An EV comments on the ongoing struggle between Catholics and LDS.

[Gabriel_of_12]

Ohh how I wish you could show me where the bible articulates your doctrine of the Trinity, of a triune God who is three co-equal Persons of One Nature.

The bible does reveal the blessed Trinity, but you have to begin in creation from Genesis all through biblical history to Revelations and it is easy to find how God reveals himself in 3persons Father, Son and Holy Ghost as One God.

You can’t do so because your trinity doctrine was fabricated/revealed close to 325 AD with the release of the Nicean Creed. And why do scholars claim you borrowed it from Greek philosophy?

The blessed Trinity was borrowed from Greek philosophy? Wow, Todd, you have to stop following every wind of doctrine that blows your way. Did you really fall for this claim?

Here’s one of your scriptures you were looking for; ponder this mystery

Genesis 1:26
4 Then God said: "Let** us make man in our image, after our **likeness.

 

[Javl]

From a Catholic perspective, there are two ways of deviating from Christianity:

1. 
   *]by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is **the way of infidelity **common to Pagans and Jews
   *]by restricting belief to certain points of Christ’s doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics.

1. 
   You’re correct there, but Mormonism goes beyond the pale by forming its own set of beliefs and calling it Christian.
   
   PAX DOMINI
   
   Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Mormonism however has strayed so far that they are not considered to be separated brethren. They are not of the same vine, they are something “other”.

That’s how I read the response for the question as to why we don’t recognize LDS baptisms as valid (ie, Christian).

Adding to that, I think it is a product of American Protestantism. More specifically, sola scriptura run amok.

Your assessment is quite right. They are something “other” especially when their beliefs are basically different from Christianity.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Javl,
OF COURSE the NT articulates the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
HOWEVER, it does not articulate a triune God who is three co-equal Persons of One Nature. (spirit Chimera)

I’ll eat my words if you can provide a CLEAR New Testiment reference.

If you have read the Bible, ( Genesis 1:26 ) where God says “Let US make man…” you would not be asking for proof. The word “trinity” does not have to be used for a description since the Trinity is so obvious throughout the Bible.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Well, since you claim he’s a sinful man, I guess that’s up to you to find the reference.
I’ve never said such a thing.

Then I guess you’ve never heard of or read Brigham Young’s discourse about God? Although the LDS, today, say his writings are not “scripture”, the LDS of his day certainly accepted it as “scripture”. ( I understand many still do today )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[SirThomasMore]

The blessed Trinity was borrowed from Greek philosophy? Wow, Todd, you have to stop following every wind of doctrine that blows your way. Did you really fall for this claim?

Here’s one of your scriptures you were looking for; ponder this mystery

Genesis 1:26
4 Then God said: "Let** us make man in our image, after our **likeness.

note it says “our IMAGE”, not “our images”

 

[zerinus]

You have no argument from me about your view, because if you hold to your “opinion” then you admit the LDS trinity doctrine is “Heretical” if you are of the opinion that is takes it foundation from scripture and Apostolic Traditional teachings.

If the LDS position does not try and take a historical biblical interpretation of Trinity, then it does not fall into Heresy, but comes from another source outside biblical historical Apostolic Tradition and revelation from Jesus Christ himself.

In either case the LDS trinity position has no foundational teachings of Jesus and the apostles from scripture and Sacred Tradition taught and held by the Early Church Fathers, who later defended Jesus revelation of the blessed Trinity against all heretics and heresy’s and placed this apostolic teaching as dogma and never changing/ binding on all Christians since the early centuries.

LDS comes along 1900 years later and introduces and new revelation of the trinity? that has no roots to Apostolic times nor her teachings.

Peace be with you

The Mormon position is the biblical one. We believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity doctrine that you believe in, or I should say the Trinitarianism of traditional Christianity, is an apostate teaching originating after the early Christian Church had apostatized, and the doctrines were corrupted. It is not the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[dianaiad]

It is very telling that Diana did not know of that quote.

I BELIEVE that I required a quote from any church leader that stated that Mormons did not believe in the CHRISTIAN Jesus.

The last time I looked, the definition of “Traditional” does not include “Christian,” and the definition of “Christian” does not include 'traditional."

Of course we don’t believe that Jesus is one third of the Trinitarian One God as it has been described. We don’t believe He is one mask of Modalism, either.

That’s not the same thing as saying we don’t believe in the “Christian Jesus.”

Kindly provide the quote I asked for, and that the claim insists exists, that any of our leaders anywhere have said that we don’t believe in the “Christian Jesus.”

 

[dianaiad]

Diana:

Sorry to say, but in my discussions with an LSD member in another thread, he admitted that there was a difference between the Mormon Trinity and Christian Trinity. This difference not only involves different belief, but also different make up.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

P.S. Is it possible not all Mormons hold to the same belief?

How is any of that an ‘admission’ that we 'believe in a different Christ than Christians do?"

…and I’ll bet you anything your conversation did not involve any Mormon, anywhere, using the words “a difference between the Mormon Trinity and Christian Trinity.”

 

[dianaiad]

When I was LDS, we were taught that LDS doctrine, unlike Christian doctrine, was not derived from an interpretation of scripture, but was the result of direct revelation to the prophet Joseph Smith and his successors. Has Mormonism changed that much in 24 years? Is Mormonism now merely the result of fallible men pouring over the scriptures and giving their personal interpretations thereof?

Paul, you were NEVER “taught that LDS doctrine, unlike Christian doctrine…” ANYTHING AT ALL.

No Mormon you have ever met, at any time, has ever told you that his or her doctrine is not Christian.

 

[dianaiad]

Then I guess you’ve never heard of or read Brigham Young’s discourse about God? Although the LDS, today, say his writings are not “scripture”, the LDS of his day certainly accepted it as “scripture”. ( I understand many still do today )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

The reference would be good, here. Brigham Young did a great deal of preaching about God, but the only words of his that have EVER been considered ‘scripture’ are actually…scripture. Doctrine and Covenants type scripture.

You do not get to define what we think of as scripture at any time in our history.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

note it says “our IMAGE”, not “our images”

“SirThomasMore” your nobility reveals itself here and has incensed a preponderance to this mystery of the blessed Trinity. "our = more than one person + Image = only one nature. When it was only One “God” = one who spoke this mystery into creation.

Besides this Genesis scripture revelation predates and outdates any “Greek phylosophical school” that rejects or tries to incorporate this trinitarian mystery into its thought.

Originally Posted by Todd520
Ohh how I wish you could show me where the bible articulates your doctrine of the Trinity, of a triune God who is three co-equal Persons of One Nature.

Heres a new testament scripture to ponder for our guest;

John 1;1
1 **In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God. 3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be **4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
4 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
14
**And the Word became flesh 9 and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth. **

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The Mormon position is the biblical one. We believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity doctrine that you believe in, or I should say the Trinitarianism of traditional Christianity, is an apostate teaching originating after the early Christian Church had apostatized, and the doctrines were corrupted. It is not the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Ok, zerinus educate me here;

1. give me your biblical trinitarian doctrine
   2.give me the biblical trinitarian doctrine
2. give me the apostates trinitarian doctrine

Can you reveal how the biblical trinitarian doctrine becomes apostatised, in other words you are challenged to define the biblical trinitarian doctrine from the apostatised trinitarian doctrine?

Please note in all of christianity the Trinity was always believed in since the apostles handed down this revelation. The Trinity never becomes binding on all believers (made doctrine) until the blessed Trinity or natures of God come under attack by heretics and heresy’s 400 years later after the trinity was already believed in by the Catholic church since apostolic times unchanged. Even after the Catholic Church defined the trinity as doctrine (binding on all believers) was never changed since the apostles handed down this revelation to the Catholic church, that is why the Church counciled against heretics who tried to change this apostolic teaching.

 

[Todd520]

If you have read the Bible, ( Genesis 1:26 ) where God says “Let US make man…” you would not be asking for proof. The word “trinity” does not have to be used for a description since the Trinity is so obvious throughout the Bible.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl, you are using the same quotes as the LDS does for our def of the trinity

Where is the quote or scripture that supports the Chimera aspect of the RCC Trinity, of a triune God who is three co-equal Persons of One Nature.

As said before the bible is very clear on the three persons (Father, Son & Holy Spirit)
The Chimera aspect of the trinity is not in the bible, and i understand came from Greek philosophical influences.

 

[Javl]

The Mormon position is the biblical one. We believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity doctrine that you believe in, or I should say the Trinitarianism of traditional Christianity, is an apostate teaching originating after the early Christian Church had apostatized, and the doctrines were corrupted. It is not the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Can you please show me, or prove to me, that the Trinitarian doctrine that I and the mainline, or majority, of Christians believe is an apostate teaching? When did this occur?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

I BELIEVE that I required a quote from any church leader that stated that Mormons did not believe in the CHRISTIAN Jesus.

The last time I looked, the definition of “Traditional” does not include “Christian,” and the definition of “Christian” does not include 'traditional."

Of course we don’t believe that Jesus is one third of the Trinitarian One God as it has been described. We don’t believe He is one mask of Modalism, either.

That’s not the same thing as saying we don’t believe in the “Christian Jesus.”

Kindly provide the quote I asked for, and that the claim insists exists, that any of our leaders anywhere have said that we don’t believe in the “Christian Jesus.”

What you believe in, then, is one of the many forms of Gnosis which has been proven to be a heretical and false teaching.

Jesus is NOT one third of the Trinitarian God. He is God. The Father is God, but is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God, but is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but, is not the Father or the Son. Neither do they share Godhood. Each is divine and each individual is
God.

In speaking with a member of the LDS Church on another thread, I was informed that the LDS belives in things about Jesus and the Trinity that is different from what Mainline Christians believe. I requested to know what things, and of course I never received an answer.

What we have to know about The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has been revealed to us in scripture ( the Bible ). There is nothing different about them than what has been revealed to us. If there is, once again, please let me know and show me in the Bible. Thank you.

PAX DOMINI :signof cross:

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

Ok, zerinus educate me here;

1. give me your biblical trinitarian doctrine

The biblical doctrine of the Trinity is a Trinity of three distinct and separate beings: The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; with the Son and the Holy Spirit being subordinate to the Father.

1. give me the biblical trinitarian doctrine

See Above.

1. give me the apostates trinitarian doctrine

The apostate Trinitarian doctrine is an absurdity that defies description. It is a mysterious “three in one and one in three” which doesn’t make sense to anybody. It talks about “three persons in one God” which is a ridiculous idea, and has no basis in scripture.

Can you reveal how the biblical trinitarian doctrine becomes apostatised, in other words you are challenged to define the biblical trinitarian doctrine from the apostatised trinitarian doctrine?

See above. Since the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity is clearly stated in the Bible, and the Trinitarianism of Traditional Christianity is not, we conclude that it is the apostate doctrine.

Please note in all of christianity the Trinity was always believed in since the apostles handed down this revelation.

The biblical doctrine of the Trinity was believed in, not the apostate version of it.

The Trinity never becomes binding on all believers (made doctrine) …

The biblical doctrine of the Trinity has always been binding on all believers. Everything that is taught in the word of God has always been binding on all believers.

… until the blessed Trinity or natures of God come under attack by heretics and heresy’s 400 years later after the trinity was already believed in by the Catholic church since apostolic times unchanged. Even after the Catholic Church defined the trinity as doctrine (binding on all believers) was never changed since the apostles handed down this revelation to the Catholic church, that is why the Church counciled against heretics who tried to change this apostolic teaching.

You are talking about an event that took place three centuries after the Apostasy of the early Church, which had no authority to make anything binding on anybody.

 

[zerinus]

Can you please show me, or prove to me, that the Trinitarian doctrine that I and the mainline, or majority, of Christians believe is an apostate teaching?

Yes. It is apostate because it is not the doctrine of the Trinity that is taught in the Bible. See my previous post.

When did this occur?

The Apostasy occurred when the Twelve Apostles died towards the end of the first century, and the authority was lost.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Yes. It is apostate because it is not the doctrine of the Trinity that is taught in the Bible. See my previous post.

The Apostasy occurred when the Twelve Apostles died towards the end of the first century, and the authority was lost.

Jesus said there woul,d be no apostasy.

So, was jesus wrong?

 

[dianaiad]

What you believe in, then, is one of the many forms of Gnosis which has been proven to be a heretical and false teaching.

Your opinion of my beliefs is noted…and you have every right to believe as you wish, and to think what you wish about what our beliefs are.

It is, however, IRRELEVANT. The claim was that Mormon leaders actually said that they didn’t believe in the same Jesus Christians do, or that we don’t believe in the “Christian Jesus.”

This would be tantamount to having one of them come right out and say that we weren’t Christians. I’m sorry, but it doesn’t matter what you think about this, or what the Catholics declare, or what evangelical fundamentalists print in pamphlets; WE believe we are Christians, and WE believe that we believe very much in the “Christian Jesus,” since by definition, those who believe in Jesus are Christian.

We are not Orthodox, or orthodox. We are not Trinitarian or Modalist. We are not 'traditional" or ‘evangelical fundamentalist’ or most of the other adjectives that people want to attach to the word “Christian” and make an integral part of that term…as if the word “Christian” automatically comes with that adjective attached.

Sorry…but no LDS leader has ever, nor would ever, say that we are not Christians. They HAVE said that they are not (insert some adjective here) Christians, but there is always that modifier, used as I just did.

Those who claim that our leaders SAID that we do not believe in a “Christian Jesus” are, at best, misinformed and at worst, bold faced, disingenuous liars.

I notice that nobody has been able to come up with a quote that says what was claimed.

Nobody will, either…unless it is pulled so far out of context as to be unrecognizable.

Jesus is NOT one third of the Trinitarian God. He is God. The Father is God, but is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God, but is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but, is not the Father or the Son. Neither do they share Godhood. Each is divine and each individual is
God.

In speaking with a member of the LDS Church on another thread, I was informed that the LDS believes in things about Jesus and the Trinity that is different from what Mainline Christians believe. I requested to know what things, and of course I never received an answer.

I might believe that one…there is, after all, that adjective. The adjective is rather important. We are not mainline Christians. The whole point of our existance is that we aren’t that, after all.

What we have to know about The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has been revealed to us in scripture ( the Bible ). There is nothing different about them than what has been revealed to us. If there is, once again, please let me know and show me in the Bible. Thank you.

PAX DOMINI :signof cross:

Shalom Aleichem

I hope that I’m making my point here. This isn’t about the fact that we believe different things ABOUT Jesus than mainline, or Orthodox, or Traditional Christians do. That is fact, actually. We do believe different things about Him than you do. You believe different things about Him than other Christian faiths do; it’s why there ARE so many different Christian sects, after all.

The point is, the claim was that our leaders claimed to believe in a different Jesus than Christians do.

…and believe me, no LDS leader has ever said anything even remotely like that.

Ever. For that matter, we have never claimed that you believe in a ‘different Jesus’ than WE do.