An Argument Against Islam - Advice Needed!

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ClemtheCatholic

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Hi peeps,

I am currently working on a blog article titled “5 Reasons Why I’m Not a Muslim”. One of the reasons is an argument I have been trying to understand more fully for some time, but which I could use some help on.

Put roughly, the argument I want to make is that Muslims believe (and/or the Quran says) that the Quran has always existed in heaven. However, the only way it could do that is to co-exist with Allah, which contradicts the principle of tawhid. Therefore, Islam is incoherent and false.

Can this be a sound argument? I’m wondering if it only applies to Sunni Islam, or if it would work with Shiites as well? Also, what of this idea that the Quran is an eternal attribute of speech of Allah? Is that a way by which Muslims escape the argument’s conclusion?

I am immensely grateful for any advice and information anyone might be able to offer.

Many thanks and God bless!

Clem
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
Hi peeps,

I am currently working on a blog article titled “5 Reasons Why I’m Not a Muslim”. One of the reasons is an argument I have been trying to understand more fully for some time, but which I could use some help on.

Put roughly, the argument I want to make is that Muslims believe (and/or the Quran says) that the Quran has always existed in heaven. However, the only way it could do that is to co-exist with Allah, which contradicts the principle of tawhid. Therefore, Islam is incoherent and false.

Can this be a sound argument? I’m wondering if it only applies to Sunni Islam, or if it would work with Shiites as well? Also, what of this idea that the Quran is an eternal attribute of speech of Allah? Is that a way by which Muslims escape the argument’s conclusion?

I am immensely grateful for any advice and information anyone might be able to offer.

Many thanks and God bless!

Clem
Click to expand...
The created/uncreated doctrine was a long debate between different sects of Islam , Mu’tazilites , now extinct , believed that the Quran is indeed “created” while other Sunni traditionalists holds that it is uncreated . This is perhaps the only theological debate between different sects of Muslims alongside Predestination I think . The doctrine of “created/uncreated” doesn’t hold any significant place in the Islamic theology and most Muslims doesn’t have any specefic believe about it .
However , Shiites , Zaydis and Kharijites believe that the Quran is however created .
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
Hi peeps,

Put roughly, the argument I want to make is that Muslims believe (and/or the Quran says) that the Quran has always existed in heaven. However, the only way it could do that is to co-exist with Allah, which contradicts the principle of tawhid. Therefore, Islam is incoherent and false.
Click to expand...
The doctrine of “created/uncreated” doesn’t hold any significant place in the Islamic theology and most Muslims doesn’t have any specefic believe about it .
However , Shiites , Zaydis and Kharijites believe that the Quran is however created .
Click to expand...
Clem, as Bashiru Ilah our Muslim guest has shown, i think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

I see this a lot of times whenever someone from our Church tries to interact with another faith.

Notice how you had a desire to make a theological claim.

Did you ever stop to consider that Theology may not have the pride of place in Islam, that it does have in our own religion?

We are an Orthodox faith - we care a lot about beliefs and ideas… we’ve even gone to war, excommunicated, etc. people based on those things.

Islam, like Judaism, invests more in Praxis or actions. This isn’t to say they lack a theology, but their primary concern tends to be legal interpretation.

Its why the fiqh or jurisprudene/legal schools of Islam tend to be more prominent in the history of that Faith rather than the Asharite/Mutazilite/Maturidi theological debates.
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
Hi peeps,

I am currently working on a blog article titled “5 Reasons Why I’m Not a Muslim”. One of the reasons is an argument I have been trying to understand more fully for some time, but which I could use some help on.

Put roughly, the argument I want to make is that Muslims believe (and/or the Quran says) that the Quran has always existed in heaven. However, the only way it could do that is to co-exist with Allah, which contradicts the principle of tawhid. Therefore, Islam is incoherent and false.

Can this be a sound argument? I’m wondering if it only applies to Sunni Islam, or if it would work with Shiites as well? Also, what of this idea that the Quran is an eternal attribute of speech of Allah? Is that a way by which Muslims escape the argument’s conclusion?

I am immensely grateful for any advice and information anyone might be able to offer.

Many thanks and God bless!

Clem
Click to expand...
The Church fathers basically disprove any Muslim claim that Christian doctrine corrupted over the centuries.
 
I don’t know why a Catholic is looking for five arguments against Islam. Isn’t one enough?
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Check this out:

youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y
Click to expand...
The topic was about whether the Qur’an was created or not; it is not an opportunity to present anti-Islam propaganda. (And the Persians and Byzantines were at a centuries long war with each other, as a response to 7:40 in the view).

Still, I wonder if Spinozism, the notion that everything is one substance, that is everything is a mode of God, is compatible with Islam (and the tahwid). The Qur’an could then exist eternally as the same substance of Allah, without the three persons of the trinity.
 
I think that you are going about this the wrong way. There is really only one valid argument: Mohammed was sent to the children of Ishmael, in much the same way as Moses was sent to the children of Israel.
But whereas Moses spoke to YHWH “face to face,” Mohammed had to make do with the “scrapes from the table.” That is why we see glaring errors in the Koran such as the idea that Isa was not Himself executed by crucifixion, a misconception that stemmed from the Prophet’s contact with a Christian heretic.

Islam is now recognized by many Christian churches as a religion. Mohammed should also be recognized as a Prophet. None of that recognition means that we need to convert to Islam. We are not children of Ishmael.
 
ClemtheCatholic said:
I am currently working on a blog article titled “5 Reasons Why I’m Not a Muslim”. One of the reasons is an argument I have been trying to understand more fully for some time, but which I could use some help on.

Put roughly, the argument I want to make is that Muslims believe (and/or the Quran says) that the Quran has always existed in heaven. However, the only way it could do that is to co-exist with Allah, which contradicts the principle of tawhid. Therefore, Islam is incoherent and false.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure why you feel the need to do this, but there are Christians who view the Bible as coming straight from God. It might be hard for make an honest critique on this topic.
 
The Koran says:
Pickthall: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
Click to expand...
Christians have never believed Mary was part of the Trinity. Yet allah, who muslims claim created and knows everything, apparently didn’t know this.
 
Bashiru_llah said:
The created/uncreated doctrine was a long debate between different sects of Islam , Mu’tazilites , now extinct , believed that the Quran is indeed “created” while other Sunni traditionalists holds that it is uncreated . This is perhaps the only theological debate between different sects of Muslims alongside Predestination I think . The doctrine of “created/uncreated” doesn’t hold any significant place in the Islamic theology and most Muslims doesn’t have any specefic believe about it .
However , Shiites , Zaydis and Kharijites believe that the Quran is however created .
Click to expand...
Thank you for this! So the most common Muslim view is that the Quran is un-created. I wonder then how they resolve this issue of it existing co-eternally with Allah? Am I correct in thinking some have proposed the idea that the Quran is in fact an attribute (i.e. speech) of Allah? Is this view tenable?
ChineseCatholic said:
Clem, as Bashiru Ilah our Muslim guest has shown, i think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

I see this a lot of times whenever someone from our Church tries to interact with another faith.

Notice how you had a desire to make a theological claim.

Did you ever stop to consider that Theology may not have the pride of place in Islam, that it does have in our own religion?

We are an Orthodox faith - we care a lot about beliefs and ideas… we’ve even gone to war, excommunicated, etc. people based on those things.

Islam, like Judaism, invests more in Praxis or actions. This isn’t to say they lack a theology, but their primary concern tends to be legal interpretation.

Its why the fiqh or jurisprudene/legal schools of Islam tend to be more prominent in the history of that Faith rather than the Asharite/Mutazilite/Maturidi theological debates.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I reject your criticism. Islam does indeed tend to emphasise practice more than doctrine, but that doesn’t mean it ignores doctrine. The notion that you can’t discuss Islamic theology is not only ludicrous but insulting to Muslims as well.
 
The position of the Ahlus Sunnah W’al Jama`at is that the Qur’an is the Speech of Allah, which is uncreated; but that the actions of humans are created. The easiest way to explain this would be this example:
  1. Allah is uncreated.
  2. You write Allah’s Name on a piece of paper.
  3. The paper or ink does not become uncreated.
Refer to this book for further reading.

May Allah guide you all to the truth and protect us all from misguidance.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
The Koran says:

Christians have never believed Mary was part of the Trinity. Yet allah, who muslims claim created and knows everything, apparently didn’t know this.
Click to expand...
You do not know what exactly Allah(God) says in Qur’an. Here Trinity and Allah(God) reject it. Also Torah and Gospel do not confirm Trinity!

80- Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims? Ali-İmran(3)
Angel is Gabriel(Holy Spirit, Ruh-ul Kuddus) who Christians claime to be God.

Prophet is Jesus.

A group in Christians had attributed Mary some divinity so Allah reject that.
 
hasantas said:
You do not know what exactly Allah(God) says in Qur’an. Here Trinity and Allah(God) reject it. Also Torah and Gospel do not confirm Trinity!

80- Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims? Ali-İmran(3)
Angel is Gabriel(Holy Spirit, Ruh-ul Kuddus) who Christians claime to be God.

Prophet is Jesus.

A group in Christians had attributed Mary some divinity so Allah reject that.
Click to expand...
Or maybe…the Koranic verse I quoted was “revealed” first and allah actually thought, at that time, that Mary was part of the Christian Trinity.

And Christians never attributed divinity to Mary. That’s a baseless claim, hasantas. Who were these people you refer to? Any actual record of their existence?
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Or maybe…the Koranic verse I quoted was “revealed” first and allah actually thought, at that time, that Mary was part of the Christian Trinity.

And Christians never attributed divinity to Mary. That’s a baseless claim, hasantas. Who were these people you refer to? Any actual record of their existence?
Click to expand...
Catholics need to stop oversimplifying history. It’s not like before the East-West Schism all Christians were Catholics as we know them today. Qur’anic commentators have mentioned that these verses were revealed after a deputation of Christians from Najran visited the Prophet (S).

Also:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/bride2.html
 
I would advise to take advice from Pope Francis and the Catholic Church which preaches the message of our Lord Jesus…a message of peace, honor and tolerance. Msgr. Stuart Swetland shows how the Church views Islam as a religion of peace according to Church teachings iows the teachings of the Pope and therefore Jesus.

youtube.com/watch?v=TvTneiqT3kA&t=2140s
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Or maybe…the Koranic verse I quoted was “revealed” first and allah actually thought, at that time, that Mary was part of the Christian Trinity.

And Christians never attributed divinity to Mary. That’s a baseless claim, hasantas. Who were these people you refer to? Any actual record of their existence?
Click to expand...
Look at that:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

Christians call Mary as “Coredemptrice” , “Mére de Dieu”. Christians claim that prayers will be accepted in the name of Mary and assomption issue etc.

And also Qur’an reject all kinds of Shirk. Christians gave authority to their Fathers to establish canons in religion. But only God establish/reveal canon in religion. If someone else make it instead of God so it is shirk.

31- They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. At-Tawbah(9)
 
hasantas said:
Look at that:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

Christians call Mary as “Coredemptrice”
Click to expand...
Surely you are kidding.

The tiny, tiny fraction of Catholics that would label her “co-redemptrix” are no more representative of wider Catholicism than Druze “muslims” are representative of wider Islam.
Christians gave authority to their Fathers to establish canons in religion. But only God establish/reveal canon in religion. If someone else make it instead of God so it is shirk.
Click to expand...
Correction: Christ gave his apostles the authority to establish doctrine. The “binding and loosing” as by the “keys” given directly by Christ, the son of God.

Explicitly.

Your education on the very basics of Christianity may require further development, I’m afraid.
 
Vonsalza said:
Surely you are kidding.

The tiny, tiny fraction of Catholics that would label her “co-redemptrix” are no more representative of wider Catholicism than Druze “muslims” are representative of wider Islam.

Correction: Christ gave his apostles the authority to establish doctrine. The “binding and loosing” as by the “keys” given directly by Christ, the son of God.

Explicitly.

Your education on the very basics of Christianity may require further development, I’m afraid.
Click to expand...
Jesus was a human. Can a human take position of God?
 
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