An Example of Hyper Hyper Hyper Dulia?

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The following is a good reason of why Protestants find the Roman Catholic dogma of the intercession of Mary to be inherently dangerous and, in the example here, utterly blasphemous.

Now I know, I know, it will be defended according to all manner of apologetic attempts to justify this kind of theology in light of Scripture, or tradition, or magisterial decrees. But I would ask your consideration in order to better understand why we feel this must be utterly rejected. From St. Alphonsus Liguori’s The Glories of Mary:

Mary not only assists her beloved servants at death and encourages them, but she herself accompanies them to the tribunal seat of God. (p. 103)
With reason does an ancient writer call her “the only hope of sinners,” for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins. (p. 83)
He falls and is lost who has not recourse to Mary. (p. 94)
But now, if God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him. “And so,” continues the same saint, "no one can be found more fit for this office than Mary, who seizes the sword of divine justice with her own hands to prevent it from falling upon and punishing the sinner. (p. 124)
St. Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that “when we have recourse to this divine Mother, not only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name, then we should be if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour,” and the reason he gives for it is, “that to Jesus as a judge, it belongs also to punish; but mercy alone belongs to the Blessed Virgin as a patroness.” Meaning, that we more easily find salvation by having recourse to the Mother than by going to the Son. (p. 136-137)
And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when “the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary.” (p. 169)
[St. Peter Damian] addresses her in these words: “All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.”(p. 180)
“At the command of Mary all obey - even God.” St. Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence, meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands…Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only so by grace. (p. 181-182)
“Be comforted then, O you who fear,” will I say with St. Thomas of Villanova: “Breathe freely and take courage, O wretched sinners; this great Virgin, who is the Mother of your God and judge, is also the advocate of the whole human race; fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God; most wise, for she knows all the means of appeasing him; universal, for she welcomes all, and refuses to defend no one.” (p. 198)
[Prayer of St. Ephraim:] O Immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection…we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil. (p. 273)
The holy Church herself attributes to the merits of Mary’s faith the destruction of all heresies: “Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, for thou alone hast destroyed all heresies throughout the world.” (p. 566)
 
Is this your own compilation or did this come from another site?
 
Is this your own compilation or did this come from another site?
They are all directly from the book. I did forget to source the quotations, thank you for reminding me. I don’t know if the book is available online, so I will list the page numbers from the Glories of Mary next to the quotations.
 
[Prayer of St. Ephraim:] O Immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection…we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil.
The holy Church herself attributes to the merits of Mary’s faith the destruction of all heresies: “Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, for thou alone hast destroyed all heresies throughout the world.”
The Prayer of St. Ephraim is:

O Lord and Master of my life, give me not the spirit of sloth, idle curiosity/meddling, lust for power and idle talk.
But grant unto me, Thy servant, a spirit of chastity/integrity, humility, patience and love.
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see mine own faults and not to judge my brother. For blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages. Amen.

This list doesn’t seem authentic. Where are you getting these?
 
The Prayer of St. Ephraim is:

O Lord and Master of my life, give me not the spirit of sloth, idle curiosity/meddling, lust for power and idle talk.
But grant unto me, Thy servant, a spirit of chastity/integrity, humility, patience and love.
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see mine own faults and not to judge my brother. For blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages. Amen.

This list doesn’t seem authentic. Where are you getting these?
The quotations are directly from Ligouri’s book. However, this site has that prayer by St. Ephraim as well marys-touch.com/Glories/prayers.htm
 
The following is a good reason of why Protestants find the Roman Catholic dogma of the intercession of Mary to be inherently dangerous and, in the example here, utterly blasphemous.

Now I know, I know, it will be defended according to all manner of apologetic attempts to justify this kind of theology in light of Scripture, or tradition, or magisterial decrees. But I would ask your consideration in order to better understand why we feel this must be utterly rejected. From St. Alphonsus Liguori’s The Glories of Mary:

Mary not only assists her beloved servants at death and encourages them, but she herself accompanies them to the tribunal seat of God. (p. 103)
With reason does an ancient writer call her “the only hope of sinners,” for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins. (p. 83)
He falls and is lost who has not recourse to Mary. (p. 94)
But now, if God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him. “And so,” continues the same saint, "no one can be found more fit for this office than Mary, who seizes the sword of divine justice with her own hands to prevent it from falling upon and punishing the sinner. (p. 124)
St. Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that “when we have recourse to this divine Mother, not only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name, then we should be if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour,” and the reason he gives for it is, “that to Jesus as a judge, it belongs also to punish; but mercy alone belongs to the Blessed Virgin as a patroness.” Meaning, that we more easily find salvation by having recourse to the Mother than by going to the Son. (p. 136-137)
And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when “the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary.” (p. 169)
[St. Peter Damian] addresses her in these words: “All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.”(p. 180)
“At the command of Mary all obey - even God.” St. Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence, meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands…Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only so by grace. (p. 181-182)
“Be comforted then, O you who fear,” will I say with St. Thomas of Villanova: “Breathe freely and take courage, O wretched sinners; this great Virgin, who is the Mother of your God and judge, is also the advocate of the whole human race; fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God; most wise, for she knows all the means of appeasing him; universal, for she welcomes all, and refuses to defend no one.” (p. 198)
[Prayer of St. Ephraim:] O Immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection…we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil. (p. 273)
The holy Church herself attributes to the merits of Mary’s faith the destruction of all heresies: “Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, for thou alone hast destroyed all heresies throughout the world.” (p. 566)
I’m not sure which edition of “The Glories of Mary” you’re using, but these quotes don’t appear in them. Google Book has a full-text version available for download, or for searching online. I’m not seeing these quotes anywhere. books.google.com/books?id=tWcXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA633&dq=The+Glories+of+Mary&client=firefox-a

Did you find these yourself, or are you taking someone else’s word? Because this seems as authentic as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Speaking more generally, I think some Catholics definitely take it too far, and can focus on Mary at the expense of Jesus. Lots of misinformation exists, on the Internet and in popular culture, about what role Mary is supposed to play in a Catholic’s faith life, and it seems that some Catholics fall prey to this misinformation, and feed the ugliest of Catholic stereotypes.

The idea of having others pray for us to avert the Wrath of God is Biblical, though: Abraham did it, and we’re told that “the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” in the Book of James. It shouldn’t replace praying to God, though…
 
I’m not sure which edition of “The Glories of Mary” you’re using, but these quotes don’t appear in them. Google Book has a full-text version available for download, or for searching online. I’m not seeing these quotes anywhere. books.google.com/books?id=tWcXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA633&dq=The+Glories+of+Mary&client=firefox-a

Did you find these yourself, or are you taking someone else’s word? Because this seems as authentic as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Speaking more generally, I think some Catholics definitely take it too far, and can focus on Mary at the expense of Jesus. Lots of misinformation exists, on the Internet and in popular culture, about what role Mary is supposed to play in a Catholic’s faith life, and it seems that some Catholics fall prey to this misinformation, and feed the ugliest of Catholic stereotypes.

The idea of having others pray for us to avert the Wrath of God is Biblical, though: Abraham did it, and we’re told that “the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” in the Book of James. It shouldn’t replace praying to God, though…
The reason you’re not finding them is that link is a different edition of the book than what I am using. If you click on the link I provided it will give you the same edition I have and it will match up with the page numbers I quoted from.

I agree that it is probably farther than the average Catholic would take it as far as devotional life (although Liguori’s book received the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, so apparently, his bishop didn’t think it went too far). But my point is that merely having a false doctrine like the intercession of Mary and the various dogmas that surround her, opens up the door for this kind of rank heresy.
 
I am not sure what to make of the list. Yes, these are extreme if they are accurate translations and do not need context. I can see how they are misleading. I will say, however, that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is never good.
 
You have to click on each area of the index to get to the main text.
I thought I did. It would come back and say that it couldn’t find the main text. 🤷 Maybe I didn’t do something right. I’ll go to the main page and see what I can do. Thanks!

EDIT: Okay, I went back, opened the PDF and clicked on the blue links and got this response to each and every part: “The specified part_The First Chapter_III.pdf does not exist”

Peace…

MW
 
LOL. Thanks for that. I needed that. Armstrong was spot on. I see that Len never offered a rebuttal.

Peace…

MW
Again…a lot of the same sophistry and fallacious argumentation that ignores the obvious. Granted, the “Len” guy was about as intelligent as a box of bricks here.
 
Again…a lot of the same sophistry and fallacious argumentation that ignores the obvious. Granted, the “Len” guy was about as intelligent as a box of bricks here.
Here is Dave’s main page: socrates58.blogspot.com/

He is quite agreeble and willing to listen and I’m sure he’d love to hear some of your thoughts on the subject. Just post in the open forum.
 
Hail! Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, O most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy towards us; and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus. O clement! O loving! O sweet Virgin Mary!
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
 
Again…a lot of the same sophistry and fallacious argumentation that ignores the obvious. Granted, the “Len” guy was about as intelligent as a box of bricks here.
Your original post had a lot of references, and you sort of grouped them as blasphemies. Could you be more clear about where and what the precise blasphemy is? (As in, “here’s what Liguori or x saint says, and here’s why it’s blasphemy”).

And could we agree on the following things, to form some common Christian basis?
(1) That 1 Timothy 2:5’s reference to “one Mediator” is a reference to Christ’s atonement (that there is no other way to salvation), and not to intercessory prayer (as the rest of the sentence, and the surrounding context, demonstrate), and that likewise, John 14:6 doesn’t mean we can’t have others intercede for us before the Father (and we can even pray to Him ourselves!)?

(2) That Mary occupies a special role as “God-bearer,” that she was proclaimed in prophesy by Isaiah, that God the Son voluntarily subjected Himself to her and St. Joseph (Luke 2:51), and so forth?

(3) That Mary was an Ark of the New Covenant, as the one called to bear Christ?

(4) That all generations are to call Mary “Blessed” (Luke 1:48)?

(5) That as Christ was called to be the “last Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45), Mary was called to be a “last Eve,” which is why Christ refers to her by the name Adam refers to Eve by (John 2:4; cf. Genesis 2:23)?

(6) That Mary was “Kecharitomene,” or Grace-filled (Luke 1:28)?

(7) That intercessory prayer is thoroughly Biblical?

(8) That prayers can make an impact on the plan of God [not against the Will of God, but supported BY that Will] (Genesis 18:16-33; cf. Isaiah ch. 36-39)?

(9) That Jesus has specifically granted requests of Mary, even those He seemed He would not otherwise grant (John 2:1-11)?

I’m just trying to figure where the precise points of agreement and disagreement are between our views of the role of Mary and intercessory prayer, because I feel that a lot of misunderstanding plagues these sorts of dialogues.
 
I have a dumb question. Does anyone have to believe what Ligouri says or thinks? IOW, is this just his own personal spirituality and his own theological speculation?
But, even if so, is it approved or not approved?
:confused:

I dont have a real problem with the first thing on the list, but some of the others are just:eek:
 
I have a dumb question. Does anyone have to believe what Ligouri says or thinks? IOW, is this just his own personal spirituality and his own theological speculation?
But, even if so, is it approved or not approved?
:confused:

I dont have a real problem with the first thing on the list, but some of the others are just:eek:
People are allowed to believe it. Not forced. He’s making an argument that we should focus more on Mary, and the Church says “that’s an ok argument to make.” That’s my understanding.
 
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