An EV comments on the ongoing struggle between Catholics and LDS.

[Javl]

Javl my boy
The bible never mentioned the word Trinity, so we can’t believe Jesus said :

I stand by my statement that the RCC is inferring too much to call the Trinity biblical scripture. Again, this does not make it wrong, just not blblical

Instead of throwing a red herring (Herbert Armstrong?) just address my statement with significant scriputre that explains God’s essence, his substance, how the threeness and the oneness of God are related.

What you’ve provided is much easier to interpret as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost share ONE PURPOSE (LDS view).

Again, I don’t object to the Council of Nicea creating doctrine for the CC

Again, Todd, you refuse to acknowledge and accept what is in scripture. I acknowledge that the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, but because of that does not make it so.
I accept and beleive every word that come out of the mouth of God. If He says it is so, then IT IS SO. If Jesus’ statements of oneness meant oneness of purpose, as you say He meant, He would have said so as He has said other times.

St. John’s testimony is yet more explicit than that of the Synoptists. He expressly asserts that the very purpose of his Gospel is to establish the Divinity of Jesus Christ (John 20:31). In the prologue he identifies Him with the Word, the only-begotten of the Father, Who from all eternity exists with God, Who is God (John 1:1-18). The immanence of the Son in the Father and of the Father in the Son is declared in Christ’s words to St. Philip: “Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?” (14:10), and in other passages no less explicit (14:7; 16:15; 17:21). The oneness of Their power and Their action is affirmed:** “Whatever he ( the Father ) does, the Son also does in like manner”** (5:19, cf. 10:38); and to the Son no less than to the Father belongs the Divine attribute of conferring life on whom He will (5:21). In 10:29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father:** “That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all . . . I and the Father are one.”** The words, “That which my Father hath given me,” can, having regard to the context, have no other meaning than the Divine Name, possessed in its fullness by the Son as by the Father.

If John presents and has proven the oneness of God, who are we to dispute it, since this revelation comes directly from God Himself.

And again I state that any Church council, and the Church itself, cannot add to or take away from any scripture. All scripture ceased with Revelation.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Thank you for proving my point so well, Javi. Of course you believe that…you would be incredibly hypocritical to make any other claim. The point is, I’m trying to make the point that those of us who are NOT Catholic obviously have a problem with that claim. Therefore it IS the question, not the answer.

Ok, Diana, then can you prove that the Catholic Church is in error for making that claim, or has no right to make that claim?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Needless to say, as a Catholic Christian, I do not believe in the authenticity of Joseph Smith’s revelations, and I do not believe in the story told in the Book of Mormon. I disbelieve it more from the point of view of history, even, than from the point of view of religion.

That having been said, I would also like to note that I have never once met a Mormon I didn’t like. Whatever they have, though not the truth of the Gospel, there is something about the LDS Church that seems to fill most Mormons with a genuine sense of moral decency, a fervent patriotism, and just plain good manners.

They’re just really nice, decent people. And as bizarre as I find their religion (and they would say the same of mine, I’m sure), I really value the Mormons, as neighbors, as friends, and as Americans. They’re fine people and exemplary citizens.

I can’t say the same of all the Catholics I’ve met, I am sorry to say, and I certainly can’t say the same of the Evangelicals I have met. If I could choose my neighbors, in fact, I would pick alot of Mormons to surround me, knowing for sure that my neighborhood would be quiet, safe, and friendly.

In fact, if the Mormons were to all convert to Catholicsm, en masse, I’d want them in charge of the Church!

Hey Pregustator, here’s another devout Catholic that Likes the Mormons ! Shalom haMeshiac.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[catholic-rcia]

Except that we can prove that our doctrines, the doctrines which defined Christianity, have not changed. It is all documented for any that truly seek truth to see for themselves. It is why Cardinal Henry Newman converted to Catholicism while seeking to prove the Church wrong. We have Sacred Scripture and the testimonies of the early Church. We have our “Golden Plates” and any who wish can view them. We know what was believed and what is believed and it hasn’t changed. The characteristics of the Church are not at all like the characteristics of a country with the effects of modernity, so the comparison is ill conceived. It was created and is protected by the Unchangeable. God Himself.

Good job! As promised by Jesus Himself and that should carry some weight right?

Last night at our Bible study, yes we do have Bibles…we got to meet a young man from Nigeria. He has been here for 8 days. He was met at the bus station by a LDS family who asked if he wanted to go out for ice cream. He had not found a place to stay so they offered him a place to stay as long as he mowed the lawn. I thought hat was kinda funny. I think there is much more to it. How about his soul.

He told them he was Catholic and they asked him if he wanted to go to church with them on Sunday as they told him it was almost the same as his Church. He told us that after church they started asking him if he knew about Joseph Smith and proceeded to tell him about him and their church. He told them I am Catholic. He said that next to the Bible was another book that they spoke to him about. We had our scripture books out. I placed two in front of him and said

“This is the Holy Bible and the other is the book of Mormon”

I said this as I moved the example book of Mormon far from the Bible as I could and said “This is the book you need to pay attention to" He looked at all of us with a slight smile on his face and said in a slow Nigerian accent

“The problem is they are connected together in this home´

We all thought that was pretty funny. Well they have been taking him out almost every night to all of their functions and dinner. Buying him clothes for church and ice cream.

He really likes this family but feels that if he asks to go to Mass he may have a problem, as things have never been better. He does not want to offend them and he needs a place to stay. To make a long story short he will tell them and come to Mass this Sunday. He has been offered places to stay.

One thing he pointed out was that in Nigeria the protestant ministers tend to have a lot of money especially the Pentecostals. He said but the Catholic laity take on a vow of poverty and mingle with the people much better. I found this to be pleasing to know. Anyway bowing out of this forum for now. I always look at the views and how many. You are all making a huge difference with those behind the curtains so to speak.

God Bless
www.utahmission.com

 

[Todd520]

He had not found a place to stay so they offered him a place to stay as long as he mowed the lawn.
Well they have been taking him out almost every night to all of their functions and dinner.
Buying him clothes for church and ice cream.

To make a long story short he will tell them and come to Mass this Sunday. He has been offered places to stay.

It’s an akward situation, but they appear to be sincere in their charity - I hope Catholics would also encourage their guests to attend mass.

I’m glad to hear he has been offered a room with a Catholic family.

 

[SteveVH]

Good job! As promised by Jesus Himself and that should carry some weight right?

Last night at our Bible study, yes we do have Bibles…we got to meet a young man from Nigeria. He has been here for 8 days. He was met at the bus station by a LDS family who asked if he wanted to go out for ice cream. He had not found a place to stay so they offered him a place to stay as long as he mowed the lawn. I thought hat was kinda funny. I think there is much more to it. How about his soul.

He told them he was Catholic and they asked him if he wanted to go to church with them on Sunday as they told him it was almost the same as his Church. He told us that after church they started asking him if he knew about Joseph Smith and proceeded to tell him about him and their church. He told them I am Catholic. He said that next to the Bible was another book that they spoke to him about. We had our scripture books out. I placed two in front of him and said

“This is the Holy Bible and the other is the book of Mormon”

I said this as I moved the example book of Mormon far from the Bible as I could and said “This is the book you need to pay attention to" He looked at all of us with a slight smile on his face and said in a slow Nigerian accent

“The problem is they are connected together in this home´

We all thought that was pretty funny. Well they have been taking him out almost every night to all of their functions and dinner. Buying him clothes for church and ice cream.

He really likes this family but feels that if he asks to go to Mass he may have a problem, as things have never been better. He does not want to offend them and he needs a place to stay. To make a long story short he will tell them and come to Mass this Sunday. He has been offered places to stay.

One thing he pointed out was that in Nigeria the protestant ministers tend to have a lot of money especially the Pentecostals. He said but the Catholic laity take on a vow of poverty and mingle with the people much better. I found this to be pleasing to know. Anyway bowing out of this forum for now. I always look at the views and how many. You are all making a huge difference with those behind the curtains so to speak.

God Bless
www.utahmission.com

What a story. I don’t think anyone has ever accused the Mormon’s of not being generous, caring people. All that I have met, with few exceptions, certainly are. Also, I can’t blame them for wanting to introduce someone to their faith.

I have had more than a few young people, from ages 9 to 18, live with my family over the years. They were kids that were having severe problems with their parents who were mostly just non-existent. This wasn’t through any state program, they just didn’t have anywhere else to go really. As far as church, we had to bring the young one’s with us just because they were too young to be left alone. As for the teenagers, I always gave them the option and invited them but didn’t think it fair for me to try to “convert” them. In their position, I think it would have been unfair.

Nearly all have told me years later that the time they spent with our family taught them what a family should be and gave them hope. It is the kind of family they want to have. We really didn’t do anything special. We just truly cared for them and it made a huge difference in their lives. My point is, ture charity, no matter where it comes from is a good thing and I applaud the Mormon family that took him in.

Anyway, thanks for the story.

 

[SteveVH]

Needless to say, as a Catholic Christian, I do not believe in the authenticity of Joseph Smith’s revelations, and I do not believe in the story told in the Book of Mormon. I disbelieve it more from the point of view of history, even, than from the point of view of religion.

That having been said, I would also like to note that I have never once met a Mormon I didn’t like. Whatever they have, though not the truth of the Gospel, there is something about the LDS Church that seems to fill most Mormons with a genuine sense of moral decency, a fervent patriotism, and just plain good manners.

They’re just really nice, decent people. And as bizarre as I find their religion (and they would say the same of mine, I’m sure), I really value the Mormons, as neighbors, as friends, and as Americans. They’re fine people and exemplary citizens.

I can’t say the same of all the Catholics I’ve met, I am sorry to say, and I certainly can’t say the same of the Evangelicals I have met. If I could choose my neighbors, in fact, I would pick alot of Mormons to surround me, knowing for sure that my neighborhood would be quiet, safe, and friendly.

In fact, if the Mormons were to all convert to Catholicsm, en masse, I’d want them in charge of the Church!

Without taking anything away from the Mormons, anytime you have a group of people numbering in excess of 1.3 billion, you are statistically going to find more rotten apples than in a group numbering in the several million range. Having said that, If this was a contest about good, clean living, I think the Mormons would kick our butts (and most others as well). But that isn’t where we have our differences. I know some wonderful athiests as well; very kind and generous.

 

[dianaiad]

Without taking anything away from the Mormons, anytime you have a group of people numbering in excess of 1.3 billion, you are statistically going to find more rotten apples than in a group numbering in the several million range. Having said that, If this was a contest about good, clean living, I think the Mormons would kick our butts (and most others as well). But that isn’t where we have our differences. I know some wonderful athiests as well; very kind and generous.

So do I…

And if we are going to examine motives, I have a really sneaky suspicion that an honestly kind, loving, honest and honorable atheist is going to be in a LOT better shape come judgment day than some true believing theist whose acts in this life are done either from fear of eternal punishment or hope of eternal reward.

Think about why, for a moment…

 

[PaulDupre]

Javl,
In no way am I suggesting the Catholic Trinity does not have origins in the bible, it just isn’t self evident like Christ’s core teachings.

Probably for each reference that supports the singular nature of the Trinity, there are 1+ that supports the ‘seperate beings’ interpretation of LDS. This can’t be won as an argument.

The influence of Greek philosophy in articulating the Trinity is a fact, and again nothing to be hesitant in accepting. It doesn’t undermine the truth of value of your Trinity.

Todd,
Please do not read the bible in a vacuum. Read the Early Church Fathers and you will see that the Catholic trinity was believed and taught from the middle of the first century. You will also see that the structure of the early church (Bishops, Priests and Deacons - no prophets or apostles) was in place from the 1st century. You will also see that auricular confession (sometimes public confession) was the norm in the early church. And much more.

 

[Javl]

I am still waiting for answers and comments to my posts, or am I and they to be ignored?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[dianaiad]

Except that we can prove that our doctrines, the doctrines which defined Christianity, have not changed. It is all documented for any that truly seek truth to see for themselves. It is why Cardinal Henry Newman converted to Catholicism while seeking to prove the Church wrong. We have Sacred Scripture and the testimonies of the early Church. We have our “Golden Plates” and any who wish can view them. We know what was believed and what is believed and it hasn’t changed. The characteristics of the Church are not at all like the characteristics of a country with the effects of modernity, so the comparison is ill conceived. It was created and is protected by the Unchangeable. God Himself.

Contest away. I understand that this is absolutely necessary in order for your faith to have any purpose, but it proves nothing as to the legitimacy of the Catholic Church. The fact remains that for fifteen centuries the term “Christianity” was defined by the doctrines of the Catholic Church, regardless of those that now claim those doctrines as false.

Nor would I expect it to. But the fact that one “claims” our doctrines have changed does not, necessarily, make it so. That is one the many things I love about my Church. We can back up our claims with real history, real documentation and real testimony from the early Church that prove our doctrines have never changed. Non-Catholics can cry all they want and claim anything they want but they can’t change the demonstrable truth.

You are quite right; the claim that Catholics went into apostasy does not, in itself, prove that it did.

My point, though, it that your confident claim that it didn’t doesn’t prove that it didn’t, either.

It is, in fact, the point in question when the discussion is about whether Catholics (or anybody else, for that matter) has the sole right to decide which believers in Christ have the right to call themselves “Christian.”

 

[LongJourney]

decide which believers in Christ have the right to call themselves “Christian.”

I refuse to debate that issue, since you and I define “Christian” differently.

 

[dianaiad]

I refuse to debate that issue, since you and I define “Christian” differently.

Well, your choice.

I think that, given that the definition I use is inclusive and doesn’t hurt anybody (or make those who honestly believe in Christ “other,”) I’ll stick with it.

It does not, after all, make any concessions to others in terms of truthfulness of doctrine or as to spiritual or priesthood authority. It simply acknowledges that very important thing we have in common.

After all, history has proven…and I do mean it ALWAYS happens…that before any group of Christians decides to persecute another group, the first thing that happens is that the target group is made ‘other,’ and is declared ‘not Christian.’

Every.

Single.

Time.

Given that, it might be a good idea to not do this.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Well, your choice.

I think that, given that the definition I use is inclusive and doesn’t hurt anybody (or make those who honestly believe in Christ “other,”) I’ll stick with it.

It does not, after all, make any concessions to others in terms of truthfulness of doctrine or as to spiritual or priesthood authority. It simply acknowledges that very important thing we have in common.

After all, history has proven…and I do mean it ALWAYS happens…that before any group of Christians decides to persecute another group, the first thing that happens is that the target group is made ‘other,’ and is declared ‘not Christian.’

Every.

Single.

Time.

Given that, it might be a good idea to not do this.

And it alsways people who who not belong yet try to force themselves that cause the real problems.

You can’t follow a different and un-Christ Christ and be Christian

 

[LongJourney]

I pass on challenges like this.

Every.
Single.
Time.



I don’t want to awaken your overactive persecution complex.

 

[PaulDupre]

“And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so.” (Gen. 1:26)

Did anyone notice that Todd’s “genesis” quote was not from the bible, but was from The Book of Moses 2:26 (from the LDS Pearl of Great Price)?

That was pretty sneaky, Todd.

Genesis 1:26 reads:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is, in fact, the point in question when the discussion is about whether Catholics (or anybody else, for that matter) has the sole right to decide which believers in Christ have the right to call themselves “Christian.”

from lds.org, an awesome display of inclusiveness:

“A form of godliness without saving power! A hollow shell shattered into many fragments! An illusive image without substance! An imitation of what God had aforetime revealed through Peter and Paul! A system of ** so-called Christianity** which worshipped a God without a power, a God who gave no revelations, unfolded no visions, worked no miracles, and had forgotten the unchangeable pattern of the past! All Christendom wallowing in the mire and filth of apostasy!” (McConkie,* DNTC, *3:111.)

 

[dianaiad]

I pass on challenges like this.

Every.
Single.
Time.



I don’t want to awaken your overactive persecution complex.

Even if you pass on the discussion it might be a very good idea to just…go look. See if I’m right or wrong about this one. Has there ever been a time when the Catholics were actively persecuting non-Catholics, or when non-Catholics were going after Catholics, when the attacking side did NOT use the ‘they aren’t Christian’ bit? Shoot, anti-Catholics still do today.

Then…remember George Santayana’s words (George was, by the way, Catholic) regarding history and what happens to those who don’t learn from it.

 

[absitinvidia]

I thought I would throw my two cents into the discussion.
First, Check this verse out:
1John 5:7 οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες εν τω ουρανω ο πατηρ ο λογος και το αγιον πνευμα και ουτοι οι τρεις εν εισιν

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one .

Pay particular attention to the last few words, particularly to εν.
It means one. The literal translation of this final statement is, “these three one are.” The Greek word, pronounced “hen,” is, according to Robinson’s Morphological Analysis Codes, singular in number. This refers specifically to them being one in number, not to bearing a singular purpose.

The three persons of the Holy Trinity are compenetrative. Where one is, there the other two are. Jesus said, “Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” Matthew 28:20 This is his promise to be with his Church in the Eucharist. Where Christ is, so also are the Father and the Holy Spirit. As evidence of that, remember that Christ said, “And behold I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.” Luke 24:49 Then in Acts 2:4, the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, filled the people. Remember also, that Christ said, in John 14:7-9, “If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him and have seen him…He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” In other words, where Jesus is, so also the Father is and the Holy Spirit.

To quote Boethius’ De Trinitate (written around AD 520): “There are many who claim as theirs the dignity of the Christian religion…The belief of this faith concerning the Unity of the Trinity is as follows: “the Father,” they say, “is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.” Therefore Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, not three Gods. The cause of this union is absence of differnce: difference cannot be avoided by those who add to or take from the Trinity, as for instance the Arians, who, by graduating the Trinity according to merit, break it up and convert it to Plurality… For whereas we say God thrice when we say Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, these three unities do not produce a plurality of number…So, then if God be predicated thrice, of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the threefold predication does not result in plural number. The risk of that, as has been said, attends only on those who distinguish them according to merit. But Catholics, allowing no difference of merit in God, and positing that form to be as it really is, nor thinking his essence to be other than it is, rightly regard the statement “the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and this Trinity is one God,” not as an enumeration of different things but as a reiteration of one and the same thing, like the statement, “blade and brand are one sword,” or, “sun, sun, and sun are one sun…” Still in saying, “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” we are not using synonymous terms…“Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,” though the same, are not identical.”

 

[SteveVH]

You are quite right; the claim that Catholics went into apostasy does not, in itself, prove that it did.

My point, though, it that your confident claim that it didn’t doesn’t prove that it didn’t, either.

It is, in fact, the point in question when the discussion is about whether Catholics (or anybody else, for that matter) has the sole right to decide which believers in Christ have the right to call themselves “Christian.”

Diana, this is not a case of “your word against mine”. You have only a claim. We have documented history to demonstrate that our doctrines and beliefs have not changed from the original Church. On more than a few occassions it seems that this is a common tact among Mormon claims. It is like me claimimg that Jesus had two heads and in defense of that statement saying “nowhere in the Bible does it say he didn’t have two heads”.

There is almost a sense, IMO, that Joseph Smith and gang thought that the original Church happened so long ago that no one really knew what was believed way back then so it was open to speculation. All you had to do was fill in the blanks and who could refute it? He was apparently unfamiliar with the writings of the ECF and the early historians, or, he chose to ignore them (they were certainly available in his time).

Blessings.

Steve