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Reuben_J
Guest
Actually Jesus did and a more comprehensive teaching on the Trinity or the interpretation of the Bible rather, would be from the Magisterium or teaching office of the Church.
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OneBlanketBoss
Guest
I am just asking for verses my friend, and then we can move on from there.Actually Jesus did and a more comprehensive teaching on the Trinity or the interpretation of the Bible rather, would be from the Magisterium or teaching office of the Church.
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Reuben_J
Guest
I am not sure that will help you if you do not believe in what we teach. More importantly is what is being taught rather than anyone without the knowledge of the Bible would try to interpret it. I think it also applies to the Quran. For example, I could try to interpret it (Quran) but I am sure you would direct me to a teaching authority in Islam to tell me what the Quran actually says.
In Christianity (Catholic) it probably is slightly different as the Bible is a book given by the Church. The Church came first and decided which books that constituted the Bible. In other word, the Church decided which books of the Bible that portray the teaching of the Church.
Thus the doctrine of the Trinity, which is a doctrine of the Church, would be supported by the Bible.
You can only say that the Church interpreted or understood the Bible wrongly, which is of course not the case, since the writers of the Bible (the New Testaments) were the apostles or their disciples, who were the teachers of Christianity.
I hope this helps.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The Word of God Incarnate not only revealed the Trinity in His Gospels, God commanded His apostles to baptize every nation, tongue and tribe into His new and everlasting Covenant in the name (singular) Trinity.
(After Jesus resurrected from the dead) Mathew 28:19 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…
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SyroMalankara
Guest
The holy Apostle Paul, to the Church in Galatia:
1 Paul an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brethren who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
There Is No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
10 Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ
1 Paul an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brethren who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
There Is No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
10 Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
My position is that God can do ALL things.
God the Father sent His Word (Son) Incarnate to pay a debt no man ( NO prophet, law, holy man or messiah) could ever pay for our salvation.
God the Father did not take on human flesh, The Word of God who is God became flesh for our sake.
God did not take on the form of a dove, you have been misinformed.
The prophet “32 John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven** like a** dove and resting on Him. 33I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.”’…
The LAST prophet (John the baptist aka Elijah) whom God said that “no greater man born of a woman, than John the Baptist”, whom God sent to announce the coming of the Messiah. John Saw the Spirit, (John did not see a dove!) descending from heaven “like a dove”.
Dove gives the description of a divine peace and power that no language or intellect could ever grasp.
I hope this clears up, your misinformed physical appearance of God turning into a dove.
Peace be with you
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Agreed the Godhead (power of God) is not explained in an intellectual way. The Godhead (power of God) is divinely revealed which raises the heart and mind to faith in One God and leaves the carnal mind (intellect) suspended in mystery. For a carnal mind that feeds or is enlightened on itself from an explanation or definition of God, when a carnal mind which relates or hold it’s faith to the physical properties or invisible attributes of the divine, will never have it’s appetite for the divine quenched. For no one can define God, or define God’s power (Godhead) and see God and live.
We do not confuse Sacred Tradition with Divine Revelation both are essential to the Christian (Catholic). You see Sacred Tradition is Divine Revelation being lived out in space and time (all ages).
Peace be with you
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Interesting the first Adam sinned, Abraham sinned, Moses sinned, all the prophets sinned against God in one way or another. How can you say “All prophets were sinless”? To disobey God is to sin. What is your definition of sin? that supports your view that “All the prophets were sinless”?
You are confusing the Essence of God, which does not come down to us, with the divine Presence of God, made present in space and time, who reveals divine revelation, to our humanity.
Do you pretend to know God’s divine Essence? Which can never die, suffer, or become flesh.
We Catholics believe that God (Essence of God) can never taste death, suffer or become flesh.
Divine revelation made present in space and time is our subject of discussion. **God has made His PRESENCE KNOWN, not His divine Essence Known. **God divinely revealed His Presence in His (Son) Word incarnate.
The Word of God, who is God Incarnate became Present (flesh) in the world, who is the Light of the World. Just as the first Adam became flesh at the Word of God from dust, died in sin. When the second Adam (flesh) born without sin, died without sin, that death could not hold Him, resurrected in the flesh eternally lives.
The Holy Immortal One can make His Presence known in space and time. If the Holy Immortal one, cannot reveal His presence within space and time? this immortal being is not, and is never god? A god who cannot speak is a dead god.
The exaltation relates to the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Messiah who is Emmanuel = God with us, who is God who saves.
The eternal exaltation of Jesus, confirms that, The Work that God the Father sent His Son to do for our humanity is once and for all finished. This divine eternal exaltation confirms that no man or angel can never add or subtract from The Word of God. Thus there can be no more divine revelation apart from what God accomplished and finished once and for all humanity.
Christians cannot “overstock the mark” enough, because Jesus (“the mark”) is eternal and living Amen
For God the Father (Presence of God in heaven) to exalt His (God the Son) presence in suffering, death and resurrection, in order to save the world from eternal damnation. Is the God who saves. God incarnate veils His divine Essence in space and time, for NO MAN or PROPHET can see God and live.
It would appear that you and the Jew confuse God’s Essence with God’s Presence here. When God’s presence is made known in space and time, for example; God made His PRESENCE KNOWN to Moses in the Burning Bush, Cloud, Fire, Rock, Mountain etc. Do you or the Jew pretend to believe that Allah = God, became a burning bush? or did god become a cloud, it would be insane for a Jew or Muslim to believe that God became a fire or a rock or god being a mountain.
God divinely revealed His Presence to our humanity in His Living Word incarnate. Just as God revealed His Presence in the Burning Bush, and His Law and the prophets. “God can do all things”. Catholics do not put God in a bottle or bubble that can restrict the power of God. A God who cannot reveal His Presence to His creation is not god.
Peace be with you
H
hasantas
Guest
What that means in our issue of three personalites of Trinity? Do that explain Trinity without a fault? By which way? I just wonder how Christians can accept such thoughts without any doubt.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
NO.
The Father and the Son are One. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. There is no sharing of power in the Trinity. The Son does what ever the Father is doing. The Father loves the Son and the Son loves Father.
The Will of the Son is to do (fulfill and accomplish) the Will of the Father. Here is a mystery; The Father has given (not shared) all power and authority over to the Son.** In what is Consubstantial of the Father and the Son in Essence is One not shared.
**
If the Father Will’s a miracle?, the Son lovingly fulfills and accomplishes the Father’s will in the miracle. The power of God is not shared in the miracle.
In summary; The Father sends the Son.
Peace be with you
meltzerboy
New member
The distinction you make between G-d’s Essence and G-d’s Presence is an interesting one. Do most Catholics realize this? Even more important, is this official Church teaching? I ask this because, according to Catholic belief, Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son of G-d, which seems, to me, to be an indication that He is G-d’s Essence. You, however, are saying that Jesus is G-d’s Presence, likening Him to the Burning Bush, the Law, and the prophets. Indeed, the concept of the hypostatic union, which states that Jesus is fully human AND fully divine, would also seem to suggest that Jesus is G-d Incarnate. Now, Christians do use the expression the Living Word Incarnate, as you have. But the Word (Logos) is said to be G-d as well. In Judaism, the Law is NOT G-d, vital and essential as it is, and, I believe, in Islam, the Qur’an is NOT G-d, despite its tremendous importance. So my question is, how can a Second Person of the Trinity, the Son of G-d, Jesus, Who is the Logos, and referred to as G-d Incarnate and fully divine as well as fully human (which is itself a challenging concept), represent the Divine Presence but NOT the Divine Essence? Jesus must represent something greater than the Burning Bush, the Law, and the mortal, sinful Prophets, correct?
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SyroMalankara
Guest
As far as theologically, Jesus the Divine Person, would be the one example of Divine Essence and Divine Presence being united as Living Incarnate. The continuation of this is in the world is the Most Holy Eucharist, made present again (second coming, in a prefigured sense) at the Divine Liturgy/Mass.
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Reuben_J
Guest
You will get a simpler explanation from me who speaks in layman’s term.
When we say Jesus is both Divine and man, it means just that. He is divine but God is not a man, Jesus is. In man, God was present on earth.
As for the Word and word (one with the big cap and the other is not) - The Word is not Law as how the Jews see it. It is not the Bible.
The Word is the name for God, specifically the Second person of the Trinity, Jesus. This was first encountered in the Bible in the creation, where the world and all things were made through the Word.
Christians therefore can say the Word was God. This God became flesh in Jesus.
The Bible is also expressed as the word of God, but it is not God.
Hope that helps.
V
Vico
Guest
There is just one mind and will in the Trinity, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are never independent.
The Church is infallible on matters of faith and morals.
Catechism answers one question of how it expresses the mystery:
251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
It is a matter of our Profession of faith as taught in the CCC see paragraph 198-257, and related subjects on the Eucharist and Trinity you will find distinctions and teachings on God’s Essence and God’s Presence. Here is just an introduction. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p1.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm
faith.org.uk/article/september-october-2008-the-holy-trinity-in-the-catechism-and-holloway
**The Catechism uses the language of St John and St Paul (including Hebrews) in order to delineate more clearly the Revelation that takes place in the mission of the Son: He is the Word, the image of the invisible God, the radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of His nature (CCC 241). **…This oneness is still emphasized when the Creed goes on to show how it is a real Person, a real Divine Person, who is begotten by the Person of the Father: “God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made.” All of these phrases show a real procession of a real Person who shares the same identical nature.
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER ONE
I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER
198 Our profession of faith begins with God, for God is the First and the Last,1 the beginning and the end of everything. The Credo begins with God the Father, for the Father is the first divine person of the Most Holy Trinity; our Creed begins with the creation of heaven and earth, for creation is the beginning and the foundation of all God’s works.
ARTICLE I
“I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH”
Paragraph 1. I Believe in God
199 “I believe in God”: this first affirmation of the Apostles’ Creed is also the most fundamental. The whole Creed speaks of God, and when it also speaks of man and of the world it does so in relation to God. The other articles of the Creed all depend on the first, just as the remaining Commandments make the first explicit. The other articles help us to know God better as he revealed himself progressively to men. "The faithful first profess their belief in God."2
I. “I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD”
200 These are the words with which the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed begins. The confession of God’s oneness, which has its roots in the divine revelation of the Old Covenant, is inseparable from the profession of God’s existence and is equally fundamental. God is unique; there is only one God: "The Christian faith confesses that God is one in nature, substance and essence."3
201 **To Israel, his chosen, God revealed himself as the only One: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."4 Through the prophets, God calls Israel and all nations to turn to him, the one and only God: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other… . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. ‘Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength.’"5
202 Jesus himself affirms that God is “the one Lord” whom you must love “with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength”.6 At the same time Jesus gives us to understand that he himself is “the Lord”.7 To confess that Jesus is Lord is distinctive of Christian faith. This is not contrary to belief in the One God. Nor does believing in the Holy Spirit as “Lord and giver of life” introduce any division into the One God:**
We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple.8
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
cont;
The Word Incarnate = Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God. The Incarnation of the Son of God who is the Word of God made flesh. We profess that Jesus is fully human without sin and fully divine. The flesh of Jesus Presence veils his divine Essence.
I ask you: Did God reveal His Essence to Moses when God’s presence was in the burning bush?
For Jesus to reveal His Divine Essence would cause space and time to cease to exist. For God’s Divine Essence is eternal existence. That substance which is eternal Essence God does not enter space and time, when the scriptures reveal, “man cannot see God and live”. God’s Eternal Essence does not violate God’s creation laws. Thus the Word of God became flesh.
Peace be with you
“Even more important”, Both Latin Catholics and Orthodox Catholic faith is expressed in the divine Essence and Presence of God. To see and taste that the Lord is good, is expressed and found within our respected Liturgies of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist especially.
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The Word Incarnate = Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God. The Incarnation of the Son of God who is the Word of God made flesh. We profess that Jesus is fully human without sin and fully divine. The flesh of Jesus Presence veils his divine Essence.
I ask you: Did God reveal His Essence to Moses when God’s presence was in the burning bush?
No, I was explaining that nothing is impossible for God. How difficult is it for a Jew or Muslim to believe that God was present in the burning bush? Or for God to give the Law to Moses in presence, and for God to be present in the hearing of the prophets? That Word which Moses and the Prophets heard proceeded from the Father’s voice, and the Word was with God and the Word is God and became flesh, John the baptist gave witness of this and God the Holy Spirit confirmed it at the baptism of Jesus.
Amen, you are not far from the Kingdom of God.
Please allow me to clarify; Jesus is the Logos of God incarnate, living in Presence. The Old Testament and the memoirs of the apostles that are recorded in ink on a page is not God. That which is divinely revealed from these comes from God. The Word of God is living. Here an explanation of the procession of God in Trinity is introduced. We can expound further in future post’s here, if you like?
The Law and the prophets are fulfilled in the Word of God Incarnate. Upon this divine revelation; No Man or ANGEL can add or subtract from the Word of God or be accursed by God. Man cannot save himself from the Law, Only God can fulfill the law and the prophets, this God did by sending His Word to become flesh for our sake.
Yes, there is something greater than Moses and Solomon here; Jesus the Logos made flesh never represents the Divine Presence, that is not our Catholic faith. Jesus the Logos made flesh is the Divine Presence in procession that veils His Divine Essence. God’s Divine Essence does not come down to us.
For Jesus to reveal His Divine Essence would cause space and time to cease to exist. For God’s Divine Essence is eternal existence. That substance which is eternal Essence God does not enter space and time, when the scriptures reveal, “man cannot see God and live”. God’s Eternal Essence does not violate God’s creation laws. Thus the Word of God became flesh.
Peace be with you
S
steve_b
Guest
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Vico
Guest
The Real Presence in the Eucharist is divinity (person) and humanity (soul, body and blood).
Modern Catholic Dictionary
Perichoresis
The penetration and indwelling of the three divine persons reciprocally in one another. In the Greek conception of the Trinity there is an emphasis on the mutual penetration of the three persons, thus bringing out the unity of the divine essence. In the Latin idea called circumincession the stress is more on the internal processions of the three divine persons. In both traditions, however, the fundamental basis of the Trinitarian perichoresis is the one essence of the three persons in God.
The term is also applied to the close union of the two natures in Christ. Although the power that unites the two natures proceeds exclusively from Christ’s divinity, the result is a most intimate coalescence. The Godhead, which itself is impenetrable, penetrates the humanity, which is thereby deified without ceasing to be perfectly human.
Real Presence
The manner of Christ’s presence in the Holy Eucharist. In its definition on the subject, the Council of Trent in 1551 declared that “in the sacrament of the most holy Holy Eucharist is contained truly, really, and substantially the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Denzinger 1636, 1640). Hence Christ is present truly or actually and not only symbolically. He is present really, that is objectively in the Eucharist and not only subjectively in the mind of the believer. And he is present substantially, that is with all that makes Christ Christ and not only spiritually in imparting blessings on those who recieve the sacrament. The one who is present is the whole Christ (totus Christus), with all the attributes of his divinity and all the physical parts and properties of his humanity. (Etym. Latin realis, of the thing itself; extramental + prae-esse, to be at hand, to be immediately efficacious.)
A
arthra
Guest
In my opinion you need to have reference to Qur’anic verse first such as
- We did send Messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children: and it was never the part of a Messenger to bring a Sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded).** *For each period is a Book (revealed).
- Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.
The “Mother of the Book” meaning the source of the Qur’an and not necessarily the Qur’an itself.
H
hasantas
Guest
"baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. " So that sentence prove Trinity! But I cannot make any relation between Trinity and that sentence. To confess faith a Muslim say names of God(Allah) and prophet Muhammad. But nobody think that Muhammad has an equality with God. If God had had such triune personalities so God would inform the issue very clearly in revelation. By revelation God inform very explicitly that God is one by every ways. So that triune personality of God seems to be thought of people. There is no any valid mark and sentence in scripture for that issue. Even there is no any sentence which may point that God may have triune structure.
Here Bible say God is one and does not talk about mysteries:
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mark 12
44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[a]? John 5
“Some early manuscripts the Only One”
And Qur’an caution:
171- O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. An-Nisa
In verse the word and soul is used. If we think by the way you do so we can conclusion that word is one personality of God and soul is another. Yes. Yes that is just what you do in Bible.
There is no any statement about a “mystery”. Bible do not say the triune structure of God is a mystery. And there is no any valid evidence that first believers used to think God had a triune personality. Such thought emerged very away from land of Jesus preached.
Again again again I say: God does not incarnate!
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