An Apologists guide to Islam

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Odd then how Muhammad contradicts himself is this is the case:
*
Sunan abu dawud 4498 Muhammad then said about the pain which he died: “I continued to feel pain from the morsel which I had eaten at Khalbar. This is the time when it has cut off my aorta.”* (or this is the time of my death)

Contrast that with

Sahih muslim 5430: A Jewess came to Allah’s messenger with poisoned mutton and he took of what had been brought to him. When the effects of this poison were felt by him he called for her and asked her about that, whereupon she said:** I had determined to kill you. **Thereupon he said: Allah will never give you the power to do it.
Not really, because the poison would have killed a normal person instantly, which is what happened to his companion who ate the food with him, yet God allowed him to live 7 years in order to fulfill his mission. So poison is what killed him but not until he was able to fulfill his mission, 7 years a later. So basically for 7 years he was living off the life of God. It was one of his miracles.

I really don’t like writing rebuttals to these things, because most people who write anti-religious jargon against other religious people be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, are usually ignorant of the religion they are criticizing. And you are ignorant of Islam.

To be fair, many of arguments that Muslims write against Christians are pretty stupid as well. There are some good one, but most of them are stupid. You people mean well, but your ignorance shows. Look at this contradiction, and look at that contradiction.

I’ll give you an example, Christians love the devil, and the proof of this is that Jesus told his followers to love their enemies. And the devil is an enemy to all. So in essence, Jesus taught his followers to love the devil, **thus Christians are devil lovers. ** So if if you like I can bring up stupid arguments, all day long.

The truth of the matter is this, no true believer of any religion will convert to any other religion based on an argument. People only convert when they are dissatisfied with their religion and were looking for something else to began with.
But God didn’t tell the story the first time. It was told by Christians trying to fill in the blanks of Jesus’s early life and was never accepted as a true story but rather two extremely late stories.
We have evidence that these stories were written well after Jesus’s death and yet Muslims only accept them because they appear in the Qur’an. This was a blatant error by Muhammad. He didn’t know any better and now the stories appear in the Qur’an you read today.
It is just a stupid argument. We consider, the prophet’s of old to be our prophets, so God tell us these stories to teach Muslims of the past prophets so we can learn the important lessons from those stories, without Muslims having the need to read a book that has been tampered with.
 
TheSufi, could you please direct me to the online Muslim New Testament that has only the uncorrupted verses in it.

Doug
 
Not really, because the poison would have killed a normal person instantly, which is what happened to his companion who ate the food with him, yet
So you do agree that Muhammad was wrong when he said that she would never be given the power to do it?
God allowed him to live 7 years in order to fulfill his mission. So poison is what killed him but not until he was able to fulfill his mission, 7 years a later. So basically for 7 years he was living off the life of God. It was one of his miracles.
Wait… Didn’t the event take place in 628 and Muhammad died in 632? That’s 4 years, so where are you getting 7 from?
I’ll give you an example, Christians love the devil, and the proof of this is that Jesus told his followers to love their enemies. And the devil is an enemy to all. So in essence, Jesus taught his followers to love the devil, **thus Christians are devil lovers. ** So if if you like I can bring up stupid arguments, all day long.
You’re right, that is a stupid argument. But the existence of bad arguments doesn’t invalidate the good ones.
It is just a stupid argument. We consider, the prophet’s of old to be our prophets, so God tell us these stories to teach Muslims of the past prophets so we can learn the important lessons from those stories, without Muslims having the need to read a book that has been tampered with.
I never realized that Muslims accept the infancy Gospels as inspired text. Thank you.

Anyways, happy Canada day all. I’ll be back Tuesday from vacation. God bless you!
 
So you do agree that Muhammad was wrong when he said that she would never be given the power to do it?
Not really. Because he died when God decreed, not when she wanted him too. I guess it is a matter of prespective.
Wait… Didn’t the event take place in 628 and Muhammad died in 632? That’s 4 years, so where are you getting 7 from?
I don’t know about the dates, they can be argued. I am not going to bother looking them up because its not really that important.
You’re right, that is a stupid argument. But the existence of bad arguments doesn’t invalidate the good ones.
But you haven’t presented any good ones.
I never realized that Muslims accept the infancy Gospels as inspired text.
You have a narrow way of looking at things.
 
TheSufi, could you please direct me to the online Muslim New Testament that has only the uncorrupted verses in it.

Doug
Muslims don’t really study the New Testament. So I wouldn’t know where to find it.
 
Muslims don’t really study the New Testament. So I wouldn’t know where to find it.
Well how can muslims say that Christians corrupted the bible if muslims don’t have the uncorrupted version?

What I pointing out to you is that there is no muslim version of the bible with only the uncorrpted verses - because such a New Testament would be unreadable.

Okay, will muslims worship the Mahdi?

Doug
 
Not really. Because he died when God decreed, not when she wanted him too. I guess it is a matter of prespective.
If you’re saying the poison had nothing to do with Muhammad’s death then you are going against everything the Hadith says on the matter. Had it not been for the poison then Muhammad would have lived. He suffered from it until he died, and yet he said to the woman that Allah would never allow it to happen.

But like you said, matter of perspective I suppose. For a “bad argument” that I have presented you sure haven’t been very convincing.
I don’t know about the dates, they can be argued. I am not going to bother looking them up because its not really that important.
You’re claiming I’m living in ignorance by quoting the Hadith and knowing their background, and yet you refuse to look up the dates because of a blatant error on your part.

Please find me somewhere that says it was seven years from Muhammad’s eating the poison to his death. If you can’t I’m willing to accept that you were misinformed and would like to change your position.
But you haven’t presented any good ones.
Which is strange because Muslim street preachers in Toronto always have a hard time refuting them when they are presented.
You have a narrow way of looking at things.
I look at things historically and logically.
Muslims don’t really study the New Testament. So I wouldn’t know where to find it.
You do realize the Qur’an commands you to on multiple occasions, right?
 
If you’re saying the poison had nothing to do with Muhammad’s death then you are going against everything the Hadith says on the matter. Had it not been for the poison then Muhammad would have lived. He suffered from it until he died, and yet he said to the woman that Allah would never allow it to happen.

But like you said, matter of perspective I suppose. For a “bad argument” that I have presented you sure haven’t been very convincing.
We can sit up here any pick apart words. The hadiths related to this issue are many. Sometimes you’ll find contradicting wording between hadiths, much like you’ll find contradicting wording between the Gospels, and there are many. Contradicting words between what one understands from the Bible and what the bible actually says. And this is related to alot of things. And I am sure you are not interested in knowing the contradictions in your own bible.
You’re claiming I’m living in ignorance by quoting the Hadith and knowing their background, and yet you refuse to look up the dates because of a blatant error on your part.
Well, to be honest, you know very few hadiths, there are literally over 1,000,000 hadiths. There are probably 10,000 hadiths without repetition of situation. And I have no idea how many hadiths are related to this particular situation, and one would have to read and study all the hadiths related to this situation. This point of 4 to 7 years is a very insignificant aspect of my religion.

There are many different opinions between Islamic scholars, perhaps one scholars say 4 years and another one says 7 years. To me, I am like who cares?

For example, what was written on top of the cross when Jesus was crucified? Each Gospel says something different. But to a believing Christian, what was written top of the cross is really unimportant. the thing that is important to most believing Christians is that Jesus was crucified, that is what is important, not what was written on top of the cross. But the Muslim who is trying to convert you to Islam is trying to make this an important issue to create doubt in your heart. But it is an insignificant argument to a believing Christian. Just as this 4 or 7 years is pretty insignificant to me. So I won’t waste my time researching it.
Which is strange because Muslim street preachers in Toronto always have a hard time refuting them when they are presented.
That doesn’t surprise me, most Muslims are ignorant of their religion, just like most Christians are ignorant of their religion. I can pull up any anti-Christian site and approach most Christians and they wouldn’t know how to respond.

I know this is a fact, because when I was ignorant of my own religion, I use to be on the streets trying to convert Christians to Islam, using those websites. And most people don’t know how to respond.

One of the things that I hated most when I came across some Christians is when they would spread lies about my religion based on their misunderstanding. So I told myself I would try my best to not do the same to Christianity when I tried to convert people Islam. So I actually bought several books on Christianity and really got involved in studying Christian beliefs.

So now that I have study a little bit of Christianity, I know a few things. So now when I go to anti-Christian sites written by Muslims, I see alot of garbage. And the same is true when I go to anti-Muslim site written by Christians. 90% if not more that one finds on these anti-Christian and anti Muslim sites are garbage. To me it is proof that God is not pleased with such sites, as Jesus said, you judge a tree by the fruits it bears, and this is in reference to seeking knowledge or a teacher or a guide.

While I do not agree with Christianity, I have alot more respect for it then I did before. I studied mostly Orthodox Christianity. I even visited a Catholic monastery discussing spirituality and the sayings of Jesus with them.
I look at things historically and logically.
Well you seem to have a simplistic way of looking at things. There were several gospels. And the many gospels that existed, only 4 were deemed authentic enough to be considered scripture. Now there were Gospels that the early Church fathers accepted but for some reason it didn’t meet a certain criteria to make it to the bible, but yet they considered parts of them to be true, so you’ll find them being quoted in liturgies, and by the early Church fathers.

So if you find a some quote in the Quran, which can be found in a Gospel outside the main four Gospels in the Quran, it doesn’t mean that God considered that Gospel to be true, it just mean, God considered that quote to be true, which is why it is in the Quran.
You do realize the Qur’an commands you to on multiple occasions, right?
I do not follow Islam according your understanding, I follow Islam according to the understanding of Prophet Muhammad, his companions and those that followed them in righteousness up until the last day.

My guess, you probably misunderstood the quote.
 
Well how can muslims say that Christians corrupted the bible if muslims don’t have the uncorrupted version?

What I pointing out to you is that there is no muslim version of the bible with only the uncorrpted verses - because such a New Testament would be unreadable.

Okay, will muslims worship the Mahdi?

Doug
We don’t worship men.
 
We don’t worship men.
Okay, well said. So to my fellow Christians, there is no way that the Antichrist who in the last 42 months of his career as the Antichrist-beast in Revelation 13, who will be worshiped by the entire world - except for the elect, can be a muslim !

On the other hand, the muslim prophecies of the dajjaal (the muslim version of the Antichrist) will just not come to pass. In Islam, as I understand it, the dajjaal ultimately gets into a battle with the Mahdi, and with the dajjaal winning the muslim Jesus - Isa - returns coming to the rescue and defeats the dajjaal.

This concept of the end times prophecies by the muslims has prompted some Christians to speculate that the Antichrist will be the muslim Mahdi, and the false prophet (the second beast in Revelation 13) to be the muslim Jesus -Isa. However, there is no persons in Christian end times prophecies bible passages to play the part of the dajjaal.

Which is understanding because the muslim prophecies have all been a fabrication of the writers of the hadiths, who plagiarized the real prophecies in the bible - except their fabricated version is incompatible.

That the muslims will never worship a man, as “The Suffi” said, goes to reinforce (1) that a muslim Mahdi personality cannot be the Antichrist. Thank you, Mr. Suffi.

(2) that when the true biblical prophecies come to pass concerning the Antichrist-beast being worshiped in Revelation 13 - Islam will no longer exist :eek: at that point in time. Sorry Mr. Suffi.

So what happens to Islam that its followers will fall away? It is simple, just prior to the 7 years of the Antichrist’s time, having arrived in Israel, perceived to be their King Messiah (he a has to be a Jew and his religion, at least on the surface must be Judaism, not Islam) - there will be the invasion of Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 38. The muslim nations teamed with Russian and the “stan” countries will attempt to invade Israel. At that point God is going to judge Islam, the religion founded by Satan, for its violence, its denial of Israel, and its lies about the bible the Word of God, and its misrepresentation of the God of the bible as being the Muslim Allah. All the muslim armies will be destroyed, a sixth of the Russians will survive, turned back, only to return 7 years later at Armageddon.

Many of the muslim middle east countries will be decimated, all of which will expose Islam for the lie it is, so much so that afterward, the followers of Islam will be as rare as Communists from the old Soviet Union, which fell in about a week’s time.

The Antichrist, the little horn of Daniel 7, head of the ten king EU ruling body (yet to formulate, but appears to be very close) will stage his counter invasion force in Greece (Daniel 8) to come to the aid of Israel. He will arrive a day late and a dollar short.
But to the Jews, it will appear to them that he is their long awaited King Messiah, great promised king of Israel descended from king David - to lead them into the messianic age of peace and safety. The Jews believe, having been taught by the RAMBAM, that the Messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. Which the Antichrist little horn’s actions will fit right in with their expectations.

The Antichrist, arriving as their messiah, the Prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26-27, will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for a period of 7 years. The 7 years confirmation requirement is spelled out in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 as a law that Moses made to future generations that every 7 years they would commemorate the reading of instructions to that second generation to go in and possess the land. The first generation coming out of Egypt did not go in because they were afraid of the giants occupying the land - the Rephilim.

Sorry Mr. Suffi - but God gave the land to the Jews - in spite of what Islam says or thinks.

Deuteronomy 31:10-11, the commemorative reading to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant under which God promised the land of Israel to the Jews, done on a 7 year cycle has not be done for at least 2000 years, as the Jews have been dispersed.

Gaining control of Jerusalem, in 1967, the Jews made a critical error in allowing the Muslims to maintain control of the temple mount, which no Jew can even be allowed to stand their and pray. Remember no compulsion of religion in Islam… big lie number 15 million coming out of Islam.

Anyway, the other requirement in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 is that the 7 year cyclic commenorative reading must be done according to the text from the place of God’s choosing - which the Jews believe to be the Temple Mount. Which since the muslims control the Temple Mount, it ain’t going to happen because that reading would confirm that God gave the land to the Jews. And not to the followers of Mohammed.

Back to Ezekiel 39, as to proof of this, the destruction and God’s judgment on Islam, followed by the 7 years, there are two feasts. The first feast is on Gog’s army, in Ezekiel 39:4. Then there follows in the verses details about the cleanup and a 7 year period of burning the remains of Gog’s war implements.

…to be continued in next post.
 
continued…

That 7 years equates to the 7 years of Daniel 9:26-27, which is the 7 years cycle that the Antichrist as the Jews’ perceived king messiah initiates. About halfway through the 7 years, the Antichrist will reveal himself as the man of sin, going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God. The Jews will be mortified and will drop him at their messiah like a hot potato. :eek:

The cleanup of Gog’s army ends in Ezekiel 39:16 . Then in Ezekiel 39:17-20, Ezekiel is given another set of prophecies, another feast that is much larger and is in fact the Armageddon feast, at the end of the 7 years. The Ezekiel 39:17-20 feast is the same feast in Revelation 19:17-18, when Jesus returns to this earth to reign and rule from Jerusalem.

Mr. Suffi, I recall you saying that muslims don’t study the new testament. I would encourage you to give it a try regarding the end times prophecies. Islam, with 20% of the world’s population is a factor but not in the way muslims think.

I am 64 and have over 40 years study on the end times prophecies, focusing in large part on the career of the forthcoming Antichrist. The muslims prophecies you are following from the hadiths are just not going to materialize, even in the bizarro theory that some Christians have concerning the Mahdi being the Antichrist - which you have made my point that he can’t be. At most, a Madhi personality could figure in as the personification of Gog in the pre-7 years invasion of Gog/Magog.

Doug
 
I might also add, Mr. Sufi, that not only is Islam going to be judged and destroyed, but so is the Vatican. In Revelation 17, it is the great harlot, that has been in bed figuratively with the kings of the earth.

When the Antichrist enters the fourth and final stage of his career as the Antichrist-beast, the ten Euro kings that will pledge their alliance to him and his claim to be God, will no longer have to cater to the Vatican for political reasons. Being an impediment to his agenda, centuries of resentment by the European politicians will spring forth to destroy the prostitute with fire.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (RCC in every country)

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. (The European politicians really don’t like it that they have to cater to the Vatican)

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (The Vatican and Rome - set ablaze)

Doug
 
I might also add, Mr. Sufi, that not only is Islam going to be judged and destroyed, but so is the Vatican. In Revelation 17, it is the great harlot, that has been in bed figuratively with the kings of the earth.

Doug
I’ll add, that I don’t think you really know. If the disciples of Jesus misunderstood the book of revelations what would make me think you understand it correctly. Many of the disciples of Jesus thought they would witness the end in their life time.
 
I’ll add, that I don’t think you really know. If the disciples of Jesus misunderstood the book of revelations what would make me think you understand it correctly. Many of the disciples of Jesus thought they would witness the end in their life time.
Hi again, Mr Sufi,

Mr. Sufi, simply by your calling it the book of revelations, indicates you are not in a position to evaluate my knowledge on the subject. So why go there? I am just giving you some information to consider.

It is “Revelation” singular, not revelations as a bunch of revealed information. God is going to glorify Jesus to the entire world when he returns to rule and reign from Jerusalem. It is the revealing of Jesus in that fashion - which is the “Revelation” the grand revealing that God has bestowed upon him.

Many of the end times prophecy passages have been sealed (from understanding) until the end times, which would not have been understood in the first century time of the disciples. In Daniel 12, for instance, that book is sealed until an era of increase in both knowledge and transportation.

Daniel 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

In our lifetime, jet planes crossing the oceans, internet, i-phones, etc. That kind of increase was not part of the first century landscape.

Paul in 2thessalonians2, explained that the Day of the Lord would not come about until there was a great falling away (from the Christian faith) and that the man of sin be revealed. Since neither of those things happened in the disciples lifetime, they were busy carrying out the great commission to spread the gospel. The disciples, some of who did consider their time to be the last days from the perspective of that the falling away and revealing of the man of sin - from their standpoint believed that it was possible that it could have happened. However, equipped with 20-20 hindsight, we know that it didn’t.

We have greater understanding of the end times prophecies in our times, since we have seen many of the events come to pass such as the return of the Jews to re-establish Israel as a nation again.

What do you think about this passage? Jerusalem, on the holy hill of Zion. Why not Mecca?

Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (as king)
 
How do “the European politicians… have to cater to the Vatican”?
Well, it started with the Holy Roman empire. Charlemange saved Pope Leo III’s bacon and in return, the Pope crowned Charlemagne Emperor of the Holy Roman empire.

The great inquisition beginning in 1600 by the Vatican could not have happened without the mutual benefit to the kings of those countries.

Later in the early 1800’s, Napoleon put an end to the Holy Roman empire, but defacto the European politicians have catered to the Vatican ever since for its blend of religious onto political influence.

In modern times, Hitler made use of the Pope, for example, to advance his agenda. (plagiarized from an internet site, I don’t know if this is true or not, but interesting - The only Nazi ever excommunicated by the church of Rome, even after all the war crime tribunals was Joseph Goebbels. His crime? He married a Protestant), :eek:

Keep in mind that the Vatican is not only headquarters for the RCC, but itself is a city-state. So its civil ambassadors influence directly each European nation in a political sense. Unlike other churches, it also has a seat at the U.N. And other countries, including the U.S., have political ambassadors to the Vatican. The kings of the earth in bed with the Vatican.

Accommodating the Vatican is a political necessity for the European leaders to reach a political goal. Tony Blair for example converted to Catholicism, which just so coincided with his appointment as the official Envoy of the Quartet on the Middle East 2007. The appointed was to attempt to bring together the religious elements at odds, which is the root of the conflicts in the middle east. In May 2008, Tony Blair then founded the The Faith and Globalisation Initiative.

It is not hard to find that the kings of the earth have been in bed with the Vatican over the course of history, especially in Europe.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Revelation in regards to the great prostitute in Revelation 17 (the Vatican) and the great trading city in Revelation 18 (Rome) that will also be destroyed takes into consideration a long time span of offenses over the long haul. Rome historically has persecuted many, many Christians and Jews. Although Rome does not rank as the top trading city of our time, which is probably NYC.

Doug
 
So is there is any article that deals with the Real Presence in Answering Islam? Can you point me to it?
Why do you think there should be one? The subject wouldn’t come up in discussions and polemics between Muslims and Protestants.
 
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