An Eternal Hell Doesn't Make Sense

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Flopfoot

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Warning: this post won’t help you with your faith. But I’m not here to convince you of my ideas (so I won’t be back to debate any answers, though I might post to thank people for good answers). What I want to do is express my line of thought and see how you would answer it.

What good would it do for God to send a bad person to hell? Does this punishment teach them not to be bad in the future? The problem is that they’re stuck in hell forever, so teaching them a lesson is useless - they’ll never get a chance to use it.

So is it designed as a deterrent to living people: don’t be like this guy or you’ll go to hell? But living people don’t know who’s gone to hell and who hasn’t. Even if God was to somehow show us a picture of what hell looks like, what would convince us that it’s not an illusion? Wouldn’t it be worse for God to actually create a hell and send people there, than to lie about there being a hell when there actually isn’t one?

On the other hand, if God was to let bad people into heaven, then that wouldn’t act as an incentive for living people to live bad lives, because they don’t know that bad people have been let into heaven. Sending bad people to hell does no good either for those people or for living people, while letting bad people into heaven does no harm.

What if God is more interested in justice than mercy - that is, he cares more about giving people what they deserve than giving people what is good for them? Even in this unlikely situation an eternal hell makes no sense (a temporary purgatory is fine though). What could a human, who lives in a temporal world, do that is so bad that it deserves an eternal punishment? How can a human do eternal damage? (Don’t say “they could lead people to hell” because then you’re assuming hell exists to prove hell exists). Say you figure out the total number of “years alive” lost when Hitler killed 6 million people, that’s still not infinite.
 
Flopfoot said:
What good would it do for God to send a bad person to hell? Does this punishment teach them not to be bad in the future? The problem is that they’re stuck in hell forever, so teaching them a lesson is useless - they’ll never get a chance to use it…
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This premise operates under the assumption that the person’s will is changeable after death.

That they would change their desire to reject God into a desire to accept God.

I don’t see how that would be possible. Heaven, or Hell is not a temporal place, it is outside Time.
 
Flopfoot said:
Warning: this post won’t help you with your faith. But I’m not here to convince you of my ideas (so I won’t be back to debate any answers, though I might post to thank people for good answers). What I want to do is express my line of thought and see how you would answer it.

What good would it do for God to send a bad person to hell? Does this punishment teach them not to be bad in the future? The problem is that they’re stuck in hell forever, so teaching them a lesson is useless - they’ll never get a chance to use it.

So is it designed as a deterrent to living people: don’t be like this guy or you’ll go to hell? But living people don’t know who’s gone to hell and who hasn’t. Even if God was to somehow show us a picture of what hell looks like, what would convince us that it’s not an illusion? Wouldn’t it be worse for God to actually create a hell and send people there, than to lie about there being a hell when there actually isn’t one?

On the other hand, if God was to let bad people into heaven, then that wouldn’t act as an incentive for living people to live bad lives, because they don’t know that bad people have been let into heaven. Sending bad people to hell does no good either for those people or for living people, while letting bad people into heaven does no harm.

What if God is more interested in justice than mercy - that is, he cares more about giving people what they deserve than giving people what is good for them? Even in this unlikely situation an eternal hell makes no sense (a temporary purgatory is fine though). What could a human, who lives in a temporal world, do that is so bad that it deserves an eternal punishment? How can a human do eternal damage? (Don’t say “they could lead people to hell” because then you’re assuming hell exists to prove hell exists). Say you figure out the total number of “years alive” lost when Hitler killed 6 million people, that’s still not infinite.
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olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml
 
Because we are “temporal” creatures it is very hard for us to comprehend what “eternity” actually means.

Time is but 1 of the dimensions that make up our Universe.
We can, while living within the time dimension change our minds, as a result of which future events are set in motion.

However once the time dimension is done away with, we would live in the eternal NOW. There is no past or future.
In this new reality we are not able to make any changes, our minds are set forever.
Just like the Angels once they chose either GOD or against GOD, since they also live outside the temporal bounds cannot change their minds either.
If an Angel can’t change his mind what make you think a mere human could.

Now Hell simply means, separated from GOD, that’s what they chose.
 
Your premise is wrong. God doesn’t “send” people to hell, people end up there because they choose not to be with God. Hell is where God is not.

I recently heard a protestant speaker talk on the story of the prodigal son. I thought he had an interesting insight that I hadn’t heard before. He said that Jesus not only gives us a good example of God’s infinite mercy, but also gives us a glimpse of hell. The older son who was obedient and stayed at home with his father was so upset that his brother was being feasted and celebrated that he refused to go into the house. His father begged him to come and celebrate with them but the older son’s pride made him stay away. He would rather stay out in the cold and dark than come in where there was light and warmth. This is a good illustration of how some people might let their own pride turn them away from God, even though he calls us all to be with him.

As long we are alive, we have the opportunity to choose to be with God. Once we die our final choice is indeed final and God gives us our way.
 
First, people have to know that something is grave matter, committed it with FULL knowledge, and with FULL consent.

Ok, other than Catholics who were properly taught Church teaching on contraceptives, MOST people who use them don’t know that it is grave matter and they definitely aren’t committing it with full knowledge, because then they wouldn’t deliberately be doing it.
For instance, take your run of the mill devout Baptist married couple :
They were virgins when they married, only chaste kisses and hand holding while dating, occasionally placing a head on the other’s shoulder, you know totally innocent. Doing the right thing type of kids. They get married, decide that they don’t want kiddos for whatever reason right now, so she gets on the pill. They both think that this is totally innocent and the right thing to do. They don’t know it is wrong, you have to know for it to be mortal sin. They aren’t consenting to being separated from God.

Hell is for those who know and choose not to “trust and obey.”

And I think Hell is a wonderful deterrent. Stops me from doing lots of things.
 
I think Brendan hit it.

Repentance takes time, and time runs out in death. There is no more chance to repent.

ICXC NIKA
 
Sorry for posting again when I said I wouldn’t, but you reminded me of part of my reasoning that I forgot to mention above. (And thanks for all the replies so far).

Let’s say that hell is a place that people choose to go to rather than a place they are sent to as a punishment. (I can’t think why God would allow such a choice, though). And I mean “choose” in the sense that they are asked point blank do you wanna go to heaven or hell, not choice in the sense “you chose to commit the crime therefore you chose to go to jail” (I would consider that sense to be a punishment). There are three possibilities:

God lets people know that hell is worse than heaven before they choose. In that case, no one would choose to go to hell.

God doesn’t let people know that hell is worse than heaven before they choose. But why would he do that?

Hell is not worse than heaven, just different. In that case, why do we care who goes there?
 
A priest told me years ago that hell was the absence of God. "nuff said.:dts:
 
Flopfoot said:
What good would it do for God to send a bad person to hell? Does this punishment teach them not to be bad in the future? The problem is that they’re stuck in hell forever, so teaching them a lesson is useless - they’ll never get a chance to use it.
Click to expand...
Two issues:

God doesn’t send people to Hell. We chose to go to Hell by our actions.

Therefore, Lessons are learned on Earth. You are stuck in Hell forever by screwing up your life on Earth. Earth is our opportunity to present to God that we Love Him with our whole heart, mind and soul and want to spend Eternity with Him. If we don’t display this, then we deserve the eternal punishment for disobeying our Creator.

Pax
 
Flopfoot said:
Warning: this post won’t help you with your faith. But I’m not here to convince you of my ideas (so I won’t be back to debate any answers, though I might post to thank people for good answers). What I want to do is express my line of thought and see how you would answer it.

What good would it do for God to send a bad person to hell? Does this punishment teach them not to be bad in the future? The problem is that they’re stuck in hell forever, so teaching them a lesson is useless - they’ll never get a chance to use it.

So is it designed as a deterrent to living people: don’t be like this guy or you’ll go to hell? But living people don’t know who’s gone to hell and who hasn’t. Even if God was to somehow show us a picture of what hell looks like, what would convince us that it’s not an illusion? Wouldn’t it be worse for God to actually create a hell and send people there, than to lie about there being a hell when there actually isn’t one?

On the other hand, if God was to let bad people into heaven, then that wouldn’t act as an incentive for living people to live bad lives, because they don’t know that bad people have been let into heaven. Sending bad people to hell does no good either for those people or for living people, while letting bad people into heaven does no harm.

What if God is more interested in justice than mercy - that is, he cares more about giving people what they deserve than giving people what is good for them? Even in this unlikely situation an eternal hell makes no sense (a temporary purgatory is fine though). What could a human, who lives in a temporal world, do that is so bad that it deserves an eternal punishment? How can a human do eternal damage? (Don’t say “they could lead people to hell” because then you’re assuming hell exists to prove hell exists). Say you figure out the total number of “years alive” lost when Hitler killed 6 million people, that’s still not infinite.
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So are you rejecting the teachings of Christ and the Church that hell is eternal?

If so, what other teachings of the Church do you reject? :confused:
 
Flopfoot said:
Sorry for posting again when I said I wouldn’t, but you reminded me of part of my reasoning that I forgot to mention above. (And thanks for all the replies so far).

Let’s say that hell is a place that people choose to go to rather than a place they are sent to as a punishment. (I can’t think why God would allow such a choice, though). And I mean “choose” in the sense that they are asked point blank do you wanna go to heaven or hell, not choice in the sense “you chose to commit the crime therefore you chose to go to jail” (I would consider that sense to be a punishment). There are three possibilities:

God lets people know that hell is worse than heaven before they choose. In that case, no one would choose to go to hell.

God doesn’t let people know that hell is worse than heaven before they choose. But why would he do that?
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It’s not a choice between heaven and hell. It’s a choice between to love God or not to love God. By that choice determines heaven or hell. For many people God just isn’t important enough to give him an hour of our time once a week. Do they really love God or not? That’s just one very basic example.

If God is love, than to be separated from him would be extremely unpleasant. In the scriptures, heaven is always expressed as bliss, joy, love, happiness, peace. Hell is always depicted as unpleasant, wailing and gnashing of teeth, envious of those in heaven, etc. So God has already told us which is better.

In this life it is difficult to choose God over our own desires. By our actions (which are chosen by what we love) we either separate ourselves from God or unite ourselves to him, and that is how we choose heaven or hell. Often we want the immediate pleasures that we can see now, versus the eternal joys that have been promised that we don’t see very well at this moment.

Our whole life on this earth is made up of our choices either to love God or not. That will be our judgement.
Hell is not worse than heaven, just different. In that case, why do we care who goes there?
Click to expand...
Since God is the source of all that is good, when we separate ourselves from the source, there is not a drop of good in hell. No joy, love, peace, kindness, beauty, friendship, pleasure, nothing that we actually desire. So yes, hell is definitely different than heaven but it is void of all that is good and therefore it is absolutely the worst and most undesirable state to be in. For that reason, I wouldn’t want that for anyone.
 
Flopfoot said:
Let’s say that hell is a place that people choose to go to rather than a place they are sent to as a punishment. (I can’t think why God would allow such a choice, though).
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It’s called “free will” for a reason.
There are three possibilities:

God lets people know that hell is worse than heaven before they choose. In that case, no one would choose to go to hell.

God doesn’t let people know that hell is worse than heaven before they choose. But why would he do that?

Hell is not worse than heaven, just different. In that case, why do we care who goes there?
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Jesus has told us what hell is like and it’s not pleasant. Lots of fire and teeth-gnashing. And even knowing this, people do choose not to be with God.

I’m curious. You say you’re Catholic, but you don’t believe in hell?
 
Chesterton had a nice quote.
There are only two kinds of people in the end: Those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done”.
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To be sort of pithy about it, God is Love. Sin separates us from God. Heaven is the presence of God; Hell is the absence of God.

What do we need to do to gain heaven? We need to know, love, and serve God in this world.

Why wouldn’t God let us choose to separate ourselves in the next world, if he already allows us to choose to reject him in this world? Didn’t a third of the angels refuse to serve as well? It’s all part and parcel of free will.

Rather than arguing about, “Why would God do this?” or “What’s the real meaning of that?” it might be more profitable to turn an eye upon our own individual actions. We know what our work on earth is; are we doing everything we can with the graces and circumstances God has given to us? The test is open book; have we applied that information to our lives and our actions? Rather than speculating about generalities, we need to focus on the specifics of our own lives, because when the time comes, and we are confronted with our own works, there will be no excuses or explanations or arguing. Just truth.

From psalm 130…
If you, Lord, kept a record of sins,
Lord, who could stand?
4 But with you there is forgiveness,
so that we can, with reverence, serve you.
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There are 2 major issues with your notion:
  1. God does not send anyone to hell. We send ourselves by not wanting to be with him and not loving Him. Sin is a result of us failing to love God and our pride in thinking we know better than God. God is pure love, but if fail to love or choose not to love, the. How can we exist in pure love? Meaning… God is love. If we don’t love God, then we don’t love pue love. If we don’t love pure love, we don’t accept love, and we don’t know how to love; then how can we spending eternity in pure love?
  2. the afterlife is outside space and time. One thing that physics teaches us is how strange relativity is. With Relativity (inside space and time) when one is traveling close to the speed of light, hundreds of years can pass by for what feels like hours or days for the space traveler. But that’s still inside space and time. When you are outside space and time, the past, present and future are all happening at the same time. That is why prayers heard today or 20 years from now can be applied in the past. For example, let’s assume that my grandfather made it to Heaven from purgatory 20 years ago. It’s possible that the prayer I say for him 20 year from now (in the future) will be the final prayer that helps him get into Heaven. Why? Because the past, present & future are all at the same time when you are in the afterlife. Which means that 5 minutes and eternity are the same thing as well.
Therefore, who we are when we die is who we will be for eternity because their is no “time” for use to grow. We will either be one with God or we won’t. Our souls are what they are when we die. There is not changing our hearts over time in the afterlife because there is no time. Our souls exist, but we cease being temporal beings.

The only valid question to ask is: are more people sent to purgatory than hell? And that’s a question we really won’t know until we are one with God.
 
In my opinion, the original premise of your post is wrong. God doesn’t send anyone to hell. The people who go to hell choose hell. They choose to be separated, permanently, from God. That’s what Hell is- separation from God. Whether there is fire and brimstone there, I don’t know. Some people say yes, others say it’s a metaphor. I tend to think it’s a metaphor- I think that there will be a lot of pain in hell but of the mental anguish sort. I think the separation from souls who did not go to hell will hurt. I think separation from God will will be torture. I think that being stuck with all the really bad people who rejected God will be awful- imagine being in a place where everyone is evil, where no good exists, because everyone there rejected God and all good comes from God, and God’s not there. I think hell will be agonizing, but I also think that anyone who ends up there made that choice to be there.

And if God was more interested in Justice than Mercy, I don’t think any one of us would ever make it heaven. None of us “deserve” heaven. God has given us so many ways to go, and they all are of His Mercy. Our sins are wiped clean at baptism, and forgiven at confession. Divine Mercy Sunday offers us a yearly chance at having our sins wiped completely clean, almost like being baptized again. We can make penances to pay for our sins here, so we don’t have to pay for them in Purgatory. But barring that, God has given us Purgatory where we can be cleansed so we can come into His presence. That’s pretty merciful, if you ask me.
 
Flopfoot said:
Sorry for posting again when I said I wouldn’t, but you reminded me of part of my reasoning that I forgot to mention above. (And thanks for all the replies so far).

Let’s say that hell is a place that people choose to go to rather than a place they are sent to as a punishment. (I can’t think why God would allow such a choice, though). And I mean “choose” in the sense that they are asked point blank do you wanna go to heaven or hell, not choice in the sense “you chose to commit the crime therefore you chose to go to jail” (I would consider that sense to be a punishment). There are three possibilities:

God lets people know that hell is worse than heaven before they choose. In that case, no one would choose to go to hell.

God doesn’t let people know that hell is worse than heaven before they choose. But why would he do that?

Hell is not worse than heaven, just different. In that case, why do we care who goes there?
Click to expand...
Because God respects our free will, pure and simple.

I don’t think anyone said Hell isn’t worse than Heaven. It would be the opposite of Heaven, a place of nothing but misery and pain. How could it not be? All Good comes from God. God won’t be there, because every soul there will have rejected God. I know that personally I don’t want to go there, and I don’t want anyone I know to go there either.
 
Boy, things sure have “gone to hell” on this board lately. :rotfl:
 
Brendan said:
This premise operates under the assumption that the person’s will is changeable after death.

That they would change their desire to reject God into a desire to accept God.

I don’t see how that would be possible. Heaven, or Hell is not a temporal place, it is outside Time.
Click to expand...
I know the Church says that hell is eternal, but does it explicitly state somewhere that there is no time in hell? Is it not possible to have passage of time that goes on for ever?

Also, is it possible to experience anything (for instance suffering or separation) if there is no time?
 
openmind77 said:
I know the Church says that hell is eternal, but does it explicitly state somewhere that there is no time in hell? Is it not possible to have passage of time that goes on for ever?

Also, is it possible to experience anything (for instance suffering or separation) if there is no time?
Click to expand...
The definition of “eternal” is “outside of time”.

ICXC NIKA
 
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