And thus, the Qur’an did not err in rebuking the Christians for their deifying of Maryam.It would not be out of place to give St. Mary the title “Spouse of the Holy Spirit” - which the Church has.
Miracles from holy relics, are not an error, miracles are a demonstration of the Power of Allah, and that He would Will miracles through this holy relic, is to demonstrate the honour and rank of His beloved Prophet and Messenger, Muhammad (S).But you claim God corrected previous errors with Islam. How so, when Islamic errors continue?
Which errors?But you claim God corrected previous errors with Islam. How so, when Islamic errors continue?
Since Christians do not see the limit, nor do they “make” a human God, the question is absurd.
Are there not competing sects within Islam with disagreements over leadership and intepretation? Do you consider the Druze to be validly Muslim?Which errors?
Jesus is human. But he is not a “human-made-God” as you purport.Was not Jesus a human?
87- To Musa (Moses) We gave the Book (Torah) and sent after him other Rasools in succession; then We gave Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear Signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (Gabriel). Why is it that whenever there came to you a Rasool with a message which did not suit your desires, you became so arrogant that some you called impostors and others you killed! Al-Baqarah(2)If you knew Christians do not say Gabriel is Holy Spirit, why the claim in the first place? When you say Qur’an explains that Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel, could you please point me to where it was explained?
As for your question, as I understand it, the concept of Holy Spirit had been there from the beginning (OT), just lacked the term “Holy Spirit” as we understand it now. The same thing with the concept of Trinity had been understood by early Christians (NT), just lacked the term “Trinity”. I’m going to refer to the following for some samples of Holy Spirit in OT and NT: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9747063&postcount=10
What’s wrong with God being with us in the world from the beginning? I expect my king, president, prime minister, general, employer, etc to come down to the people/subjects/employees to understand the situations/conditions on the ground in order to better teach and lead the people to a better future, not just giving commands from the throne. If I expect that from human leaders, why can’t I expect God (the King of Kings, no less) to do the same: be with us and teach us, not just exists outside time and space? Or did you just mean God is not bound by time and space by saying “outside time and space”?
There are different or some wrong interpretations of Muslims. But these are not wrongs of Islam.Are there not competing sects within Islam with disagreements over leadership and intepretation? Do you consider the Druze to be validly Muslim?
Jesus is human. But he is not a “human-made-God” as you purport.
He is “God-made-human”, born of a virgin.
What a Muslim interprets IS Islam to him. You are no different.There are different or some wrong interpretations of Muslims. But these are not wrongs of Islam.
Probably as many as he wanted, but he only chose one. We know this because Isa himself claimed that he was with God before this world was even formed (John 17:5). And we know Jesus was critical to the salvation of humanity because he himself said “No one comes to the Father (Allah) except through me”.How many "God-made-human"s can God make?
God knows no such limitation.Attributions of God are eternal which do not transform into materials.
The words of the “prophet” Isa: “The Father and I are one.”Do God-made-human have a soul? If not so God must settle in Himself which seems very invalid. If yes so a body and a soul is equal to a human. What make it God? Or do God interact with soul of Jesus? If yes then do that make Jesus to be God? No. God can interact(effect) any soul.
Why do you need to put Gabriel in parentheses everywhere? Do they say Gabriel in parentheses as well in the original text? The fact that you put Gabriel in parentheses after Holy Spirit indicates that it is your interpretation that make Holy Spirit to mean Gabriel. When you say the attributions could belong to an Angel, it doesn’t mean that it is referring to an Angel without further elaboration. If I say something can breathe, eat, drink, sleep, communicate has a name, has eyes, has ears, has a nose, has legs, these attributes could belong to a human, it still doesn’t mean that I am referring to a human. I could be talking about an animal.87- To Musa (Moses) We gave the Book (Torah) and sent after him other Rasools in succession; then We gave Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear Signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (Gabriel). Why is it that whenever there came to you a Rasool with a message which did not suit your desires, you became so arrogant that some you called impostors and others you killed! Al-Baqarah(2)
253- Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan. Al-Baqarah(2)
110- Then Allah will ask: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary)! Recall my favor upon you and to your mother, how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit, so you could speak to the people in cradle and in old age, how I taught you the Book, Wisdom, the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). How you were able to make the figure of a bird out of a clay, by My permission, how you breathed into it and changed it into a real bird, by My permission. How you could heal the born-blind and the lepers by My permission. How you could bring the dead body back to life by My permission. How I protected you from the violence of the Children of Israel when you came to them with clear signs and the unbelievers among them said: “This is nothing but a clear sorcery.” Al-Maidah(5)
102- Say, “The Holy Spirit (Gabriel) has brought it down piecemeal intact from your Rabb to strengthen the faith of the believers, and to give guidance and good news to the Muslims.” An-Nahl(16)
There are also hadiths and interpretations of scholars about Ruh-ul Kudus(Holy Spirit).
If you look at verse which refer to Holy Spirit so you will see that attributions of Holy Spirit could belong to an angel. There is no need to make a human and an angel to be God!
God can see, hear, feel etc very well and lackless without being incarnated? Can God not do that? If God cannot see and feel what I do so God cannot be my God. Yet God create my feels and acts after my choises.
Prophets were sent in name of God and if prophets were angels so they would not be perfect role model for human because people would say that we cannot perform what angels do. God had never sent an angel to preach. Yet God did not sent angels why need to come Himself? Is there any importance either Jesus was God or not? No. Because Jesus lived just as a human and He was a perfect model. If I like Jesus so God will love me. I love Jesus for sake of God.
Insist on claim Jesus to be God make Christianity less reliable.
Forgive me for I am not a native English speaker, that I can’t really understand what you are trying to convey here. I’d appreciate it if you or someone else could elaborate.Jesus could not be so successful perfectly if we think He was God. Many people did not believe in Him and many people did evil things about Him. Why a god be so desperate? God suffered all these for salvation of humanbeing? It seems god! could not do that absolutely many people went/go on wrong ways. And also it seems sacrifice of God as Himself is not enough! Could not God do that without suffering of Himself? God can do.
Think a god who to forgive human is bound on harming Himself! Indeed God do not get harm in any case.
To me, being out of time and space and being unbound by time and space are two different things. The first one indicates that He would never be in time and space and can’t enter to the confines of time and space.God is out of time and space because God is not bound on time and space. God create time and space and God is not one part of His creatures. Materials are exposed to corruption in time and space. God never corrupt. God knows every thing timeless. Jesus grow gradually. Jesus need food and water and air etc. Does God need anything?
If you say Jesus’s body and essence were different? I ask How? Did Jesus have a humanian soul? If it was in that way so what make Jesus to be God? Or do you say God interacted with soul of Jesus? I ask in which way? And also God may interact with souls by very different ways so are all people God? Can any one explain that?
I do not put Gabriel in paratheses I just quote from interpretations. here from Christians, Muslims and wikipedia. Also you can investigate so easily.Why do you need to put Gabriel in parentheses everywhere? Do they say Gabriel in parentheses as well in the original text? The fact that you put Gabriel in parentheses after Holy Spirit indicates that it is your interpretation that make Holy Spirit to mean Gabriel. When you say the attributions could belong to an Angel, it doesn’t mean that it is referring to an Angel without further elaboration. If I say something can breathe, eat, drink, sleep, communicate has a name, has eyes, has ears, has a nose, has legs, these attributes could belong to a human, it still doesn’t mean that I am referring to a human. I could be talking about an animal.
Forgive me for saying this, but insisting on claim Gabriel is Holy Spirit or vice versa without evidences also makes you less reliable as well. Are there more direct quotes that you can provide that show Gabriel is Holy Spirit and vice versa?
If, as you said, Angels would not be the perfect role models for humans, then: since God is perfect and God created humans in His image, He would be the perfect role model for humans, in the form of Christ.
Shortly: Father and Son are one because Father taught Son. Jesus did not talk about divinity of Himself. People did not believe in Him so Jesus tried to persuade them that He was sent by Father. You should look at the whole case. And also Jesus replied misunderstanding and accusing of people in verse 34.What a Muslim interprets IS Islam to him. You are no different.
Probably as many as he wanted, but he only chose one. We know this because Isa himself claimed that he was with God before this world was even formed (John 17:5). And we know Jesus was critical to the salvation of humanity because he himself said “No one comes to the Father (Allah) except through me”.
God knows no such limitation.
The words of the “prophet” Isa: “The Father and I are one.”
As such, he is more than a prophet. He was with God before the world began. He is one with the Father. No one comes to the Father except by him.
All these are the words of Jesus of Nazareth; a man you claim as prophet.
Angel is an just another word for “messenger”, in fact, in Syriac the word “molokho/malakha” means just that – messenger/emmissary of a the Malak (King). I could – using your wordplay – lead to the conclusion that your “messenger” Mohammad is in fact, an emmissary of another ruler, one who contradicts the messengers sent to Christians.I do not put Gabriel in paratheses I just quote from interpretations. here from Christians, Muslims and wikipedia. Also you can investigate so easily.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_in_Islam
islamawareness.net/Angels/fatwa_holyspirit.html
safne.com/azali11.htm
non of divine attributions refer to Holy Spirit. But most of attributions refer to an angel. So it is more likely to be an angel. Yet there is no any statement about Godhead of Holy Spirit.
Yes we do. Because God allowed Himself to be harmed by His own Creation - out of death/harm comes new life. This is a hard saying, who can accept it??An angel cannot be a perfect model because it is not genus and family of human. God is not kind of human so God Himself is not suitable model in form of a human. Think God Himself is a human and you can harm him. Do you worship that god anymore?
Father and Son are two distinct PERSONS.If Father and Son are one literally why Jesus said “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” That means Jesus and Son are not one but different persons.
Then Jesus’ saying makes no sense. But by ME. All the prophets spoke of ME. Before Abraham I WAS.And also no one comes to Father except me means that there is no way except prophets. There were countless people before Jesus who went to God through other prophets.
The Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.The “word” was with God. That can be interpreted in very different ways and the one that Jesus is God is so far.
And thus, you’ve proven both the Quran and yourself are prone to misinterpretation.And thus, the Qur’an did not err in rebuking the Christians for their deifying of Maryam.
According to you friend Hasantas - such is folk belief and not real Islam. So which is it?Miracles from holy relics, are not an error, miracles are a demonstration of the Power of Allah, and that He would Will miracles through this holy relic, is to demonstrate the honour and rank of His beloved Prophet and Messenger, Muhammad (S).
So two distinct gods? Is that not polytheism?Father and Son are two distinct PERSONS.
Are you purposely misstating the Catholic theology to further your agenda? THREE PERSONS, ONE GOD.So two distinct gods? Is that not polytheism?
You have not proven that is misinterpretation, merely an assertion. I have already addressed the possible response of “the title of ‘Bride of God’ cannot be taken in the real sense, as such a thing would be impermissable”, by highlighting the blasphemously, absurd, double standard of considering a ‘Son of God’ to be taken in the real sense. If you choose to ignore it, I will not argue nor force you to argue further on this point.And thus, you’ve proven both the Quran and yourself are prone to misinterpretation.
According to you friend Hasantas - such is folk belief and not real Islam. So which is it?
They can accuse you of misstating their doctrine all they want. I am positive they will not attempt to actually explain what is meant by ‘person’. So how could they accuse others of misstating, misunderstanding, misinterpreting, etc. anything, when they themselves will be the first to heavily emphasise how much they don’t understand their own doctrine?So two distinct gods? Is that not polytheism?
Where is the part we say we don’t understand our own doctrines?They can accuse you of misstating their doctrine all they want. I am positive they will not attempt to actually explain what is meant by ‘person’. So how could they accuse others of misstating, misunderstanding, misinterpreting, etc. anything, when they themselves will be the first to heavily emphasise how much they don’t understand their own doctrine?
He never said two distinct Gods. That’s your strawman.So two distinct gods? Is that not polytheism?