An Argument Against Islam - Advice Needed!

[steve_b]

Hi peeps,

I am currently working on a blog article titled “5 Reasons Why I’m Not a Muslim”. One of the reasons is an argument I have been trying to understand more fully for some time, but which I could use some help on.

Put roughly, the argument I want to make is that Muslims believe (and/or the Quran says) that the Quran has always existed in heaven. However, the only way it could do that is to co-exist with Allah, which contradicts the principle of tawhid. Therefore, Islam is incoherent and false.

Can this be a sound argument? I’m wondering if it only applies to Sunni Islam, or if it would work with Shiites as well? Also, what of this idea that the Quran is an eternal attribute of speech of Allah? Is that a way by which Muslims escape the argument’s conclusion?

I am immensely grateful for any advice and information anyone might be able to offer.

Many thanks and God bless!

Clem

Like any claim, claims requires proof. There claim has no such proof. ergo Their claim falls flat.

 

[SalamKhan]

Where is the part we say we don’t understand our own doctrines?

MJ

Often, most questions about the Trinity are met with the response “The Trinity is a mystery”.

I haven’t seen anyone attempt to answer questions about the Trinity, at least not on this forum.

 

[MartinJordan]

Often, most questions about the Trinity are met with the response “The Trinity is a mystery”.

I haven’t seen anyone attempt to answer questions about the Trinity, at least not on this forum.

When we Love God, we are always talking the Trinity and Mystery and Persons etc. God’s Love is what it is in essence. I’m sure you can find the necessary threads. Look for them you can start from google with the added term " Catholic answers".

Btw, it has never been the Christian terms as an affront to Islam. Really pointless if it being used as an argument against Islam and Im certainly not interested in debating. Better time is spent by “praying at all times”.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[SalamKhan]

God knows no such limitation.

I have answered this reasoning before:

Perhaps this is why you claim that God has a son, because you believe to claim impossiblity of Him having a son would make Him unable to do what man is able to do i.e. reproduce. If that is the case, would you also assert that God has a mate? Because by this same reasoning to claim impossibility of Him having a mate would make Him unable to do what man is able to do i.e. reproduce offspring through copulation.

You should understand, that the Power of Allah is not related to impossibilities, because impossibilities absolutely cannot happen; were there any possibility, then they would not be impossible to begin with.

This is why, questions such as “Could God create a rock that is too heavy for Him?” are invalid.

The existence of such a god, in your reasoning, cannot be proven. Yet ironically the church has anathematised those who assert the existence of God cannot be proven by reason alone.

You may be ignore me again if you wish, but I ask you to read this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14735548&postcount=34

 

[steve_b]

The existence of such a god, in your reasoning, cannot be proven. Yet ironically the church has anathematised those who assert the existence of God cannot be proven by reason alone.

You may be ignore me again if you wish, but I ask you to read this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14735548&postcount=34

Question, (links are operational)

Re: #34 , and Islam’s denial of the Trinity

How would Islam answer the following

who is "us" , when it says “let us”, and "our" , when it says “our image” and “our likeness” in this passage from Genesis 1:26,

 

[SalamKhan]

Question, (links are operational)

Re: #34 , and Islam’s denial of the Trinity

How would Islam answer the following

who is "us" , as in “let us”, and "our" , as in “our image” and “our likeness” in this passage from Genesis 1:26,

In some verses of the Qur’an, Allah refers to Himself as ‘We’. In the Arabic language, this is a majestic plural. The Jews also say that the usage of ‘our’ and ‘us’ in Genesis is a majestic plural in the Hebrew language.

I should also note, that “our likeness” and “our image” cannot be taken literally, as even the first millennium Church rejected anthropomorphism as a heresy.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

The Quran is the speech of Allah.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

Catholics need to stop oversimplifying history. It’s not like before the East-West Schism all Christians were Catholics as we know them today. Qur’anic commentators have mentioned that these verses were revealed after a deputation of Christians from Najran visited the Prophet (S).

Also:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/bride2.html

I could not have said this any better. The Quran does not have a misconception about the Trinity. There were many Christians with many and many different set of beliefs at the time of the Beloved Prophet (s).

 

[steve_b]

In some verses of the Qur’an, Allah refers to Himself as ‘We’. In the Arabic language, this is a majestic plural. The Jews also say that the usage of ‘our’ and ‘us’ in Genesis is a majestic plural in the Hebrew language.

I should also note, that “our likeness” and “our image” cannot be taken literally, as even the first millennium Church rejected anthropomorphism as a heresy.

The Quran is the speech of Allah.

I could not have said this any better. The Quran does not have a misconception about the Trinity. There were many Christians with many and many different set of beliefs at the time of the Beloved Prophet (s).

No body answered the question.

In Genesis 1:26, God was creating. Who is “us” and who is “our” referring to?

 

[SalamKhan]

No body answered the question.

In Genesis 1:26, God was creating. Who is “us” and who is “our” referring to?

I answered, you even quoted my answer.

 

[steve_b]

I answered, you even quoted my answer.

Nope.

Majestic plural is when there is more than one and one is speaking for all. If there is only one, then there is no “us” and no “our”

So who is “us” and “our” referring to?

 

[SyroMalankara]

You have not proven that is misinterpretation, merely an assertion. I have already addressed the possible response of “the title of ‘Bride of God’ cannot be taken in the real sense, as such a thing would be impermissable”, by highlighting the blasphemously, absurd, double standard of considering a ‘Son of God’ to be taken in the real sense. If you choose to ignore it, I will not argue nor force you to argue further on this point.

Who is ignoring? All professed nuns and consecrated virgins are “Brides of God” in a spiritual manner. St. Mary is the ‘Spouse of the Holy Spirit’ in the matter of the supernatural/spiritual. You are basing “impermissibility” on the natural order. As to "Son of God’, there are “sons,” but only one SON.

Hasantas is my brother in faith, but I do not know him personally whatsoever. I can only assume he is under the influence of a modern ‘Reformist’ movement, as many Muslims especially in the West would be. After all, this movement has support from the ultra rich Saudi Regime.

Is that right, the Saudi’s – Wahabi supporting, women can’t drive and must cover head to toe, churches are publicly banned, and religious police enforce prayer times – are supporting “Reformists”?? I’d hate to see a “Traditionalist” then.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Often, most questions about the Trinity are met with the response “The Trinity is a mystery”.

I haven’t seen anyone attempt to answer questions about the Trinity, at least not on this forum.

What’s your question – there are entire theological treatises on the Trinity, so this claim is false. There is a Mystery/Spiritual depth to it that is unable to be fully comprehended, but that does not mean one cannot expound on anything. The same Mystery can be said about God’s ONENESS as well. So if you have a problem with the Mystery of God, you have a problem within Islam as well.

 

[SyroMalankara]

In some verses of the Qur’an, Allah refers to Himself as ‘We’. In the Arabic language, this is a majestic plural. The Jews also say that the usage of ‘our’ and ‘us’ in Genesis is a majestic plural in the Hebrew language.

Clearly God’s Trinitarian aspect has been revealed in hints and whispers within the Jewish text (according to Christian belief), and the fact that Muhammad’s uncle was a Syriac/Assyrian Christian monk would have influenced the earlier Quranic verses. It was when most Christians rejected Mohammad’s political and religious rule that slowly the doctrine became narrower and differences were emphasized.

I should also note, that “our likeness” and “our image” cannot be taken literally, as even the first millennium Church rejected anthropomorphism as a heresy.

?? Anthropomorphism is giving human characteristics to God, not God giving Divine characteristics to man, nor God taking on human nature. If Islam rejects all human terms as ‘anthropomorphism’, as it’s implied, many of the 99 names of Allah are also to be rejected [e.g. Al Malik (الملك) The King, Al Hakam (الحكم) The Judge, Al Waali (الوالي) The Patron]

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

What’s your question – there are entire theological treatises on the Trinity, so this claim is false. There is a Mystery/Spiritual depth to it that is unable to be fully comprehended, but that does not mean one cannot expound on anything. The same Mystery can be said about God’s ONENESS as well. So if you have a problem with the Mystery of God, you have a problem within Islam as well.

I am very glad you actually brought this up. Yes…The Oneness of Allah can not be fully comprehended. Just like how the Catholics claim the Holy Trinity is a Mystery. But there is a huge difference! Let me explain.

First thing first, Jesus(pbuh) never thought the doctrine of the Trinity concept anytime during his Ministry. This is a fundamental belief in the Catholic Church and yet Jesus(pbuh) has brought many parables to his disciples but NOWHERE does he claim that there are actually 3 persons in the God Head nor does Jesus say that The Holy Spirit is The Creator of the universe! You will not find this from the words of Jesus (pbuh) himself.

Second. The Oneness of Allah is something ABOVE human understanding because God is so unique and so Majestic that we can not reach with our consciousness to understand how the Divine functions and operates. The Trinity in the other hand however claims something that goes AGAINST human understanding. For one we have no problem in God being the eternal absolute nor do Catholics have any objections to this. But they draw a huge line by saying God is Eternal but finite in the SAME time. This is like me saying God is Love but he will only reward the wicked and punish only the righteous. You might then ask me, but how can God be a Loving God in that sense? Imagine my answer be saying…its a mystery. Same thing with how the Catholics and Protestants approach the difficulty in explaining God being a finite being while God the Father NEVER became a finite being and remained infinite the Whole time while in the SAME time the Son and the Father are both ONE.

Another example, if I said that 1 plus 1 plus 1 plus equal 1 but my logic can not be understood cannot be compared to somebody who says, if you take 1 away from INFINITY you have an infinity amount left.

I hope this helps.

 

[SalamKhan]

Nope.

Majestic plural is when there is more than one and one is speaking for all. If there is only one, then there is no “us” and no “our”

So who is “us” and “our” referring to?

The traditional Jewish Hebrew understanding is majestic plurality, I am no expert in Hebrew, so I am out of my depth here.

Is that right, the Saudi’s – Wahabi supporting, women can’t drive and must cover head to toe, churches are publicly banned, and religious police enforce prayer times – are supporting “Reformists”??

The Wahhabi movement is a ‘Reformist’ movement, in that it rejects the Ahlus Sunnah of the 600 year (at least) period, prior to the emergence of the movement, as heretical or corrupted, and condemns those who are in continuity with the historical Ahlus Sunnah. It’s equivalent in Christianity, would probably be Puritan Protestantism under Oliver Cromwell’s England.

What’s your question – there are entire theological treatises on the Trinity, so this claim is false. There is a Mystery/Spiritual depth to it that is unable to be fully comprehended, but that does not mean one cannot expound on anything. The same Mystery can be said about God’s ONENESS as well. So if you have a problem with the Mystery of God, you have a problem within Islam as well.

There are entire theological treatises on this forum? Right… On a serious note, hiding behind the claim of mystery is not valid, as it was the Church Fathers who defined the doctrine of the Trinity as one ousia and three hypostases, such terminology is not even in the Bible but was initially proposed by Origen (and perhaps the Gnostic Valentinus even earlier). The Church Fathers also criticised pagans based on the content of their beliefs. So your rush to hide behind the claim of mystery, at this point would be intellectual dishonesty.

Clearly God’s Trinitarian aspect has been revealed in hints and whispers within the Jewish text (according to Christian belief), and the fact that Muhammad’s uncle was a Syriac/Assyrian Christian monk would have influenced the earlier Quranic verses. It was when most Christians rejected Mohammad’s political and religious rule that slowly the doctrine became narrower and differences were emphasized.

?? Anthropomorphism is giving human characteristics to God, not God giving Divine characteristics to man, nor God taking on human nature. If Islam rejects all human terms as ‘anthropomorphism’, as it’s implied, many of the 99 names of Allah are also to be rejected [e.g. Al Malik (الملك) The King, Al Hakam (الحكم) The Judge, Al Waali (الوالي) The Patron]

The Prophet (S), did not have any Christian uncles, but the cousin of his first wife was a Hebrew speaking Christian. Your revisionist history means nothing if you can’t even get the simplest details correct.

The literal understanding of “our image” and “our likeness” is that God fashioned man to look like Him, and so the literal understanding must be rejected. His entity does not resemble any of His creation, nor is place or direction attributed to His entity. The 99 Names of Allah are attributes, but they are not each distinct attributes i.e. Mercy is an attribute of His Will.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

Clearly God’s Trinitarian aspect has been revealed in hints and whispers within the Jewish text (according to Christian belief), and the fact that Muhammad’s uncle was a Syriac/Assyrian Christian monk would have influenced the earlier Quranic verses. It was when most Christians rejected Mohammad’s political and religious rule that slowly the doctrine became narrower and differences were emphasized.

You said according to Christian beliefs. Exactly. This is why it was so hard for me to figure out why Christians believe in the Trinity whereas the Jews reject such belief. Jesus Himself was a Jew yet He did not teach that he was the Second Person in the Trinity. If anything he said he and the Father are One but did not go in detail.

Now nobody influenced the texts of the Quran. If that was the case the Quran wouldn’t be what it actually is supposed to be, a direct revelation from God. You have to understand Mohammad (pbuh) was among many Christians and Jews. And yes there are many verses in the Quran that resemble the Jewish and Christian texts, but if you think this is a copy and paste type of thing and then Mohammad (pbuh) added his own personal beliefs to the text, you are greatly mistaken and have failed to understand WHY there are some resemblance between the Quran and the Christian bible.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi peeps,

I am currently working on a blog article titled “5 Reasons Why I’m Not a Muslim”. One of the reasons is an argument I have been trying to understand more fully for some time, but which I could use some help on.

Put roughly, the argument I want to make is that Muslims believe (and/or the Quran says) that the Quran has always existed in heaven. However, the only way it could do that is to co-exist with Allah, which contradicts the principle of tawhid. Therefore, Islam is incoherent and false.

Can this be a sound argument? I’m wondering if it only applies to Sunni Islam, or if it would work with Shiites as well? Also, what of this idea that the Quran is an eternal attribute of speech of Allah? Is that a way by which Muslims escape the argument’s conclusion?

I am immensely grateful for any advice and information anyone might be able to offer.

Many thanks and God bless!

Clem

I find this interesting because Judaism also has the idea that the Torah predates the creation of the universe and is eternal, being the Word of G-d.

 

[meltzerboy]

SyroMalankara;14753606:

Clearly God’s Trinitarian aspect has been revealed in hints and whispers within the Jewish text (according to Christian belief), and the fact that Muhammad’s uncle was a Syriac/Assyrian Christian monk would have influenced the earlier Quranic verses. It was when most Christians rejected Mohammad’s political and religious rule that slowly the doctrine became narrower and differences were emphasized.

You said according to Christian beliefs. Exactly. This is why it was so hard for me to figure out why Christians believe in the Trinity whereas the Jews reject such belief. Jesus Himself was a Jew yet He did not teach that he was the Second Person in the Trinity. If anything he said he and the Father are One but did not go in detail.

Now nobody influenced the texts of the Quran. If that was the case the Quran wouldn’t be what it actually is supposed to be, a direct revelation from God. You have to understand Mohammad (pbuh) was among many Christians and Jews. And yes there are many verses in the Quran that resemble the Jewish and Christian texts, but if you think this is a copy and paste type of thing and then Mohammad (pbuh) added his own personal beliefs to the text, you are greatly mistaken and have failed to understand WHY there are some resemblance between the Quran and the Christian bible.

How do you explain the dietary laws in Islam which resemble so closely those of Judaism? Is it inspiration on the part of Mohammad or imitation of Torah Law with minor changes?

 

[SyroMalankara]

I am very glad you actually brought this up. Yes…The Oneness of Allah can not be fully comprehended. Just like how the Catholics claim the Holy Trinity is a Mystery. But there is a huge difference! Let me explain.

First thing first, Jesus(pbuh) never thought the doctrine of the Trinity concept anytime during his Ministry. This is a fundamental belief in the Catholic Church and yet Jesus(pbuh) has brought many parables to his disciples but NOWHERE does he claim that there are actually 3 persons in the God Head nor does Jesus say that The Holy Spirit is The Creator of the universe! You will not find this from the words of Jesus (pbuh) himself.

Christians of course disagree, since there are myriad of examples in the Bible and Sacred Tradition of this revelation.

Second. The Oneness of Allah is something ABOVE human understanding because God is so unique and so Majestic that we can not reach with our consciousness to understand how the Divine functions and operates. The Trinity in the other hand however claims something that goes AGAINST human understanding. For one we have no problem in God being the eternal absolute nor do Catholics have any objections to this. But they draw a huge line by saying God is Eternal but finite in the SAME time.

God is Eternal, not finite in Christian theology, so you’ve got this wrong.

This is like me saying God is Love but he will only reward the wicked and punish only the righteous. You might then ask me, but how can God be a Loving God in that sense? Imagine my answer be saying…its a mystery.

That would be a contradiction, however, this is not what Christians are saying.

Same thing with how the Catholics and Protestants approach the difficulty in explaining God being a finite being while God the Father NEVER became a finite being and remained infinite the Whole time while in the SAME time the Son and the Father are both ONE.

God the Son is not finite, but when the Son became man, his humanity was finite. You are confusing the Second Person of the Trinity as ONLY human post-incarnation. God the Son came among us for a time, but is a Divine Person.

Another example, if I said that 1 plus 1 plus 1 plus equal 1 but my logic can not be understood cannot be compared to somebody who says, if you take 1 away from INFINITY you have an infinity amount left.

Don’t understand what you are saying here.