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tonyrey
Guest
Many cannot see the wood for the trees. “If you love me keep my commandments” is clear even to a child if we simplify: “If you love me do what I say”.
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Many cannot see the wood for the trees. “If you love me keep my commandments” is clear even to a child if we simplify: “If you love me do what I say”.
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tonyrey
Guest
God doesn’t send anyone to hell.
God doesn’t create hell.
Good people and bad people cannot co-exist.
God is powerless if we use the power He has given us to reject His love and live for ourselves.
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tonyrey
Guest
Hell is worse than heaven but those who choose hell are convinced it is better to be independent and are prepared to suffer for it - as so many people do in this world. They get what they want but they are never satisfied because the more they get the more they want…
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Brendan
Guest
Time is a component of the material universe. Heaven (or Hell), by definition, are outside the material universe.
Ergo, Heaven and Hell are outside of time.
To imply that Heaven or Hell experience time would mean that they are a physical place in our Universe. But that is contrary to the Catholic definition of either.
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Aloysium
Guest
Unsure whether I can communicate this, here are my :twocents: on what is being discussed:
Our lives are eternal in three senses:
For example, unchanging and lasting forever is the relationship between energy and mass. It remains the same all the time.
Spiritually there exists good and evil, ultimately based on the will of God, which is love.
To the degree that we do not love, we are separated from God, who is Goodness, Beauty, Truth and Life.
Suffering cannot but ensue from this separation.
Hell is an eternal condition of unending movement in the moment away from God.
It had a beginning in time with the fall of the angels.
It is perpetuated in man through individual decisions made during our lives, which are grounded outside of time.
What is involved are not blind forces but living states of being; this movement away from God can then also be understood as His judgement.
God who is all merciful, knowing and understanding, forgives us.
In order to enjoy the benefits of that forgiveness, we must repent.
We must move back towards God; we must follow the Way, who is Jesus Christ.
Once we die, we die; it is over. This is complicated, however.
We are judged on what we have done with our lives, whom we have become given God’s graces.
If we have given ourselves over to truth and charity, that is who we are in eternity.
If our lives are a lie, bringing harm to others and ugliness into creation, that is whom we have made of ourselves.
I believe we will all be given an opportunity to repent.
As many angels became demons, many persons will apparently choose like-wise.
As we grow in the Way, towards greater life and freedom,
we alternatively, can sink into oblivion.
God brings us forth into creation and we return it all, losing ourselves in joyous communion with Him.
Creation as the breathing in and out of the Spirit.
At the other extreme, He brings us into being, seen as the person we are, in all our unrepented wickedness.
Existence here is torture, from which we seek refuge in nothingness.
As we may eternal bathe in the Beatific Vision, we may find ourselves perpetually running from the Light.
When I go up on a ladder to fix something, I do not look down. There is so much to do in this world, what a waste it is to not look upwards and try to fix it!
Our lives are eternal in three senses:
- God creates time. He thereby exists in all time and transcends it. Who we are and what we have done is immutably known to God.
- We are able to observe time as an ongoing movement in the present because we are, albeit finite, in God’s likeness, eternal beings, also outside time.
- It has been revealed that our souls continue after our death and that we will be resurrected.
For example, unchanging and lasting forever is the relationship between energy and mass. It remains the same all the time.
Spiritually there exists good and evil, ultimately based on the will of God, which is love.
To the degree that we do not love, we are separated from God, who is Goodness, Beauty, Truth and Life.
Suffering cannot but ensue from this separation.
Hell is an eternal condition of unending movement in the moment away from God.
It had a beginning in time with the fall of the angels.
It is perpetuated in man through individual decisions made during our lives, which are grounded outside of time.
What is involved are not blind forces but living states of being; this movement away from God can then also be understood as His judgement.
God who is all merciful, knowing and understanding, forgives us.
In order to enjoy the benefits of that forgiveness, we must repent.
We must move back towards God; we must follow the Way, who is Jesus Christ.
Once we die, we die; it is over. This is complicated, however.
We are judged on what we have done with our lives, whom we have become given God’s graces.
If we have given ourselves over to truth and charity, that is who we are in eternity.
If our lives are a lie, bringing harm to others and ugliness into creation, that is whom we have made of ourselves.
I believe we will all be given an opportunity to repent.
As many angels became demons, many persons will apparently choose like-wise.
As we grow in the Way, towards greater life and freedom,
we alternatively, can sink into oblivion.
God brings us forth into creation and we return it all, losing ourselves in joyous communion with Him.
Creation as the breathing in and out of the Spirit.
At the other extreme, He brings us into being, seen as the person we are, in all our unrepented wickedness.
Existence here is torture, from which we seek refuge in nothingness.
As we may eternal bathe in the Beatific Vision, we may find ourselves perpetually running from the Light.
When I go up on a ladder to fix something, I do not look down. There is so much to do in this world, what a waste it is to not look upwards and try to fix it!
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PumpkinCookie
Guest
This is a statement of Pelagianism. Don’t worry, I think this makes much more sense too! However, this isn’t what the RCC actually teaches.
Read Aquinas about grace:
newadvent.org/summa/2109.htm
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PumpkinCookie
Guest
The RCC insists that human beings exist bodily in both heaven and hell. Bodies are made of matter, and matter takes up space. Tell me, how can a body exist without space (i.e. “physical place”)?
catholic.com/tracts/resurrection-of-the-body
That quote is from Catholic Answer’s own tract called “Resurrection of the Body.” There are many other quotes from authoritative sources showing that the RCC teaches that human beings will have physical bodies in both heaven and hell.
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openmind77
Guest
If they are not revealed to us, then why claim that there is no time.As I said above, how are we to know? The details are not revealed to us.
In a hell without some sort of passage of time (may not be like physical time), a person would be static in a state like Solo below. He may look uncomfortable, but I don’t think he experiences anything - no suffering, no pain, just frozen :
http://www.chuckstorey.com/Han Solo/DSC00271.JPG
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fred_conty
Guest
Flopfoot,
I believe the answer lays in knowing what heaven is…God.
What heaven is not … sin.
These two simple ideas have a lot to teach us. If a person remains a sinner, he remains apart from God. God is heaven. Sin is opposite God. A person remaining in their sin chooses that over God. It isn’t as tho we can chose sin and chose God. They are opposites. Both cannot be obtained at the same time because one excludes the other. Having God excludes sin and having sin excludes God. It isn’t as tho I may chose both and everything works out well. Heat is the opposite of cold. If we chose hot than that eliminates the cold.
God is heaven…sin is opposite God. It is impossible to have both for one does not allow the other because of their very nature.
God is all good.
Sin is all evil.
May God be kind to you.
I believe the answer lays in knowing what heaven is…God.
What heaven is not … sin.
These two simple ideas have a lot to teach us. If a person remains a sinner, he remains apart from God. God is heaven. Sin is opposite God. A person remaining in their sin chooses that over God. It isn’t as tho we can chose sin and chose God. They are opposites. Both cannot be obtained at the same time because one excludes the other. Having God excludes sin and having sin excludes God. It isn’t as tho I may chose both and everything works out well. Heat is the opposite of cold. If we chose hot than that eliminates the cold.
God is heaven…sin is opposite God. It is impossible to have both for one does not allow the other because of their very nature.
God is all good.
Sin is all evil.
May God be kind to you.
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tonyrey
Guest
They are glorified bodies like Christ’s which means they are not in the same category as the physical bodies we have in this world.
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PumpkinCookie
Guest
So are they not made of matter? If they’re not, then how can they be properly called “bodies?”
If they are, please tell me how matter can exist without time and space?
Further, why do the proverbial “saints/popes/doctors/councils/etc” insist that the “glorified body” will be a transformation of the same bodies we have now? Why would the damned be granted “glorified bodies?” To make their eternal sensory torment possible? How can one have physical senses if one doesn’t have nerves?
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GEddie
Guest
Bodyhood is intrinsic to being human. We remain human beings.
“Matter” is not limited to our biological ground substance, which is in fact, dependent on a very narrow band of physical conditions. The “human body” we now know is not equal to maintaining life everlasting (or even human life indefinitely).
ICXC NIKA
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spiderweb
Guest
We don’t really know exactly what it means to have “glorified bodies”. We do have some indications of this thought as Jesus after he rose from the dead ate with the apostles (Luke 24:41-43). This is something that only a physical body would be able to do. On the other hand Jesus entered a room where the doors were shut and presumably locked “for fear of the Jews”, and yet he stood in their midst (John 20:19). A physical body would not be able to either walk through the wall or the doors only a spiritual body would be able to do this. The apostles seeing Jesus thought they were seeing a spirit or ghost but Jesus assures them that a spirit would not have flesh and blood (Luke 24:36-39). Also Jesus “vanished out of their sight” while they were eating with him (Luke 24:30-31). So from this glimpse, we know that the glorified body will be both physical and spiritual and not the same as our bodies are now.
All people will receive their bodies at the resurrection of the dead on the last day. However only the saints in heaven will receive a “glorified body”. It is glorified because it is in heaven. The condemned in hell will receive their eternal bodies corrupted by sin to their eternal shame.
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spiderweb
Guest
The way I understand it is that our spiritual state will be “frozen” (like poor Hans Solo) which will be eternal bliss with God or eternal torment separated from God. In other words there will never be a change of heart or desires either way. However, unlike Hans in carbonite, we will still be free to actually “do” things and thus will be able to experience joy, suffering, love, etc.
Who we are at our core will not change (thus no time), but we will be able to truly live in the family of God, or live separated from God according to how we have formed our will and desires.
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openmind77
Guest
Why can’t there be a change of heart, don’t they have freewill anymore?
If they can feel something, why not feel remorse? Is the person in hell forced into NOT repenting after death?
Anyway, there must be time in heaven since everyone is waiting for their glorified bodies after the bodies are resurrected. Or has that already happened there?
Both heaven and hell are said to be eternal, but they were both created at some point in time, which means they had a beginning, which means they are not really eternal - just everlasting.
Like I said, this whole belief about hell as well as heaven is confused and illogical.
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spiderweb
Guest
The most simple understanding, at least for me, is that heaven and hell are states of being, not specifically a place. Heaven is the “state” in which our freewill is directly united with God. In essence this means that using our freewill in heaven always involves choosing to do the good. Our freewill in hell is always choosing to be opposed to God. This is somewhat difficult to grasp because we don’t see that here and now. What we have now is choosing either with God or opposed to God and we often flip back and forth.
But we can even see now in this lifetime, that many people just always want to do whatever they want. They see God as an obstacle to themselves. On the other hand you also see people who sincerely want to do the will of God but sometimes fail. So even in this life, you can see people that don’t want to be united with God and those that do want to be united with God.
To use an analogy, right now we are like clay molding ourselves. When we die, the clay will be hardened and there will be no going back. It’s not as if we will be forced into NOT repenting after death, it is that our hearts are hardened and we will continue to refuse to repent after death.
God is the creator of time and as such is outside of time. Time does not exist for God, he is always in the eternal Now. Since those in heaven will be “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4), those in the state of heaven will be outside of time. On the other hand, it seems to me that having glorified bodies of some sort would also imply that there is or will be a “place” of some sort for us to use those bodies. This is just my own personal speculation and this place is not what we refer to as “heaven”. If you are only thinking of time as a measurement of physical change, then I guess you could say there is time in this “place”. However, since being “in heaven” is more correctly being in a state of unification with God, and God is in the eternal Now, then there is no time in heaven. And no, they have not received their glorified bodies yet.
God is outside of time, therefore heaven has always existed. On the other hand hell was “made for the devil and his angels” (Matt 25:41).
Heaven is both eternal and everlasting, but I think you are correct that hell is just everlasting.
It may be confusing, but I would disagree that it is illogical. Part of the problem is that we really don’t have words to describe it nor do we have anything to compare it to in our experience. I would say it may be difficult to understand, but not illogical. I would also say that our understanding of it is extremely limited, which also makes it harder to try and explain to others. It’s something that is only loosely grasped.
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tonyrey
Guest
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seagal
Guest
Good analogy
That’s my feeling too. Although a few people have been granted visions of heaven and hell, no human has actually been there and returned to tell us about it. And the visions may not have been literal, but merely what the human intellect can understand. All we know for sure is that heaven and hell both exist because Jesus talked about both. He described heaven as eternal happiness and hell as eternal torment. The rest is left to our imagination.
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spiderweb
Guest
I also just wanted to add that there is a difference between “repentance” and “regret”. Repentance is a form of love that basically feels remorse for hurting or offending someone else. Regret is remorse based on the consequences that affect you because you offended someone else.
Example- A murderer in prison may feel repentance for actually killing someone, causing pain to their loved ones, etc. But he may also not have any repentance for killing that person and could care less about the harm he caused to their family, but instead regrets his actions because now he is in prison for life.
Since God is the source of all love, when we choose to separate ourselves from the love of God during this lifetime, then we have cut ourselves off from Love itself. As such, there is no repentance (since this stems from love) for those who cut themselves off from God. Hell is filled with regret but no love.
These are just my own definitions of repentance and regret trying to make a point. Hope it helps.
Example- A murderer in prison may feel repentance for actually killing someone, causing pain to their loved ones, etc. But he may also not have any repentance for killing that person and could care less about the harm he caused to their family, but instead regrets his actions because now he is in prison for life.
Since God is the source of all love, when we choose to separate ourselves from the love of God during this lifetime, then we have cut ourselves off from Love itself. As such, there is no repentance (since this stems from love) for those who cut themselves off from God. Hell is filled with regret but no love.
These are just my own definitions of repentance and regret trying to make a point. Hope it helps.
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Techno2000
Guest
re·gret
rəˈɡret/
verb
1.
feel sad, repentant, or disappointed over (something that has happened or been done, especially a loss or missed opportunity).
“she immediately regretted her words”
synonyms: be sorry about, feel contrite about, feel remorse about/for, be remorseful about, rue, repent (of), feel repentant about, be regretful at/about More
antonyms: welcome, applaud
used in polite formulas to express apology for or sadness over something unfortunate or unpleasant.
“any inconvenience to readers is regretted”
archaic
feel sorrow for the loss or absence of (something pleasant).
“my home, when shall I cease to regret you!”
noun
noun: regret; plural noun: regrets
1.
a feeling of sadness, repentance, or disappointment over something that has happened or been done.
“she expressed her regret at Virginia’s death”
synonyms: remorse, sorrow, contrition, contriteness, repentance, penitence, guilt, compunction, remorsefulness, ruefulness
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