by their undue pressure on Pilate. How could the sign of Jonah be appropriate to give if Jesus was dead whereas Jonah remained alive?

Peace.
 
Hi,
… Unfortunately many theological terms used have a substantially different meaning between the two belief systems.
‘Accursed’ by God means ‘separation’ from God in both Arabic and Hebrew.
I do not think that you will understand this unless you keep in mind that Christians believe in the hypostatic union of man and God in Christ.
That complicates matters even further: How can God be separated from God?!
Earthly son of Mary, Divine Son of God. In Islam, Jesus is purely human, as Arius mistakenly believed.
The Ebionites and Nazarenes did not believe Jesus was God either.
As well, the Jewish authorities arrested Him by treachery, but could not kill him themselves, as their law did not allow it.
I thought their problem was that the Roman law did not allow them. Otherwise, they would have tried to kill him themselves.
Thus, they appealed to gentile authority, and even then succeeded only because Pilate feared a riot.
Yes, Pilate tried to release Jesus as innocent, but the demand from the Jews to crucify him was too strong for him. He yielded to their demands, but did what he could to save him. He had him placed on the cross on a Friday, knowing he would have to be taken down before sunset. Thus Jesus was on the cross for 3-4 hours or so, whereas crucifixion normally took an average of 3 days, sometimes even lasting for up to 7 days.

Pilate may well have been in on a plan to save Jesus by giving him a drink drugged with opium or other sedative, which made him appear dead as he bowed his head, whereas he only fainted after finishing that drink whilst on the cross.

Peace.
 
Dialogues, St Paul is very clear in Romans 9 that Jesus is God.
Yet Jesus never said ‘I am God, worship me’. Paul was not one of the 12 disciples who were ‘trained’ by Jesus.
No sleeping. He was speared by the Roman soldier in his heart so that blood and water came out. This was prophetized in the Old Testament.
Are you suggesting that it is the pearcing that killed him? Blood and water flowing out at once is actually a sign of a pumping heart. It is well known, at least in medical circles, that corpses don’t bleed. Blood starts to congeal within seconds after death. The ‘water’ could have arisen due to pleurisy; what makes you think the heart was speared?
31 Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him; 33 but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34** But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35 He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth—that you also may believe. **36 For these things took place that the scripture might be fulfilled, “Not a bone of him shall be broken.” 37 And again another scripture says, “They shall look on him whom they have pierced.”
The legs of the two thieves were broken because they were alive, as crucifixion took days, and they were on there for 3-4 hours or so. Likewise, Jesus was alive, but only appeared dead due to the drink he was given which rendered him unconscious. The testimony referred to in verse 35 is the testimony of life given by the blood and water coming out at once, a sign of life.

Peace.
 
It seems the disciples adopted this line of thinking. Risen does not necessarily mean risen from being actually dead.
So think about this, Dialogues.

According to you, they knew that he hadn’t really died…and they went to their deaths proclaiming that he had died and risen…but it was really just a metaphorical death and resurrection…but none of them ever confessed or retracted their statement that “He is Risen!”

Is that what you want a rational person to believe?

The message that set the world on fire in the first century was not that God died and Rose, but that it was a symbolic death and resurrection?

Really?

(Removed mocking image)
 
According to you, they knew that he hadn’t really died…
Explain this passage:
John 11:4 But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness is not unto death; it is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by means of it.” …
11 Thus he spoke, and then he said to them, “Our friend Laz′arus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep.”
12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.”
So we take it he was asleep or unconscious, and not actually dead.
and they went to their deaths proclaiming that he had died and risen…but it was really just a metaphorical death and resurrection…but none of them ever confessed or retracted their statement that “He is Risen!”
What about the following verses?
John 11:13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Laz′arus is dead; 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
So, was he really dead or was he just asleep? You see, death is used as a metaphor for sleep or unconsciousness, but not the other way round to my knowledge.

Anyone can allege that others are crazy, but you do so at the cost of pointing that finger at Jesus himself.

Peace.
 
Hi,
Which were…what?
One doesn’t need to be able to fully determine their reasons to be sure that Jesus was simply ‘asleep’ in the spacious tomb where he recovered, and not actually dead. However, one can come to some reasonable conclusions.

For instance, Joseph or Arimathaea and Nicodemus would have had to be punished by the authorities for helping a sentenced ‘criminal’ escape death. If Pilate was in on the plan, and it stands to reason that he was, it would be a serious embarrassment to him for it to be disclosed that he was in league with the friends and secret disciples of Jesus, to whom he handed Jesus over.

Logically speaking, if anyone is presumed dead and later discovered to be alive, the only conclusion made is that he was mistaken for dead, and he never actually died. Numerous such instances are on record. Here is just one such recent incident:
Man wakes up in body bag at funeral home
Coroner calls incident miracle
UPDATED 12:28 PM CST Feb 28, 2014
LEXINGTON, Miss. —Leaders at a funeral home in Lexington found a person alive and kicking in a body bag.
Walter Williams woke up and surprised many people.
“I asked the coroner what happened, and the only thing he could say is that it’s a miracle,” Holmes County Sheriff Willie March said.
“I stood there and watched them put him in a body bag and zipped it up,” Williams’ nephew, Eddie Hester, said.
The coroner said he checked Williams’ pulse about 9 p.m. Wednesday and pronounced him dead at his home in Lexington. …
This guy’s pulse was checked, but none of the vital signs of Jesus were checked.

Peace.
 
‘Accursed’ by God means ‘separation’ from God in both Arabic and Hebrew.
Christians believe that Christ took human flesh so that He alone could atone for human sin. Hebrews sacrificed a paschal lamb, but no lamb could ever atone for human sin, as animals have no understanding and no guilt. Only by leaving heaven in His spirit and taking human flesh on earth could Christ atone for sin. He replaced the Paschal lamb, becoming that spotless victim for the sake of mankind.

In all of this, God was not separated from God - one of three divine Persons left heaven so as to atone for sin before returning to heaven. Angels leave heaven, but are not separated from God, as they return to heaven once their work is done. The same With Christ.

As well, it is not three Gods, but one God in three Persons. If God’s Spirit can come to earth while God Himself remains in heaven, God is not separated from God, correct?
The Ebionites and Nazarenes did not believe Jesus was God either.
Nor did the Romans. This has no effect on the truth, as many do not believe the truth.
I thought their problem was that the Roman law did not allow them. Otherwise, they would have tried to kill him themselves.
Rather, it was Jewish law which did not permit it. The Romans were free to execute whomever they found displeasing.
Yes, Pilate tried to release Jesus as innocent, but the demand from the Jews to crucify him was too strong for him. He yielded to their demands, but did what he could to save him. He had him placed on the cross on a Friday, knowing he would have to be taken down before sunset. Thus Jesus was on the cross for 3-4 hours or so, whereas crucifixion normally took an average of 3 days, sometimes even lasting for up to 7 days.
If so, then why would Pilate be surprised that Jesus was dead before evening fell? Others were paying only for their own sins, and may have lived days on the cross. Jesus was paying for the sins of the world - past, present and future. Would not that hasten his death? Remember also that He said “I have the power to lay my life down and take it up again.”
Pilate may well have been in on a plan to save Jesus by giving him a drink drugged with opium or other sedative, which made him appear dead as he bowed his head, whereas he only fainted after finishing that drink whilst on the cross.
But, these are modern fables. Such could not have been hidden from the Jewish authorities. They would have reported as much to Rome. All things are possible, very few are probable - and only one actually occurred.

I understand the Muslim view that the scriptures were somehow corrupted. This does not make sense when one realizes that ancient manuscripts that have been preserved are identical to other manuscripts which have only recently been unearthed in archeological excavations.

In the same sense, how can we be sure that the Quran is not corrupted?

Anyway, if Jesus was a prophet sent by God, what sort of God would then curse His own messenger? Makes no sense to me.
 
Hi, ‘Accursed’ by God means ‘separation’ from God in both Arabic and Hebrew.
Or, it can mean a horrific way to die.
Otherwise, they would have tried to kill him themselves.
Indeed, they did try, when he declared himself to be God, the most blasphemous thing to both Jews and Muslims alike, no?

They attempted to stone him, but Jesus walked right through it…because it was not his appointed time to die yet.
 
Yes, Pilate tried to release Jesus as innocent, but the demand from the Jews to crucify him was too strong for him. He yielded to their demands, but did what he could to save him. He had him placed on the cross on a Friday, knowing he would have to be taken down before sunset. Thus Jesus was on the cross for 3-4 hours or so, whereas crucifixion normally took an average of 3 days, sometimes even lasting for up to 7 days.

Pilate may well have been in on a plan to save Jesus by giving him a drink drugged with opium or other sedative, which made him appear dead as he bowed his head, whereas he only fainted after finishing that drink whilst on the cross.

Peace.
This type of speculation is spectacularly inutile.

As there is no evidence at all for any of the above, I could just as validly state, “Pilate placed him on the cross on a Friday knowing it was the Jewish Passover, and through it he was declaring Jesus to be the Lamb of God.”

And Pilate may well have been in on a plan to declare Jesus to be God by giving him a drink of sour wine drugged with myrrh because he was familiar with the OT prophecy:

“Instead they gave me poison for my food;
and for my thirst they gave me vinegar.”

So you see how wildly useless what you are proposing is, since no one has any evidence of either POV?
 
Yet Jesus never said ‘I am God, worship me’.
Then why did the Jews try to stone him when he declared himself to be The Great I AM?

What could be more blasphemous to Jews (and Muslims), than for a man to declare himself to be God?
 
So we take it he was asleep or unconscious, and not actually dead.
No. Lazarus was dead, Dialogues.

That is why you cannot interpret the Bible without the Catholic Church.

You come up with all sorts of erroneous ideas–ideas that are influenced by your present day understanding. Ideas that come from ignoring the semantics of the culture of the time. Ideas that come from inserting your POV into the Scriptures.

One needs the lens of the Church, so one does not come up with all sorts of bizarre ideas while quoting the Holy Book.
You see, death is used as a metaphor for sleep .
Or, sleep can be used as a metaphor for death.
 
Jonah entered the belly of the fish alive, remained there alive [from where he prayed in anguish], and came out alive. This is the traditional understanding of the well known story of Jonah. Likewise, Jesus entered the spacious tomb alive,
Firstly, I am heartened to see you acknowledge that Jesus was indeed buried. For what is a tomb save a receptacle for those who have…died.
remained there alive, and came out alive, though he was presumed dead by those who subjected him to a manner of execution by their undue pressure on Pilate. How could the sign of Jonah be appropriate to give if Jesus was dead whereas Jonah remained alive?
One has to wonder why you take one point of the story of Jonah–that he was alive–and apply it literally to Jesus, saying, “Therefore, Jesus must have been alive, too!”

But you don’t take any other of the points of the story of Jonah–that he was in the belly of a whale–and apply it literally to Jesus saying, “Therefore, Jesus must have been literally buried in the belly of a whale, too!”

Why is that, Dialogues? If you are going to take one part of the story of Jonah and make it a 1 to 1 correspondence with Christ, why ignore the rest of the story?

Why not declare that Jesus was really in Nineveh, since Jonah was really in Nineveh?
 
This guy’s pulse was checked, but none of the vital signs of Jesus were checked.

Peace.
That you have given an example of someone who was pronounced dead incorrectly is inutile, in that I could simply cite examples of thousands of folks who, once they are dead, were declared so correctly.

🤷
 
Hi,
Christians believe that Christ took human flesh so that He alone could atone for human sin.
True repentance is what is required for atonement of sins. Sins cause separation between God and mankind, leading to a spiritual death, and repentance means to turn away from sinfulness and to return to God in love.
Hebrews sacrificed a paschal lamb, but no lamb could ever atone for human sin, as animals have no understanding and no guilt.
It is the understanding of humans which is relevant here, i.e. a penitent heart, mind and soul. The animal is sacrificed, with the person willing to sacrifice his lower desires for the sake of God, just as the lower animal is sacrificed. The human being should be willing to drain the blood of his lower desires just as the animal’s blood is drained. It is not it’s flesh or blood of the animal that reaches God, rather it is the righteousness of the persons heart that reaches God. That is why sacrifices without sincere intent become empty rituals, and are not accepted by God, who looks at the heart.
He replaced the Paschal lamb, becoming that spotless victim for the sake of mankind.
The law of sacrifice is that the lower is sacrificed for the higher, never the other way round. Reflect on this, and you will realise the implications of it. Why would Jesus, being higher, be sacrificed for the sake of sinners, who are much lower? Is Jesus lower than sinners in the eyes of God?
In all of this, God was not separated from God - one of three divine Persons left heaven so as to atone for sin before returning to heaven. Angels leave heaven, but are not separated from God, as they return to heaven once their work is done. The same With Christ.
You make it sound like physical separation, whereas I was talking of spiritual separation from God. Do you believe heaven is a physical place, like earth is? Do you believe God is physical?
Rather, it was Jewish law which did not permit it. The Romans were free to execute whomever they found displeasing.
The Jews were not allowed to implement their capital punishments when it was the Romans who had authority in the land. The Jews had to take their cases of capital punishments to the Roman authorities.
If so, then why would Pilate be surprised that Jesus was dead before evening fell?
Pilate was surprised at the erroneous report that Jesus was dead because he knew quite well that crucifixion took days, not a few hours. It took an average of 3 days, sometimes even lasting up to a week. Crucifixion was a lingering type of death.
Others were paying only for their own sins, and may have lived days on the cross. Jesus was paying for the sins of the world - past, present and future. Would not that hasten his death?
Why would that hasten his death? There is no logical reason for it. People do not die on the cross because of sins. An innocent person falsely accused would also take about the same amount of time to die as would a mass murderer, all other things being the same.
Remember also that He said “I have the power to lay my life down and take it up again.”
Jesus spoke in parables. Why insist on taking it literally?
But, these are modern fables. Such could not have been hidden from the Jewish authorities. They would have reported as much to Rome.
Many things were kept hidden from the Jews. For example:
  • [John 19:38] After this Joseph of Arimathe′a, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him leave. So he came and took away his body. 39 Nicode′mus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds’ weight. *
Why did Nicodemus come to Pilate by night, in secret?! If not to discuss a plan to save Jesus, what else?
I understand the Muslim view that the scriptures were somehow corrupted. This does not make sense when one realizes that ancient manuscripts that have been preserved are identical to other manuscripts which have only recently been unearthed in archeological excavations.
The view I know if is that the gospels were not even accurate when first written, as they are not divine revelation, nor do they claim to be so themselves. Rather, it is made clear that these are the writings of some human authors. And humans make errors of judgement.
In the same sense, how can we be sure that the Quran is not corrupted?
Orientalists have admitted it. The Qur’an itself claims to be the literal word of God and guarantees that it will be preserved. The Bible makes no such claims, as it was not meant for all times or for all peoples.
Anyway, if Jesus was a prophet sent by God, what sort of God would then curse His own messenger? Makes no sense to me.
Unlike Jews and Christians, Muslims don’t believe Jesus was accursed by God. He did not die on the cross. However one may interpret Deut 21:23, it applies to someone who is hung dead, not to someone who is brought down alive, like Jesus was. Muslims believe Jesus was blessed by God, not accursed by God.

Peace.
 
Hi,
This type of speculation is spectacularly inutile.
It is very logical to say that the drink had something to do with his bowing his head, as it followed immediately. On the basis of this it could be alleged he was poisoned, if he had indeed died at that point. However, other evidence suggests he merely fainted from it, hence one logically concludes that it was a sedative such as opium.

Peace.
 
Then why did the Jews try to stone him when he declared himself to be The Great I AM?

What could be more blasphemous to Jews (and Muslims), than for a man to declare himself to be God?
The Jews were simply looking for excuses, so they made false charges. When accused of blasphemy claiming to be the son of God, he refuted them from scripture, quoting a passage in which people are referred to as Gods, even though they were not Gods. Jesus explained that they were called Gods because they received the word of God, not because they were actually Gods.

Thus, he proved to them that these are metaphorical expressions in scripture, not to be taken literally. He said they could not break his argument from the scripture. He said he himself claimed to be the son of God - which was lesser than claiming to be God Himself. See [John 10:30-36].

Peace.
 
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