An Eternal Hell Doesn't Make Sense

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re·gret
rəˈɡret/
verb
1.
feel sad, repentant, or disappointed over (something that has happened or been done, especially a loss or missed opportunity).
“she immediately regretted her words”
synonyms: be sorry about, feel contrite about, feel remorse about/for, be remorseful about, rue, repent (of), feel repentant about, be regretful at/about More
antonyms: welcome, applaud
used in polite formulas to express apology for or sadness over something unfortunate or unpleasant.
“any inconvenience to readers is regretted”
archaic
feel sorrow for the loss or absence of (something pleasant).
“my home, when shall I cease to regret you!”
noun
noun: regret; plural noun: regrets
1.
a feeling of sadness, repentance, or disappointment over something that has happened or been done.
“she expressed her regret at Virginia’s death”
synonyms: remorse, sorrow, contrition, contriteness, repentance, penitence, guilt, compunction, remorsefulness, ruefulness
I think you get what spiderweb was trying to say. That in one case someone feels badly that they hurt another person, and in another they feel badly because they are suffering the consequences and have no regard for the other.
 
What good would it do for God to send a bad person to hell?
Egoists **choose **hell.
So is it designed as a deterrent to living people: don’t be like this guy or you’ll go to hell?
Egoists punish themselves.
On the other hand, if God was to let bad people into heaven, then that wouldn’t act as an incentive for living people to live bad lives, because they don’t know that bad people have been let into heaven.
It is impossible for egoists to co-exist in harmony with others.
What if God is more interested in justice than mercy - that is, he cares more about giving people what they deserve than giving people what is good for them?
A false dilemma! We obtain what we deserve: our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment.
What could a human, who lives in a temporal world, do that is so bad that it deserves an eternal punishment?
We can punish ourselves eternally if we isolate ourselves with our lust for power.
 
Egoists **choose **hell. Egoists punish themselves. It is impossible for egoists to co-exist in harmony with others. A false dilemma! We obtain what we deserve: our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment. We can punish ourselves eternally if we isolate ourselves with our lust for . . .
:twocents:

The Triune God is Love. The Word became man that we might enter into that same relationship He has with the Father. Jesus Christ is the living Way in which we grow into that relationship. Becoming more Christ-like, we grow in love towards God and each other. Heaven is a place of infinite joy because it surrounds the Source of all this wonder. It is a place of love. Check your ego/selfishness at the door; there is nothing in hell that those in paradise have not given away.
 
Warning: this post won’t help you with your faith. But I’m not here to convince you of my ideas (so I won’t be back to debate any answers, though I might post to thank people for good answers). What I want to do is express my line of thought and see how you would answer it.

What good would it do for God to send a bad person to hell? Does this punishment teach them not to be bad in the future? The problem is that they’re stuck in hell forever, so teaching them a lesson is useless - they’ll never get a chance to use it.

So is it designed as a deterrent to living people: don’t be like this guy or you’ll go to hell? But living people don’t know who’s gone to hell and who hasn’t. Even if God was to somehow show us a picture of what hell looks like, what would convince us that it’s not an illusion? Wouldn’t it be worse for God to actually create a hell and send people there, than to lie about there being a hell when there actually isn’t one?

On the other hand, if God was to let bad people into heaven, then that wouldn’t act as an incentive for living people to live bad lives, because they don’t know that bad people have been let into heaven. Sending bad people to hell does no good either for those people or for living people, while letting bad people into heaven does no harm.

What if God is more interested in justice than mercy - that is, he cares more about giving people what they deserve than giving people what is good for them? Even in this unlikely situation an eternal hell makes no sense (a temporary purgatory is fine though). What could a human, who lives in a temporal world, do that is so bad that it deserves an eternal punishment? How can a human do eternal damage? (Don’t say “they could lead people to hell” because then you’re assuming hell exists to prove hell exists). Say you figure out the total number of “years alive” lost when Hitler killed 6 million people, that’s still not infinite.
St Gregory says “The wicked only put an end to sinning because their life came to an end: they would have indeed wished to live forever that they might continue in sin forever, for they desire rather to sin than to live.”
 
Warning: this post won’t help you with your faith. But I’m not here to convince you of my ideas (so I won’t be back to debate any answers, though I might post to thank people for good answers). What I want to do is express my line of thought and see how you would answer it.

What good would it do for God to send a bad person to hell? Does this punishment teach them not to be bad in the future? The problem is that they’re stuck in hell forever, so teaching them a lesson is useless - they’ll never get a chance to use it.

So is it designed as a deterrent to living people: don’t be like this guy or you’ll go to hell? But living people don’t know who’s gone to hell and who hasn’t. Even if God was to somehow show us a picture of what hell looks like, what would convince us that it’s not an illusion? Wouldn’t it be worse for God to actually create a hell and send people there, than to lie about there being a hell when there actually isn’t one?

On the other hand, if God was to let bad people into heaven, then that wouldn’t act as an incentive for living people to live bad lives, because they don’t know that bad people have been let into heaven. Sending bad people to hell does no good either for those people or for living people, while letting bad people into heaven does no harm.

What if God is more interested in justice than mercy - that is, he cares more about giving people what they deserve than giving people what is good for them? Even in this unlikely situation an eternal hell makes no sense (a temporary purgatory is fine though). What could a human, who lives in a temporal world, do that is so bad that it deserves an eternal punishment? How can a human do eternal damage? (Don’t say “they could lead people to hell” because then you’re assuming hell exists to prove hell exists). Say you figure out the total number of “years alive” lost when Hitler killed 6 million people, that’s still not infinite.
Hell is simply separation from God which one chooses for oneself. So rather God is interested in mercy, justice makes no difference. It is the person who has the free will to want God or reject him.
 
Hell is simply separation from God which one chooses for oneself. So rather God is interested in mercy, justice makes no difference. It is the person who has the free will to want God or reject him.
Apparently after his death, this person in hell has no free will at all.
 
Apparently after his death, this person in hell has no free will at all.
Yes, because he is a slave to the devil in hell, because he wanted to be free from God in this life.Those who made themselves a slave to God in this life, are now free in Heaven, everything becomes inverted in the next life.
 
Yes, because he is a slave to the devil in hell, because he wanted to be free from God in this life.Those who made themselves a slave to God in this life, are now free in Heaven, everything becomes inverted in the next life.
Interesting! So God has no control over what happens in hell? The devil is in charge there?
 
:twocents:

The Triune God is Love. The Word became man that we might enter into that same relationship He has with the Father. Jesus Christ is the living Way in which we grow into that relationship. Becoming more Christ-like, we grow in love towards God and each other. Heaven is a place of infinite joy because it surrounds the Source of all this wonder. It is a place of love. Check your ego/selfishness at the door; there is nothing in hell that those in paradise have not given away.
There is an Indian proverb: “All that is not given is lost” and “You can’t take it with you!” is a popular expression in England although it doesn’t always mean you should give it to someone who needs it…
 
Interesting! So God has no control over what happens in hell? The devil is in charge there?
Just as the devil has no power in Heaven, God has no power in hell, everyone goes to the level or degree of punishment or reward in heaven and hell that they deserve.
 
Just as the devil has no power in Heaven, God has no power in hell, everyone goes to the level or degree of punishment or reward in heaven and hell that they deserve.
I strongly disagree with the underlined statement above. It is not that God “has no power”, rather he respects the free will that He gave to each individual. Just as he does not force us to love him, he does not force anyone to reject him against their own freewill. God respects the choices they made and as such, allows them to continue to reject him in hell. Rather than having no power in hell, God continues loving them by keeping them in existence and by allowing them to continue to exercise their free will in rejecting him. His power is love, and he loves them to the point of giving them what they want even though that is against his own desire for them.

If God had no power in hell, then the people and the fallen angels there would simply cease to exist because they would be cut off completely and entirely from the source of existence itself.
 
I strongly disagree with the underlined statement above. It is not that God “has no power”, rather he respects the free will that He gave to each individual. Just as he does not force us to love him, he does not force anyone to reject him against their own freewill. God respects the choices they made and as such, allows them to continue to reject him in hell. Rather than having no power in hell, God continues loving them by keeping them in existence and by allowing them to continue to exercise their free will in rejecting him. His power is love, and he loves them to the point of giving them what they want even though that is against his own desire for them.

If God had no power in hell, then the people and the fallen angels there would simply cease to exist because they would be cut off completely and entirely from the source of existence itself.
I agree with you in that God has the power to make hell disappear if he choose to, I mean this in relation to the devil having power in Heaven and Jesus having the opposite effect in hell.
 
I agree with you in that God has the power to make hell disappear if he choose to, I mean this in relation to the devil having power in Heaven and Jesus having the opposite effect in hell.
We agree on our understanding of it, at least I think so, however what is coming across in what you are writing (at least to me) is that essentially there is the ruler of heaven (God), and the ruler of hell (devil), and that these two powers are equal. God has no power over hell, and the devil has no power over heaven, thus they are opposed to each other but equal in power in their respective realm.

This of course “limits” Gods limitless power, and gives power to satan which he doesn’t have. A sort of dualism.

I don’t believe this is what you are saying, but that is how it is coming across at least to me.
 
Sorry for posting again when I said I wouldn’t, but you reminded me of part of my reasoning that I forgot to mention above. (And thanks for all the replies so far).

Let’s say that hell is a place that people choose to go to rather than a place they are sent to as a punishment. (I can’t think why God would allow such a choice, though).
Isn’t it quite possible that allowing such a choice is an intrinsic part of creating free beings?
And I mean “choose” in the sense that they are asked point blank do you wanna go to heaven or hell, not choice in the sense “you chose to commit the crime therefore you chose to go to jail” (I would consider that sense to be a punishment). There are three possibilities:
I think this is a false dichotomy. The basic problem with your entire argument, and with the way most people think about hell (whether they believe in it or not), is that you are treating hell as if it were a punishment extrinsic to the moral state of the person. But in the orthodox Christian understanding of hell, that isn’t the case. Hell is the inevitable result of a person who has made certain choices coming into contact with the reality of God upon death. The choices were free, but one’s free choices may so change and ruin one’s capacity to know and love the good that one experiences God’s reality only as torment.

Edwin
 
Because we are “temporal” creatures it is very hard for us to comprehend what “eternity” actually means.

Time is but 1 of the dimensions that make up our Universe.
We can, while living within the time dimension change our minds, as a result of which future events are set in motion.

However once the time dimension is done away with, we would live in the eternal NOW. There is no past or future.
In this new reality we are not able to make any changes, our minds are set forever.
Just like the Angels once they chose either GOD or against GOD, since they also live outside the temporal bounds cannot change their minds either.
If an Angel can’t change his mind what make you think a mere human could.

Now Hell simply means, separated from GOD, that’s what they chose.

Is this your own speculation or does it have some basis in Catholic teaching? You are making many assertions here such as angels being unable to change their minds. If that is so, how do they have free will?
 
We agree on our understanding of it, at least I think so, however what is coming across in what you are writing (at least to me) is that essentially there is the ruler of heaven (God), and the ruler of hell (devil), and that these two powers are equal. God has no power over hell, and the devil has no power over heaven, thus they are opposed to each other but equal in power in their respective realm.

This of course “limits” Gods limitless power, and gives power to satan which he doesn’t have. A sort of dualism.

I don’t believe this is what you are saying, but that is how it is coming across at least to me.
I mean this only in relation of demonic power in Heaven and Holy power in Hell, but yes God is almighty and has absolute power over the devil and is his ruler.
 
Is this your own speculation or does it have some basis in Catholic teaching? You are making many assertions here such as angels being unable to change their minds. If that is so, how do they have free will?
The angels do have free will, it just doesn’t operate in a way we understand. We see free will as a successive series of choices within the bounds of our temporal reality. I can chose for God or I can chose against him. I can repeat this process over and over again until the time I die.

Angels, on the other hand, had one choice. They were completely free in that choice, but once the choice was made it could never be revoked. This is not because God locks their willing in place and removes their free will; rather, it’s because of their nature as angels. God created them full of His knowledge, this means that they had a complete understanding of the consequences of their choice when they made it. They saw every last aspect of what that choice would mean. We, by comparison, barely have any idea of the effects our choices will have.

The result of the angels’ complete knowledge is that their choice is perfect. This doesn’t mean that they all chose well, it just means that they chose with a full understanding of what that choice would mean. As a result, it is impossible for some new piece of information to be discovered or new event to occur that would influence that choice. If nothing can happen that would influence that choice, then there’s nothing that would bring about a change in the decision. As such, the angel’s decision is locked, as is our at the end of our life.

With us, it’s a bit different though. We do not have perfect knowledge, so we can sway back and forth between choosing for God and choosing against him. All of these choices have an affect on our soul, shaping it and molding it one way or the other. When we die, we see God in his entirety and are confronted with the reality of our lives and choices. If we’ve shaped our souls towards God and are open to his forgiveness then we are frightened by this reality, but we know that Christ will advocate for us and intercede on our behalf, and he will help us to accept God’s limitless mercy. If we’ve lived our lives without taking advantage of God’s mercy, or if we die in a state of mortal sin having chosen to cut ourselves off from God through our actions, then we will be unable to accept that mercy, and will cast ourselves into Hell because we cannot stand to be in God’s presence knowing the full brunt of our sinfulness and the pain it has caused Him. If we are unrepentant sinners, then not only will we not accept God’s mercy, but we will reject his authority outright, and demand to be separated from him so that we will not have to be subject to his authority.

These three potentials are not dogma or anything, but they’re a common way of expressing the potential outcomes of our particular judgment which I find to be very helpful.

As for your question about Catholic Teaching about what Hell is, I don’t have the specific paragraph, but the catechism states pretty clearly that the chief pain of Hell is the absolute separation from God the souls experience. Keep in mind, this isn’t like being apart from a loved one here on Earth. God IS Love and Goodness, he is the source of everything we know of these realities. When we cut ourselves off from him we are separating ourselves from any experience of these things. To be separated from God is to never know happiness, never know goodness, never know peace, love, or rest. It is to be empty, devoid of meaning or purpose. It is total separation from even the faintest glimmer of light and hope. It is eternal and absolute despair, one of the greatest tortures of which I’m sure is the knowledge that it will never end. Simply saying that we are cut off from God doesn’t do the reality of Hell justice.
 
Isn’t it quite possible that allowing such a choice is an intrinsic part of creating free beings?

I think this is a false dichotomy. The basic problem with your entire argument, and with the way most people think about hell (whether they believe in it or not), is that you are treating hell as if it were a punishment extrinsic to the moral state of the person. But in the orthodox Christian understanding of hell, that isn’t the case. Hell is the inevitable result of a person who has made certain choices coming into contact with the reality of God upon death. The choices were free, but one’s free choices may so change and ruin one’s capacity to know and love the good that one experiences God’s reality only as torment.

Edwin
To deny that we are free to choose anything is an excellent example of self-contradiction. The denial itself is a choice… 🙂
 
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