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Lenten_ashes
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From the article you cited:
There is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in Muhammad’s time (the 6th and 7th centuries AD)
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There is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in Muhammad’s time (the 6th and 7th centuries AD)
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Jesus is a divine personJesus was a human. Can a human take position of God?
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
There were “Christian” gnostics and Arian heretics, etc.Catholics need to stop oversimplifying history. It’s not like before the East-West Schism all Christians were Catholics as we know them today. Qur’anic commentators have mentioned that these verses were revealed after a deputation of Christians from Najran visited the Prophet (S).
Also:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism
home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/bride2.html
But looking at the big picture, they were sort of obscure overall and should never be confused , by anyone, much less the creator of the universe, as mainstream Christianity.
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SalamKhan
Guest
Apparently, the Christians of the second link (such as Augustine of Hippo and John of Damascus) were heretics and not mainstream. You said it, not me…There were “Christian” gnostics and Arian heretics, etc.
But looking at the big picture, they were sort of obscure overall and should never be confused , by anyone, much less the creator of the universe, as mainstream Christianity.
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Erikaspirit16
Guest
Actually, there is a sect that did: Collyridianism in (I think) the 6th c. It died out before Muhammad was born, but it’s possible he was familiar with it.Or maybe…the Koranic verse I quoted was “revealed” first and allah actually thought, at that time, that Mary was part of the Christian Trinity.
And Christians never attributed divinity to Mary. That’s a baseless claim, hasantas. Who were these people you refer to? Any actual record of their existence?
There is also an inscription in Yemen from the 6th c. (before Muhammad was born) that basically says “In the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit…” The point being that orthodox understandings of the Trinity were also present in Arabia around the time of Muhammad.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Care to expound on this, friend?Apparently, the Christians of the second link (such as Augustine of Hippo and John of Damascus) were heretics and not mainstream. You said it, not me…
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SyroMalankara
Guest
That’s a pretty racist interpretation. Who are the “children of Ishmael”? Arabs - many of the forefathers of whom were forceably converted under threat of death from Eastern Christianity and Sephardic/Mizrahi Judaism - why should they have this prophet assigned to them?I think that you are going about this the wrong way. There is really only one valid argument: Mohammed was sent to the children of Ishmael, in much the same way as Moses was sent to the children of Israel.
But whereas Moses spoke to YHWH “face to face,” Mohammed had to make do with the “scrapes from the table.” That is why we see glaring errors in the Koran such as the idea that Isa was not Himself executed by crucifixion, a misconception that stemmed from the Prophet’s contact with a Christian heretic.
Islam is now recognized by many Christian churches as a religion. Mohammed should also be recognized as a Prophet. None of that recognition means that we need to convert to Islam. We are not children of Ishmael.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
I went to Turkey where it is claimed Mohammad’s beard is still emitting a fragrant smell out of a glass enclosure - you tell me.Jesus was a human. Can a human take position of God?
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Vonsalza
Guest
Can a human become God?Jesus was a human. Can a human take position of God?
Absolutely not.
Can God incarnate as a human?
Unless God is somehow limited, then of course he could.
Not only could God incarnate as a human being, he chose to in order to perform the work of human redemption.
In the perfect sacrifice of Christ, we can be reconciled to God.
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CandleFlame
Guest
At one point, I mentioned the differences of understanding and asked in a different thread a while back if this notion of equating Gabriel with Holy Spirit is held by all Muslims. I don’t remember if I ever got a response.You do not know what exactly Allah(God) says in Qur’an. Here Trinity and Allah(God) reject it. Also Torah and Gospel do not confirm Trinity!
80- Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims? Ali-İmran(3)
Angel is Gabriel(Holy Spirit, Ruh-ul Kuddus) who Christians claime to be God.
Prophet is Jesus.
A group in Christians had attributed Mary some divinity so Allah reject that.
In Catholicism, Holy Spirit is the third person of God. Gabriel is an Angel, big difference. An Angel is a spirit, an Angel is holy, but that does not mean an Angel is the Holy Spirit. Besides, the Angel Gabriel is not the only Angel in existence. Are you saying the other Angels are also Holy Spirit? Consider this sentence: Sherry is a girl, she is my friend, but that doesn’t mean she is my girlfriend (in the sense of being my lover). Similar logic.
I usually put capitals when referring to the one God, and not when referring to other gods (like Zeus is a god). Similarly, I also put capitals when referring to the Holy Spirit as the third person of God, and not when referring to regular holy spirits. Or in my example, the difference is in words instead of capitals: a girl friend (two words) and my girlfriend (one word). I’m not certain if all english-speaking persons do like I do, but this was how I was taught. Someone told me that in Arabic there is a difference as well: God (Allah) and god (ilah?). I apologize I have not done my research in this last one, but I just want to make a point that one’s language also plays a role in understanding concepts.
Anyway, with this logic in mind, Christians do not take Gabriel or any other Angels as the Holy Spirit the third person of God. Thus, Christians do not take Gabriel or any other Angels or holy spirits as God. If you keep claiming that we do, then I am sorry that I have failed in my explanation. Perhaps you should seek out someone else to understand the concepts in another way.
As it also has been done in a different thread, if Gabriel/Angel is really Holy Spirit as you claim, then any sentences with Gabriel/Angel should be exchangeable with Holy Spirit and vice versa. This is not the case.
As for Jesus as Prophet… Again, we seem to have a different definition of Prophet. I don’t believe we call Adam and David as Prophets like Muslims seem to do.
Lenten_ashes already answered about Mary.
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hasantas
Guest
What do you expect from me to say?I went to Turkey where it is claimed Mohammad’s beard is still emitting a fragrant smell out of a glass enclosure - you tell me.
Those issues are polemical. Muslims love Muhammad so much sometimes they may exceed the limits. But some people really feel such thing which is relative.
Christians exceed the limits so much which they make a human to be God! Which is more ironic?
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hasantas
Guest
There is no need for a sacrifice. Faith and good deeds are enough for salvation. We should pay for our salvation. Why should God do that instead of us? For sins repentance is enough. All prophets include Jesus preached that.Can a human become God?
Absolutely not.
Can God incarnate as a human?
Unless God is somehow limited, then of course he could.
Not only could God incarnate as a human being, he chose to in order to perform the work of human redemption.
In the perfect sacrifice of Christ, we can be reconciled to God.
God can do everything… That is true. Hımm… Can God be unjustice? Can God destroy Himself forever? Can God make Himself a car? Can God create a stone which is bigger than Himself? …
You see to say God can do everything is not enough to explain God wish to be a man. These are nonsense. Because God is Vajib(causeless, eternal, out of time and place, …) which is nonsense to compare with materials.
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hasantas
Guest
There are countless(so much) angels. Holy Spirit is specific name of angel Gabriel. Every term of “Holy Spirit” might not point angel Gabriel but I am not sure.At one point, I mentioned the differences of understanding and asked in a different thread a while back if this notion of equating Gabriel with Holy Spirit is held by all Muslims. I don’t remember if I ever got a response.
In Catholicism, Holy Spirit is the third person of God. Gabriel is an Angel, big difference. An Angel is a spirit, an Angel is holy, but that does not mean an Angel is the Holy Spirit. Besides, the Angel Gabriel is not the only Angel in existence. Are you saying the other Angels are also Holy Spirit? Consider this sentence: Sherry is a girl, she is my friend, but that doesn’t mean she is my girlfriend (in the sense of being my lover). Similar logic.
I usually put capitals when referring to the one God, and not when referring to other gods (like Zeus is a god). Similarly, I also put capitals when referring to the Holy Spirit as the third person of God, and not when referring to regular holy spirits. Or in my example, the difference is in words instead of capitals: a girl friend (two words) and my girlfriend (one word). I’m not certain if all english-speaking persons do like I do, but this was how I was taught. Someone told me that in Arabic there is a difference as well: God (Allah) and god (ilah?). I apologize I have not done my research in this last one, but I just want to make a point that one’s language also plays a role in understanding concepts.
Anyway, with this logic in mind, Christians do not take Gabriel or any other Angels as the Holy Spirit the third person of God. Thus, Christians do not take Gabriel or any other Angels or holy spirits as God. If you keep claiming that we do, then I am sorry that I have failed in my explanation. Perhaps you should seek out someone else to understand the concepts in another way.
As it also has been done in a different thread, if Gabriel/Angel is really Holy Spirit as you claim, then any sentences with Gabriel/Angel should be exchangeable with Holy Spirit and vice versa. This is not the case.
As for Jesus as Prophet… Again, we seem to have a different definition of Prophet. I don’t believe we call Adam and David as Prophets like Muslims seem to do.
Lenten_ashes already answered about Mary.
Holy Spirit had taken form of a “dove”! As we know angels can take different forms. Holy Spirit came into time and space! But God is always out of time and space.
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Vonsalza
Guest
Not correct. Where a debt in incurred, it must be repaid. Where there is loss, there must be restoration - as it was from the days of Abraham.There is no need for a sacrifice. Faith and good deeds are enough for salvation.
Jesus also preached that he was God. Jesus preached that He existed before Abraham.We should pay for our salvation. Why should God do that instead of us? For sins repentance is enough. All prophets include Jesus preached that.
God is unlimited. There is nothing greater than that/He.God can do everything… That is true. Hımm… Can God be unjustice? Can God destroy Himself forever? Can God make Himself a car? Can God create a stone which is bigger than Himself? …
God the Father is “Vajib”. Upon His advent, God the Son (Jesus) was not. It is through the Son that we may enter into God’s kingdom.You see to say God can do everything is not enough to explain God wish to be a man. These are nonsense. Because God is Vajib(causeless, eternal, out of time and place, …) which is nonsense to compare with materials.
To say that your God could not do these things leads me to think your God is weaker than mine.
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CandleFlame
Guest
Thank you for your response. I have a follow-up question, could you give evidences to support your claim that I bolded above? I would like to understand how you came to that conclusion, and whether it is shared by all Muslims or just you.There are countless(so much) angels. Holy Spirit is specific name of angel Gabriel. Every term of “Holy Spirit” might not point angel Gabriel but I am not sure.
Holy Spirit had taken form of a “dove”! As we know angels can take different forms. Holy Spirit came into time and space! But God is always out of time and space.
Also, if you have understood my explanation of the difference in a holy spirit and the Holy Spirit, a god and the God, I hope you would also understand that Christians do not take Gabriel as the Holy Spirit.
I think that your claim that “Christians claim Gabriel to be God” is unfair, because it is your assumption from lack of understanding of Christianity, just as it would be unfair if I had claimed “Islam prohibits women from driving.”
I don’t claim to know everything about Christianity, let alone other religions, but I am constantly learning. In doing so, I admit I am not immune to doing my own assumptions. However, I try my best to understand the arguments from all sides. And I have to rely on others to call me out when my assumptions or claims are incorrect. So I hope you’d understand.
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hasantas
Guest
I know Christians do not say Gabriel is Holy Spirit. Christians think that Holy Spirit is one person/personality of one God. But Qur’an explain that Holy Spirit is angel Gabriel and Jesus was supported with Holy Spirit so much that Jesus could perform great miracles. Jesus was so wonderful which perhaps made people think that Jesus did all those by Himself. But Jesus always declared that all these were given by Father.Thank you for your response. I have a follow-up question, could you give evidences to support your claim that I bolded above? I would like to understand how you came to that conclusion, and whether it is shared by all Muslims or just you.
Also, if you have understood my explanation of the difference in a holy spirit and the Holy Spirit, a god and the God, I hope you would also understand that Christians do not take Gabriel as the Holy Spirit.
I think that your claim that “Christians claim Gabriel to be God” is unfair, because it is your assumption from lack of understanding of Christianity, just as it would be unfair if I had claimed “Islam prohibits women from driving.”
I don’t claim to know everything about Christianity, let alone other religions, but I am constantly learning. In doing so, I admit I am not immune to doing my own assumptions. However, I try my best to understand the arguments from all sides. And I have to rely on others to call me out when my assumptions or claims are incorrect. So I hope you’d understand.
Muslims do not reject Christians in their faith. But Christians exceed in attributes of Jesus and God which could be “Shirk” like Pagans. Jesus never said Himself or Holy Spirit were God!
A question: Is there no any statements about Holy Spirit in OT? If there are but that means God were always on the world! Is that acceptable?
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CandleFlame
Guest
If you knew Christians do not say Gabriel is Holy Spirit, why the claim in the first place? When you say Qur’an explains that Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel, could you please point me to where it was explained?I know Christians do not say Gabriel is Holy Spirit. Christians think that Holy Spirit is one person/personality of one God. But Qur’an explain that Holy Spirit is angel Gabriel and Jesus was supported with Holy Spirit so much that Jesus could perform great miracles. Jesus was so wonderful which perhaps made people think that Jesus did all those by Himself. But Jesus always declared that all these were given by Father.
Muslims do not reject Christians in their faith. But Christians exceed in attributes of Jesus and God which could be “Shirk” like Pagans. Jesus never said Himself or Holy Spirit were God!
A question: Is there no any statements about Holy Spirit in OT? If there are but that means God were always on the world! Is that acceptable?
As for your question, as I understand it, the concept of Holy Spirit had been there from the beginning (OT), just lacked the term “Holy Spirit” as we understand it now. The same thing with the concept of Trinity had been understood by early Christians (NT), just lacked the term “Trinity”. I’m going to refer to the following for some samples of Holy Spirit in OT and NT: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9747063&postcount=10
What’s wrong with God being with us in the world from the beginning? I expect my king, president, prime minister, general, employer, etc to come down to the people/subjects/employees to understand the situations/conditions on the ground in order to better teach and lead the people to a better future, not just giving commands from the throne. If I expect that from human leaders, why can’t I expect God (the King of Kings, no less) to do the same: be with us and teach us, not just exists outside time and space? Or did you just mean God is not bound by time and space by saying “outside time and space”?
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SalamKhan
Guest
Go to the second link, for Patristic evidence of Maryam as the ‘Bride of God’. I assume you will respond that she is not ‘Bride of God’ in the real sense, but I tell you it is absurd nonetheless. The Christians say that Isa ibn Maryam (A) is the ‘Son of God’ in the real sense and not merely figurative, but yet they draw the line with ‘Bride of God’ taken in the real sense, when both are blasphemously absurd?Care to expound on this, friend?
Perhaps this is why you claim that God has a son, because you believe to claim impossiblity of Him having a son would make Him unable to do what man is able to do i.e. reproduce. If that is the case, would you also assert that God has a mate? Because by this same reasoning to claim impossibility of Him having a mate would make Him unable to do what man is able to do i.e. reproduce offspring through copulation.Can God incarnate as a human?
Unless God is somehow limited, then of course he could.
You should understand, that the Power of Allah is not related to impossibilities, because impossibilities absolutely cannot happen; were there any possibility, then they would not be impossible to begin with.
This is why, questions such as “Could God create a rock that is too heavy for Him?” are invalid.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
It would not be out of place to give St. Mary the title “Spouse of the Holy Spirit” - which the Church has.Go to the second link, for Patristic evidence of Maryam as the ‘Bride of God’. I assume you will respond that she is not ‘Bride of God’ in the real sense, but I tell you it is absurd nonetheless. The Christians say that Isa ibn Maryam (A) is the ‘Son of God’ in the real sense and not merely figurative, but yet they draw the line with ‘Bride of God’ taken in the real sense, when both are blasphemously absurd?
Copulation is not implied. A miraculous virgin birth. Not God copulating as you implied.Perhaps this is why you claim that God has a son, because you believe to claim impossiblity of Him having a son would make Him unable to do what man is able to do i.e. reproduce. If that is the case, would you also assert that God has a mate? Because by this same reasoning to claim impossibility of Him having a mate would make Him unable to do what man is able to do i.e. reproduce offspring through copulation.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
But you claim God corrected previous errors with Islam. How so, when Islamic errors continue?What do you expect from me to say?
Those issues are polemical. Muslims love Muhammad so much sometimes they may exceed the limits. But some people really feel such thing which is relative.
Since Christians do not see the limit, nor do they “make” a human God, the question is absurd.Christians exceed the limits so much which they make a human to be God! Which is more ironic?
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