An EV comments on the ongoing struggle between Catholics and LDS.

[Javl]

I am re-reading the 10 volume set now. Of the ones I have mentioned, I have not found one of them in the first volume to discuss the doctrine. Have you read them?

Friend, at my age and after studying religoin for decades, it is certainly possible that I have forgotten things; however, religion is a fundamental building block of my life. It is a constant, daily pursuit. You ask good questions and they are worth much study and thought. What I understand is that the first CF did not discuss it; it was discussed in depth later. I would definitely agree they all taught that Jesus was divine and the Savior of the World, and the Son of God.

If nothing else comes of this discussion, it is a great opportunity for everyone to begin again to read the Ante-Nicene Fathers. They were men of God and have wonderful, inspirational stories to share with all of us.

Yes, I’ve read and re-read them and there’s always something new. I’ve also been studying for decades ( I’m 84 ) and all my studies have led me to Catholicism ( actually the Holy Spirit has brought me to it ).

As far as the written word goes, I agree that there is no record of it being discussed. But this does not mean that it wasn’t. The Trinity and it’s existence had to be known and taught in the early Church. That the Trinity existed and was fact was revealed in the scriptures ( although not the full revelation for we humans can never comprehend it ). Just Jesus’ saying that He and the Father are One and that He will send the Holy Spirit who will teach all things is an indication that the Trinity was known and taught, Also, remember, many of the new Christians were once pagans. This in itself has to guarantee that the Trinity was known and taught.

Many heresies came into play in the early Church, especially Gnosis. All these heresies revolved around the divinity of Jesus, His relationship to the Father, and the existence and purpose of the Holy Spirit. Many of them, if you examine them closely, denied the existence of the Trinity. Remember also that the Book of Acts is also called the Gospel of the Holy Spirit. In it His actions are those only which God can do are emphasized.

Therefore with all this evidence that I have come across it does not seem possible that the Trinity was known and taught only after the Council of Nicea. All the Council actually did was to emphasize and unify its belief and to formulate a common creed of belief.

God’s Blessings.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[JeanMichel]

Yes, I’ve read and re-read them and there’s always something new. I’ve also been studying for decades ( I’m 84 ) and all my studies have led me to Catholicism ( actually the Holy Spirit has brought me to it ).

As far as the written word goes, I agree that there is no record of it being discussed. But this does not mean that it wasn’t. The Trinity and it’s existence had to be known and taught in the early Church. That the Trinity existed and was fact was revealed in the scriptures ( although not the full revelation for we humans can never comprehend it ). Just Jesus’ saying that He and the Father are One and that He will send the Holy Spirit who will teach all things is an indication that the Trinity was known and taught, Also, remember, many of the new Christians were once pagans. This in itself has to guarantee that the Trinity was known and taught.

Many heresies came into play in the early Church, especially Gnosis. All these heresies revolved around the divinity of Jesus, His relationship to the Father, and the existence and purpose of the Holy Spirit. Many of them, if you examine them closely, denied the existence of the Trinity. Remember also that the Book of Acts is also called the Gospel of the Holy Spirit. In it His actions are those only which God can do are emphasized.

Therefore with all this evidence that I have come across it does not seem possible that the Trinity was known and taught only after the Council of Nicea. All the Council actually did was to emphasize and unify its belief and to formulate a common creed of belief.

God’s Blessings.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Isn’t that the beauty of reading scripture or about the lives of the Saints and their writings? Every time they are read, something new is found. They are as a mine that continually yields up jewels of wisdom and truth.

I rejoice with you that you have found the truth of Catholicism. That this decision was made out of study and guidance of God is not surprising. You have shown forth your faith in the God of Israel and have been blest! Oh, and you have studied for a decade or two longer than I have. I pray that your days are peaceful and full of joy.

I agree with you that it was taught, but I would probably say that the fruit of this doctrine had not reached maturity yet. The pieces were there, but their importance and its eventually point of emphasis came later.

I believe in the unity of believers. I believe that the unity exists even when churches dispute or argue over doctrine. I reject efforts to disqualify groups of believers of doctrines, thoughts, beliefs, etc. I also believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven and their is no other way, none, to get there except through him. We are Christians if God, for Christ’s sake, forgives our sins. He is able to do this only because of the death and resurrection of the virgin-born Jesus Christ. But we do not need to believe in any given theory of the Incarnation or the Atonement in order to be forgiven through Christ. We are not capable of knowing who God will forgive and whom he will not forgive. Because I cannot judge this, I freely accept all those who recognize Jesus crucified and resurrected as the atoning sacrifice that paid for all our sins as fellow Christians. I will stand by them, pray with them, and be grateful for their devotion to my Master and King.

It makes no sense to me to do otherwise. To say that because of additional beliefs someone is not Christian is to say that knowing that Jesus is the Christ is nothing and that there is something greater to Salvation than the Redeemer of the world.

 

[Javl]

Isn’t that the beauty of reading scripture or about the lives of the Saints and their writings? Every time they are read, something new is found. They are as a mine that continually yields up jewels of wisdom and truth.

Yes, it always seems like I haven’t seen it and skipped over it.

I rejoice with you that you have found the truth of Catholicism. That this decision was made out of study and guidance of God is not surprising. You have shown forth your faith in the God of Israel and have been blest! Oh, and you have studied for a decade or two longer than I have. I pray that your days are peaceful and full of joy.

My sincere and heartfelt thanks. I pray that you are as full of peace and joy as I am.

I agree with you that it was taught, but I would probably say that the fruit of this doctrine had not reached maturity yet. The pieces were there, but their importance and its eventually point of emphasis came later.

Yes. Possible and probable. Councils are usually convened to settle, define and/or expand upon known and accepted truths and teachings. Councils do not originate any new “truths” since all public revelation ended with Jesus.

I believe in the unity of believers. I believe that the unity exists even when churches dispute or argue over doctrine. I reject efforts to disqualify groups of believers of doctrines, thoughts, beliefs, etc. I also believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven and their is no other way, none, to get there except through him. We are Christians if God, for Christ’s sake, forgives our sins. He is able to do this only because of the death and resurrection of the virgin-born Jesus Christ. But we do not need to believe in any given theory of the Incarnation or the Atonement in order to be forgiven through Christ. We are not capable of knowing who God will forgive and whom he will not forgive. Because I cannot judge this, I freely accept all those who recognize Jesus crucified and resurrected as the atoning sacrifice that paid for all our sins as fellow Christians. I will stand by them, pray with them, and be grateful for their devotion to my Master and King.

It makes no sense to me to do otherwise. To say that because of additional beliefs someone is not Christian is to say that knowing that Jesus is the Christ is nothing and that there is something greater to Salvation than the Redeemer of the world.

We both seem to be of one mind. I totaly agree with you. God Bless you and keep you in His hands.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Hi Chestertonrules,

Bold mine. I want to make sure I am understanding you clearly. You seem to be saying that divisions outside the Catholic Church are something you expect me to reconcile. The rather egotistical assumption behind your statement is that division doesn’t exist inside the Catholic Church and that the the CC has been led into “all truth”.

I don’t imagine I would have to browse the forum long to find two Catholics who have disagreed about something doctrinal.

I really think your request is a bit laughable, asking me to explain why other non-Catholic Christians believe differently.

Explain, why all Catholics don’t agree on every single point of doctrine unanimously first. If you set a standard, I will try to meet it.

Regards,

Mudcat

The point here is not division among individuals nor is it about individuals rejecting Church teaching.

My point is that the Catholic Church has a unified teaching authority. Individuals can choose to reject this authority, of course.

However, outside of the Catholic Church there is no unified teaching authority. There is chaos and confusion with regard to matters of morality and the faith.

 

[SteveVH]

I am re-reading the 10 volume set now. Of the ones I have mentioned, I have not found one of them in the first volume to discuss the doctrine. Have you read them?

Friend, at my age and after studying religoin for decades, it is certainly possible that I have forgotten things; however, religion is a fundamental building block of my life. It is a constant, daily pursuit. You ask good questions and they are worth much study and thought. What I understand is that the first CF did not discuss it; it was discussed in depth later. I would definitely agree they all taught that Jesus was divine and the Savior of the World, and the Son of God.

If nothing else comes of this discussion, it is a great opportunity for everyone to begin again to read the Ante-Nicene Fathers. They were men of God and have wonderful, inspirational stories to share with all of us.

JeanMichel, as you know, the Church continues to grow in its understanding of the revealed truths given to it by Christ and the Apostles. In the face of heretical notions concerning those truths, the Church is forced to explain those truths in greater and greater detail. As you acknowledge, the divinity of Christ was taught from the beginning. What was also taught is that there is only one God, not many. This, in itself, implies the mystery of the Trinity and that it was a belief held from the beginning. The fact that they did not, at that time, have the benefit of centuries of theological pondering, and discuss theoligical concepts such as hypostasis has no bearing on belief in the Trinity. I believe another poster brought up the fact that the term transubstantiation was not developed or discussed in the early Church either, yet it is clear that the early Church believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[Todd520]

The point here is not division among individuals nor is it about individuals rejecting Church teaching.

My point is that the Catholic Church has a unified teaching authority. Individuals can choose to reject this authority, of course.

TRUE

However, outside of the Catholic Church there is no unified teaching authority. There is chaos and confusion with regard to matters of morality and the faith.

FALSE, as I expect this varies by the denomination, etc. Certainly LDS are unified.

 

[1holycatholic]

Certainly LDS are unified.

The LDS aren’t even unified with themselves over time.

 

[Todd520]

The LDS aren’t even unified with themselves over time.

1HC,
Would you expand on your hit and run?

I certainly may have misunderstood what was meant by unified teaching authority.

 

[1holycatholic]

1HC,
Would you expand on your hit and run?

I certainly may have misunderstood what was meant by unified teaching authority.

LDS doctrine is mutable.

Don’t feel lonely, Protestants do it too. Ask them about their views on contraception over time.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

[Certainly LDS are unified.

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

•The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the “Rocky Mountain Saint” branch of Mormonism.
•The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the “Prairie Saint” movement. Although generally referred to as “Mormons,” they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
•Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
◦Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
◦Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS’ decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
◦Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
◦Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
◦The Church of Christ “With The Elijah Message,” established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
◦Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
◦The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members◦The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – the “RLDS Church”. It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
◦United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
◦The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter’s liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical “The Restoration Advocate” six times a year.

religionfacts.com/mormonism/denominations.htm
[/quote]

 

[dianaiad]

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

•The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the “Rocky Mountain Saint” branch of Mormonism.
•The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the “Prairie Saint” movement. Although generally referred to as “Mormons,” they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
•Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
◦Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
◦Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS’ decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
◦Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
◦Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
◦The Church of Christ “With The Elijah Message,” established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
◦Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
◦The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members◦The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – the “RLDS Church”. It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
◦United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
◦The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter’s liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical “The Restoration Advocate” six times a year.

religionfacts.com/mormonism/denominations.htm

Just a note: very few, if any, of these organizations refer to themselves as “LDS.”
At least one of them (“Community of Christ”) hesitates to identify itself as Mormon any more.

the upshot is, while the CoJCoLDS is definitely Mormon, not all Mormons are LDS. Just as Roman Catholicism is definitely Catholic, not all Catholics are Roman.

 

[LongJourney]

Diana:

How about the diversity of perspectives reflected by these various Mormon publications:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/

beta.lds.org/ensign?lang=eng

sunstonemagazine.com/

fairlds.org/

firmlds.com/

Seems like there is substantial splintering going on. I could post more links, but that is enough.

Oh, by the way, I just found out that my g’g’grandfather has been dead-dunked. No problem with me, since it means nothing other than a sign of Mormon forgiveness.

 

[Esdra]

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

•The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the “Rocky Mountain Saint” branch of Mormonism.
•The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the “Prairie Saint” movement. Although generally referred to as “Mormons,” they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
•Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
◦Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
◦Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS’ decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
◦Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
◦Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
◦The Church of Christ “With The Elijah Message,” established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
◦Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
◦The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members◦The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – the “RLDS Church”. It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
◦United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
◦The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter’s liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical “The Restoration Advocate” six times a year.

religionfacts.com/mormonism/denominations.htm

Hi

you have numbered the Community of Christ and the CoJCoLDS (Utah, referred to as Mormons) twice, but forgot mentioning for example the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (a splinter from the CofC) or the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (a splinter from the LDS Church practicing polygamy.)

Esdra

EDIT: For those intersted: This is one of the most complete of “Mormon sects”:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_denominations
There are even in the meantime extinct or defunctioning denominations.

 

[Esdra]

Just a note: very few, if any, of these organizations refer to themselves as “LDS.”
At least one of them (“Community of Christ”) hesitates to identify itself as Mormon any more.

the upshot is, while the CoJCoLDS is definitely Mormon, not all Mormons are LDS. Just as Roman Catholicism is definitely Catholic, not all Catholics are Roman.

Hi

Are you sure that the Restoration Branches (starting with the CofC) are so close to the LDS Church (Utah) than let’s say the Roman Catholic Church to the Eastern Orthodox Church?

I would not say so. Most Restoration Churches are far more “Evangelical” than Mormon.
And I think development is going always more in direction of Evangelicalism, even liberal Evangelicalism, especially in the CofC (cf. Section 164 of their D&C!)

Esdra

 

[Stephen168]

Hi

Are you sure that the Restoration Branches (starting with the CofC) are so close to the LDS Church (Utah) than let’s say the Roman Catholic Church to the Eastern Orthodox Church?

I would not say so. Most Restoration Churches are far more “Evangelical” than Mormon.
And I think development is going always more in direction of Evangelicalism, even liberal Evangelicalism, especially in the CofC (cf. Section 164 of their D&C!)

Esdra

Do you know if any of the LDS movement groups accept each other’s baptism?

 

[dianaiad]

Diana:

How about the diversity of perspectives reflected by these various Mormon publications:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/

beta.lds.org/ensign?lang=eng

sunstonemagazine.com/

fairlds.org/

firmlds.com/

Seems like there is substantial splintering going on. I could post more links, but that is enough.

Oh, by the way, I just found out that my g’g’grandfather has been dead-dunked. No problem with me, since it means nothing other than a sign of Mormon forgiveness.

…that’s the g-g-grandfather that was in the mob that murdered JS? You’re right; it means nothing except our willingness to forgive–and give second chances (or in most cases, real first ones) to pretty much everybody.

After all, someone did the work for Adolf Hitler, too.

 

[dianaiad]

Hi

Are you sure that the Restoration Branches (starting with the CofC) are so close to the LDS Church (Utah) than let’s say the Roman Catholic Church to the Eastern Orthodox Church?

I would not say so. Most Restoration Churches are far more “Evangelical” than Mormon.
And I think development is going always more in direction of Evangelicalism, even liberal Evangelicalism, especially in the CofC (cf. Section 164 of their D&C!)

Esdra

I think that’s what I said, Esdra.

 

[Pahoran]

Hi

Are you sure that the Restoration Branches (starting with the CofC) are so close to the LDS Church (Utah) than let’s say the Roman Catholic Church to the Eastern Orthodox Church?

I would not say so. Most Restoration Churches are far more “Evangelical” than Mormon.
And I think development is going always more in direction of Evangelicalism, even liberal Evangelicalism, especially in the CofC (cf. Section 164 of their D&C!)

Esdra

Actually the so-called “Restoration branches” are groups that broke away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when it changed its name to The Community of Christ and made a fairly radical shift to the left. That church is pretty much liberal Protestant now; it may even be useful to think of it as a kind of “peace movement.”

The Restoration branches therefore represent a “conservative rebellion.” They are trying to stay true to their Midwestern splinter-Mormon roots. For example, the CofC regards the Book of Mormon as a nice bit of edifying literature; the Restorationists hold it as scripture. In that regard, they are certainly closer to us than they are to the CofC in its present incarnation. Although historical animosity towards the “Brighamites” may keep them emphasising their differences.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Pahoran]

Do you know if any of the LDS movement groups accept each other’s baptism?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has consistently held, from 1830 until now, that it alone administers valid baptisms. I have heard that most or perhaps all of the various splinter movements accepted our baptisms up until a certain point in time, and then started administering their own. I rather suspect that the CofC has probably gone to a laissez-faire approach to the question.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Pacos_Pete]

Unless you are Latter Day Saints or Catholic, you are are looking for a buffet religion that you can pick and choose what Christ expects you to do to return to God the Father, thru Jesus Christ the redeemer.

I don’t blame people for looking for the easy way to do things, at the present I am “cramming for my finals.” That is why Latter Day Saints is my religion of choice.

The LDS Church explains to me exactly what is required to obtain God’s presents. Yes it does require me to give up stuff I thought was required to enjoy life(tea, coffee, tobacco, and my dearest friends Jim Beam, Anne Green Springs, Mogan David, etc). Giving God back 10% of what he gives me and then blessing me for it.

Yes I know what Hell is, it is finding out I made the wrong choices in this life that limits my progression in the next. That is after I was explained what the requirements are. Not that I mouth or think Christ is my Redeemer, but meeting certain requirements that are being proven everyday to be just common sense.

I could go on all day about my take on religion, however the answer I am looking for to the question is; does the common phrase “OMG or Oh My God,” violate the third commandment???