An Example of Hyper Hyper Hyper Dulia?

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How about this below?
From the ultimate article on the IC online🙂

Ephraem of Syria (c. 306 - 373 AD)

The witness of St. Ephraem is more striking still. Despite the chaotic condition of the so-called Ephraemite literature, the essence of Ephraem’s authentic thought on Mary’s sanctity may be recaptured in a single idea: Our Lady is singularly sinless. First, he insists that the Cherubim are not her equal in holiness, the Seraphim must yield to her in loveliness, the legions of angels are inferior in purity (Hymni de beata Maria, 13, n. 5-6; ibid 14, n. 1).

Second, he links Mary and Eve in their “innocence and simplicity,” despite the fact that one was principle of salvation, the other of death (Sermones exegetici; Opera omnia syriace at latine, Vol 2:327).

Third, in what is perhaps his most suggestive Mariological insight, Ephraem addresses Our Lord as follows:

“In very truth, you and your Mother are alone perfectly beautiful in every respect; for in you, Lord, there is no stain at all, and in your Mother there is no spot. Among my children there is no one like these two beautiful ones.” (Ephraem, Carmina Nisibena, 27)

A second translation of above: “Only you [Jesus] and your Mother are more beautiful than everything. For on you, O Lord, there is no mark; neither is there any stain in your Mother.” (ibid; Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church, page 109)

A third translation of above: “You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others; For there is no blemish in you, nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (ibid; William Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, vol 1, page 313)

Some argue this way: Ephraem likens the spotlessness of Mary to the stainlessness of Jesus (first translation). In this respect they are unique in humankind; the privilege is exclusively theirs. Moreover, in the context the beauty in question is a spiritual thing; for with this loveliness the Church of Nisbis contrasts its own unsightliness. This spiritual beauty is not limited to virginity; for in the loveliness which is virginity many human beings share. The stain, therefore, is sin, and stainlessness is sinlessness; and so the text excludes from the Mother of God and from her Son all taint of sin, whatever it be – consequently, even original sin.

It might be objected that Ephraem needs a clear, acceptable concept of original sin before the passage can be cited in favor of the Immaculate Conception. But such a negative and absolute proposition like Ephraem’s excludes everything that is genuinely sin, whatever be the author’s inability to understand sin comprehensively. However, it can be argued that Ephraem did realize that our inheritance from Adam is properly sin:

“Adam sinned and earned all sorrows, and the world, following his lead, all guilt. And it took no thought of how it might be restored, but only of how its fall might be made more pleasant for it. Glory to Him that came and restored it!” (Ephraem, Hymns of the Epiphany 10:1; William Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers).

Other passsages from Ephraem on Mary’s holiness, and the Eve-Mary analogy:

“The eye becomes pure when it is united with the light of the sun, and receives strength from its vigor and clarity from its splendor; it becomes radiant with its ardor and adorned with its beauty…In Mary, as in an eye, the Light has made a dwelling and purified her spirit, refined her thoughts, sanctified her mind, and transfigured her virginity.” (Ephraem, Hymns on the Church 36:1-2; Gambero, page 110)

“Blessed are you also, Mary, whose name is great and exalted because of your Child. Indeed you were able to say how much and how and where the Great One, Who became small, dwelt in you.” (Ephraem, Hymns on the Nativity 25:14; Gambero, page 111)

“Because the serpent had struck Eve with his claw, the foot of Mary bruised him.” (Ephraem, Diatessaron 10:13; cf. ibid 2:2; also Hymns on the Church 37:5-7; Gambero, page 116-7)

This indicates that before Ephesus, Eastern Christianity was not unaware of Our Lady’s holiness, recognized it at times as an uncommon thing, and may have even caught a fleeting glimpse of a conception that rivaled Christ’s in its sheer sinlessness.
And on the Eve-Mary analogy – “Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were identical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, the other the cause of our life” (Ephraem, Op syr II, 327).

Phil P
 
How would a catholic know if they are giving to much hyperdulia to Mary? What are the signs?
 
How would a catholic know if they are giving to much hyperdulia to Mary? What are the signs?
Consisdering She is the only Person to whom we give hyperdulia, it’s impossible to give Her too much, now then isn’t it? We cannot venerate Her enough. None of us can love Her and praise her dedication, life, and service to God enough. This is just not possible. Mary should be thanked, loved, asked, and praised as often as one thinks about Her.

Pray unceasingly, yes?
 
I believe that hyperdulia is the highest praise you can give someone, so I don’t think there is any “hyper hyperdulia.” This, however, doesn’t mean it’s anywhere close to latria, worship. That’s on a whole nother plane, and the two are not easily mixed or confused.

The thing we need to realize about St. Alphonsus Liguori’s writings is that his audience was intended to be well educated Catholics-- Catholics who understand that salvation comes from Christ and nowhere else, and who also understand that he would never teach to the contrary. It is in this light that we must view his writings. There are certain points that simply cannot be stressed enough, and so St. Alphonsus Liguori takes a little liberty, trusting that his audience will understand that he would never teach degenerative heresy. He’s a canonized saint, for goodness sake! The Church does not canonize heretics. and when you are uncomfortable with some of these writings, you just need to trust that it is you who do not understand these writings; it is not this saint misunderstanding Church doctrine.

Throw these quotes at a Protestant, however, and their reaction will be understandable. (There are a few quotes from True Devotion as well that I get a little chuckle out of when I think of my Protestant friends reading.) Not trusting the Catholic Church’s teachings in the first place (except of course, in its compilation of the Bible), they are not inclined to give this Catholic saint the benefit of the doubt and certainly not inclined to respect the Church’s decision to canonize the man.

Trust in God!
Koopa
 
I like the definition—it’s accurate. Sorry, I forgot to list the source; the same thing has said by many, that particular phrasing is from James White.
No, it is not accurate. It doesn’t matter whether you like it or not, it is wrong. James White doesn’t know anything about Catholicism. As I said, read Dei Verbum and you will get an accurate definition.
 
Consisdering She is the only Person to whom we give hyperdulia, it’s impossible to give Her too much, now then isn’t it? We cannot venerate Her enough. None of us can love Her and praise her dedication, life, and service to God enough. This is just not possible. Mary should be thanked, loved, asked, and praised as often as one thinks about Her.

Pray unceasingly, yes?
I think you have just demonstrated the sign of giving too much hyerdulia - :o
 
The following is a good reason of why Protestants find the Roman Catholic dogma of the intercession of Mary to be inherently dangerous and, in the example here, utterly blasphemous.

Now I know, I know, it will be defended according to all manner of apologetic attempts to justify this kind of theology in light of Scripture, or tradition, or magisterial decrees. But I would ask your consideration in order to better understand why we feel this must be utterly rejected. From St. Alphonsus Liguori’s The Glories of Mary:

Mary not only assists her beloved servants at death and encourages them, but she herself accompanies them to the tribunal seat of God. (p. 103)
With reason does an ancient writer call her “the only hope of sinners,” for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins. (p. 83)
He falls and is lost who has not recourse to Mary. (p. 94)
But now, if God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him. “And so,” continues the same saint, "no one can be found more fit for this office than Mary, who seizes the sword of divine justice with her own hands to prevent it from falling upon and punishing the sinner. (p. 124)
St. Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that “when we have recourse to this divine Mother, not only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name, then we should be if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour,” and the reason he gives for it is, “that to Jesus as a judge, it belongs also to punish; but mercy alone belongs to the Blessed Virgin as a patroness.” Meaning, that we more easily find salvation by having recourse to the Mother than by going to the Son. (p. 136-137)
And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when “the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary.” (p. 169)
[St. Peter Damian] addresses her in these words: “All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.”(p. 180)
“At the command of Mary all obey - even God.” St. Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence, meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands…Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only so by grace. (p. 181-182)
“Be comforted then, O you who fear,” will I say with St. Thomas of Villanova: “Breathe freely and take courage, O wretched sinners; this great Virgin, who is the Mother of your God and judge, is also the advocate of the whole human race; fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God; most wise, for she knows all the means of appeasing him; universal, for she welcomes all, and refuses to defend no one.” (p. 198)
[Prayer of St. Ephraim:] O Immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection…we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil. (p. 273)
The holy Church herself attributes to the merits of Mary’s faith the destruction of all heresies: “Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, for thou alone hast destroyed all heresies throughout the world.” (p. 566)
**Alphonsus Ligouri had a habit of exaggeration. However, you can’t convince me that he didn’t have an infused supernatural love for the Blessed Mother. A little about his life: he was the oldest of seven children of a nobleman, and was educated in Law by tutors. He was a child prodigy and received his doctorate at the age of 16 but did not start practice until the age of 19. Alphonsus practiced the profession for seven or eight years, winning every case he had. However, one day, he lost a very important case due to extreme obstinance on his part and his critics accused him of deceit. This was a major blow to his ego and he never stepped foot in the courts again. It became a major time of soul-searching for him and one day, while visiting a house of incurables, he had a vision and heard Christ’s voice saying “Give yourself to me.” This caused him to pray, fast and seek out spiritual counsel. It eventually led him into a life of piety and then into the priesthood. He also was founder of the Redemptorist Order which had a long and rocky start, but under his guidance, proved a great missionary order.

Oh, and TriuneUnity, Protestants just don’t find Mary’s intercession for us blasphemous, they find the Church’s concept of the Communion of Saints (which has always been part of Catholic Church teaching since its inception) to be the same.**
 
No, it is not accurate. It doesn’t matter whether you like it or not, it is wrong. James White doesn’t know anything about Catholicism. As I said, read Dei Verbum and you will get an accurate definition.
I don’t particularly care for White theologically, jimmy…but to say he doesn’t know anything about Catholicism is just a bit silly. Not even his Catholic Answers debate rivals have claimed that.
 
No, it is not accurate. It doesn’t matter whether you like it or not, it is wrong. James White doesn’t know anything about Catholicism. As I said, read Dei Verbum and you will get an accurate definition.
I’ve read it, Jimmy.

Tell me with which of the following statements you disagree:**The Roman church claims that it has both written, and defined the canon of scripture.

The Roman church has spoken and defined what is oral tradition as well.

The Roman church claims, for itself, the right of sole determiner of what both scripture and tradition means.

Therefore, the Roman church claims an authority that is greater than both scripture, and tradition."**
 
I’ve read it, Jimmy.

Tell me with which of the following statements you disagree:**The Roman church claims that it has both written, and defined the canon of scripture.

The Roman church has spoken and defined what is oral tradition as well.

The Roman church claims, for itself, the right of sole determiner of what both scripture and tradition means.

Therefore, the Roman church claims an authority that is greater than both scripture, and tradition."**
(I know, I’m not Jimmy)

For one thing, what is it with calling it the “Roman church”? Has she ever labeled herself as such? Seems a just a bit snappy to me.

I have a problem with the final statement. The Church’s authority is never defined as “greater” than scripture or tradition, because there is no way that the Church’s authority is somehow going to usurp what has been given to us in the Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. There is a cohesive framework here that binds all these things together; it is not a power struggle.

I also a sense a bit of connotation here that implies that the “Roman church” read the Bible one day and decided what it meant. That’s not exactly true, seeing as how the Church was the one to compile the inspired books of the Bible in the first place. You like the Bible? Then you like the Church.
 
I think you have just demonstrated the sign of giving too much hyerdulia - :o
:confused: How? Seems completely accurate to me. It’s not like there’s only so much love to go around. I would never say that I don’t really love my parents with all my heart because I should love God more. Same with Mary. She can’t be loved enough. This detracts nothing from our love of God, but in fact enhances it. What makes you think God doesn’t like us complimenting His Mom?
 
:confused: How? Seems completely accurate to me. It’s not like there’s only so much love to go around. I would never say that I don’t really love my parents with all my heart because I should love God more. Same with Mary. She can’t be loved enough. This detracts nothing from our love of God, but in fact enhances it. What makes you think God doesn’t like us complimenting His Mom?
Where do the Scriptures command you to love Mary?
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where do the Scriptures command you to love Mary?

adstrinity
I thought Jesus taught love as Jesus is Love. That should be all we need.
I have never seen this. Its certainly not found in the Scriptures. My question is still not answered.
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
I have never seen this.

adstrinity
That is because you use private interpretation.
If you have the verse or passage can you post it so you can help me to interpret it correctly?
 
If you have the verse or passage can you post it so you can help me to interpret it correctly?
I can post. We can all help you to interpret it correctly if you need.

1 John 4 – Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them. We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit. Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him. In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another. No one has ever seen God. Yet, if we love one another, God remains in us, and his love is brought to perfection in us. This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us of his Spirit. Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as savior of the world. Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God. We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. In this is love brought to perfection among us, that we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 Corinthians 13 – If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Matthew 5: 42 - end – Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow. "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
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