An Example of Hyper Hyper Hyper Dulia?

[adstrinity]

Okay; and I don’t ask to be a smartaleck…but if Rome has not, then anyone on this board’s (name removed by moderator)ut into those passages would be “private interpretation.”

Yes, yes. I know. The logic and the correction were not lost on me…

 

[guanophore]

Where do the Scriptures command you to love Mary?

John 13:33-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Jesus has One Body, and all who are in Christ are members of His One Body. Mary was the very first Christian, and we are members one of another, through His grace.

Quick question, ads…the verses you posted; has Rome infallibly defined any of those passages?

Not necessary. “Rome” is not relevant.

The Catholic Church has defined the infallible Teaching upon which those passages are based. All of the Teaching was whole and entire before a word of it was written.

Okay; and I don’t ask to be a smartaleck…but if Rome has not, then anyone on this board’s (name removed by moderator)ut into those passages would be “private interpretation.”

I suppose it is possible. however, if a person’s private interpretation differed from what the Apostles had taught, then everyone on this board could equally be aware that they had missed the mark.

 

[guanophore]

I have never seen this. Its certainly not found in the Scriptures. My question is still not answered.

You have never seen that God is love?

Sometimes I wish you would just burn those Chick Tracts!

John 15:12-17

12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. … 17 This I command you, to love one another. "

1 John 4:16-21
6 So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because he first loved us. 20 If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also."

Catholics accept what Jesus taught, that one who believes will live forever. “Even if he die, yet shall he live”. That is why we make no distinction between the members of the Body that are here, and those who are with Him.

 

[guanophore]

Quick question, ads…the verses you posted; has Rome infallibly defined any of those passages?

Not necessary. “Rome” is not relevant.

The Catholic Church has defined the infallible Teaching upon which those passages are based. All of the Teaching was whole and entire before a word of it was written.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
If you have the verse or passage can you post it so you can help me to interpret it correctly?

adstrinity
I can post. We can all help you to interpret it correctly if you need.

1 John 4 – Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them. We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit. Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him. In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another. No one has ever seen God. Yet, if we love one another, God remains in us, and his love is brought to perfection in us. This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us of his Spirit. Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as savior of the world. Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God. We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. In this is love brought to perfection among us, that we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 Corinthians 13 – If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Matthew 5: 42 - end – Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow. "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

How do you go about interpreting these passages? How has the Catholic church interpreted these passages? What do they say they mean?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4174424]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where do the Scriptures command you to love Mary?

guanophore
John 13:33-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
When Jesus spoke these words what gives you the idea He was also speaking of the departed?

Jesus has One Body, and all who are in Christ are members of His One Body. Mary was the very first Christian, and we are members one of another, through His grace.

That does not mean though that you are to the departed though. Nor does it mean they are aware that you love them either since they are no longer of this realm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity
Quick question, ads…the verses you posted; has Rome infallibly defined any of those passages?
guanophore
Not necessary. “Rome” is not relevant.

It is relevant since it is claimed by Rome to be the only one to have the authority to interpret the Scriptures correctly.

guanophore
The Catholic Church has defined the infallible Teaching upon which those passages are based. All of the Teaching was whole and entire before a word of it was written

.
Where has the Catholic church infallibly defined this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity
Okay; and I don’t ask to be a smartaleck…but if Rome has not, then anyone on this board’s (name removed by moderator)ut into those passages would be “private interpretation.”

guanophore
I suppose it is possible. however, if a person’s private interpretation differed from what the Apostles had taught, then everyone on this board could equally be aware that they had missed the mark.

The problem is that there is no way for the catholic to know if they have “missed the mark” if the church has not infallibly interpreted the passage.

---

 

[guanophore]

How do you go about interpreting these passages? How has the Catholic church interpreted these passages? What do they say they mean?

They are, like all Scripture, interpreted in the light of the Apostolic teaching. This is what produced the scriptures (NT anyway) and by reading it with the same lens by which it was written, we can better understand what they meant.

That does not mean though that you are to the departed though. Nor does it mean they are aware that you love them either since they are no longer of this realm.

Indeed, this is exactly what that means. They have passed from the veil of flesh, and into their heavenly reward. they can see and hear whatever God allows them to see and hear, just as Samuel, Moses,a nd Elijah demonstrated in scripture.

They are aware because someone who is unaware cannot be a “witness” as scripture describes that saints.

It is relevant since it is claimed by Rome to be the only one to have the authority to interpret the Scriptures correctly.

No. Such a statement is an anti-Catholic bigoted statement. the Catholic Church is not “Roman”. The Catholic Church claims to be the source of right interpretation because the Catholic Church produced the NT, and it represents Catholic Doctrine. This happened centuries before a Roman Rite developed.

Where has the Catholic church infallibly defined this?

When the canon was closed, and the Council in 284. At that time, it was agreed that nothing in the NT canon contradicted the Church Teaching.

The problem is that there is no way for the catholic to know if they have “missed the mark” if the church has not infallibly interpreted the passage.

Sure there is! A Catholic misses the mark when they go against the Teachings, whether by word of mouth, or by letter. The standard is the same.

The Teaching of Jesus was whole and entire before a word of it was ever written. Writing it down did not make what He taught “go away” from those who received it. It was written in their hearts by the HS.

 

[Pax]

The following is a good reason of why Protestants find the Roman Catholic dogma of the intercession of Mary to be inherently dangerous and, in the example here, utterly blasphemous.

Now I know, I know, it will be defended according to all manner of apologetic attempts to justify this kind of theology in light of Scripture, or tradition, or magisterial decrees. But I would ask your consideration in order to better understand why we feel this must be utterly rejected. From St. Alphonsus Liguori’s The Glories of Mary:

Mary not only assists her beloved servants at death and encourages them, but she herself accompanies them to the tribunal seat of God. (p. 103)
With reason does an ancient writer call her “the only hope of sinners,” for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins. (p. 83)
He falls and is lost who has not recourse to Mary. (p. 94)
But now, if God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him. “And so,” continues the same saint, "no one can be found more fit for this office than Mary, who seizes the sword of divine justice with her own hands to prevent it from falling upon and punishing the sinner. (p. 124)
St. Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that “when we have recourse to this divine Mother, not only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name, then we should be if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour,” and the reason he gives for it is, “that to Jesus as a judge, it belongs also to punish; but mercy alone belongs to the Blessed Virgin as a patroness.” Meaning, that we more easily find salvation by having recourse to the Mother than by going to the Son. (p. 136-137)
And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when “the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary.” (p. 169)
[St. Peter Damian] addresses her in these words: “All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.”(p. 180)
“At the command of Mary all obey - even God.” St. Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence, meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands…Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only so by grace. (p. 181-182)
“Be comforted then, O you who fear,” will I say with St. Thomas of Villanova: “Breathe freely and take courage, O wretched sinners; this great Virgin, who is the Mother of your God and judge, is also the advocate of the whole human race; fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God; most wise, for she knows all the means of appeasing him; universal, for she welcomes all, and refuses to defend no one.” (p. 198)
[Prayer of St. Ephraim:] O Immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection…we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil. (p. 273)
The holy Church herself attributes to the merits of Mary’s faith the destruction of all heresies: “Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, for thou alone hast destroyed all heresies throughout the world.” (p. 566)

I think the problem for non-Catholics in appreciating Liguori rests in three things:

1. Non-Catholic culture and spirituality.
2. Liguori’s style of writing and language.
3. Non-Catholics that criticize Liguori have generally never compared his writings on Mary with his writings on Jesus.

Liguori is indeed flowery and he clearly loves Mary. Try reading what he writes about Jesus. Doing this will put his writings on Mary in perspective.

 

[Pax]

Here is a brief sample of Liguori’s devotion to Jesus in a prayer:

My crucified Love, my dear Jesus! I believe in Thee, and confess Thee to be the true Son of God and my Saviour. I adore Thee from the abyss of my own nothingness,** and I thank Thee for the death Thou didst suffer for me, that I might obtain the life of divine grace**. My beloved Redeemer,** to Thee I owe all my salvation**. Through Thee I have hitherto escaped hell; through Thee have I received the pardon of my sins. But I am so ungrateful, that, instead of loving Thee, I have repeated my offenses against Thee. I deserve to be condemned, so as not to be able to love Thee any more: but no, my Jesus, punish me in any other way, but not in this. If I have not loved Thee in times past, I love Thee now; and I desire nothing but to love Thee with all my heart. But without Thy help I can do nothing. Since Thou dost command me to love Thee, give me also the strength to fulfil this Thy sweet and loving precept. Thou hast promised to grant all that we ask of Thee: You shall ask whatever you will and it shall be done unto you. Confiding, then, in this promise, my dear Jesus, I ask, first of all, pardon of all my sins; and I repent, above all things, because I have offended Thee, O Infinite Goodness! I ask for holy perseverence in Thy grace till my death. But, above all, I ask for the gift of Thy holy love. Ah, my Jesus, my Hope, my Love, my All, inflame me with that love which Thou didst come on earth to enkindle! “Tui amoris me ignem accende.” For this end, make me always live in conformity with Thy holy will. Enlighten me, that I may understand more and more how worthy Thou art of our love, and that I may know the immense love Thou hast borne me, especially in giving Thy life for me. Grant, then, that I may love Thee with all my heart, and may love Thee always, and never cease to beg of Thee the grace to love Thee in this life; that, living always and dying in Thy love, I may come one day to love Thee with all my strength in heaven, never to leave off loving Thee for all eternity.

O Mother of beautiful love, my advocate and refuge, Mary, who art of all creatures the most beautiful, the most loving, and the most beloved of God, and whose only desire it is to see him loved! ah, by the love thou bearest to Jesus Christ,** pray for me, and obtain for me the grace to love him always, and with all my heart!** This I ask and hope for from thee. Amen.

 

[peary1]

Perry, I heard it too, and you are dead on it.

Now, the conversation has not spoken on it much, but the reason that the Marian dogmas are required for salvation has nothing to do with Mary per se. It has to do with the authority of the Church. If the Church as the authority to teach God’s revelation AND they have the power to proclain dogmas through the possession of the Keys to the Kingdom, then any dogma must be accepted. The faithful can be comforted in the fact that the Holy Spirit will not allow the Church to declair a dogma that is in opposition to the Gosple.

**The reason as to why Marian dogmas help us understand our salvation has nothing to do with Mary per se but has to do with understanding Christ. All of the Marian dogmas revolve around the revelation of CHRIST and our proper understanding and relationship to Him.

Yes, the Church HAS THE AUTHORITY to teach God’s revelation AND it has the power to proclaim dogmas through the Keys. But the Church will never put up any dogma that is not in conformity with the revelation of Christ. And you are correct - the Holy Spirit will not allow the Church to declare a dogma that is in opposition to the Gospel and God’s revelation.**

 

[RobHom]

Okay; and I don’t ask to be a smartaleck…but if Rome has not, then anyone on this board’s (name removed by moderator)ut into those passages would be “private interpretation.”

You could safely say that there is an element of personal interpretation… But I would say it would be more of an “opinion”. You have to remember that people like me…view the word “interpretation” a little differently than others…

 

[TriuneUnity]

You could safely say that there is an element of personal interpretation… But I would say it would be more of an “opinion”. You have to remember that people like me…view the word “interpretation” a little differently than others…

Probably.

For the most part…let’s face it…interpretation is not rocket science.

 

[RobHom]

Of course scripture is against my wisdom because I am showing you Double Predestination. Calvinist have wonderfully written pieces that are designed to confuse the readers into heresy. If you cut out the long over dramatic sentences back ones find heresy. The theolgy is false.

You have to believe in Christ, not double predestination.

No matter how they try to color it, paint it, represent it, display it, explain it, or juggle it…the methodology is disingenuous at best. Far too many non-Catholics are in the bad habit of “snippetizing” Scriptures… and taking them grossly out of context and trying to fit them to a specific agenda that is woefully way out of the realm of reality.

Its like that tired old saw; “Money is the root of all evil”… But the fact is…money is not evil… because they left off the most important words that define the passage… THE LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

? Double “predestination”? Is that anything like a double oxymoron, or two negatives = a positive??

 

[TriuneUnity]

No matter how they try to color it, paint it, represent it, display it, explain it, or juggle it…the methodology is disingenuous at best. Far too many non-Catholics are in the bad habit of “snippetizing” Scriptures… and taking them grossly out of context and trying to fit them to a specific agenda that is woefully way out of the realm of reality.

Its like that tired old saw; “Money is the root of all evil”… But the fact is…money is not evil… because they left off the most important words that define the passage… THE LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

? Double “predestination”? Is that anything like a double oxymoron, or two negatives = a positive??

Is snippetizing a word?

 

[RobHom]

Probably.

For the most part…let’s face it…interpretation is not rocket science.

You’re right…its not… at least not if and when one goes beyond using a snippet or two of scriptures to deduce an “interpretation”. I think you will agree that its really quite necessary to read entire chapters and even books of the Bible before one can get the gist of the issue.

 

[TriuneUnity]

You’re right…its not… at least not if and when one goes beyond using a snippet or two of scriptures to deduce an “interpretation”. I think you will agree that its really quite necessary to read entire chapters and even books of the Bible before one can get the gist of the issue.

Generally, yes. Context, original audience, literary form, rules of faith (as expressed in the ecumenical creeds); all are necessary for proper interpretation. The two big mistakes are assuming that the Bible is written in Holy Ghost Greek that requires some inner spiritual insight to decipher, and the other being that it can be read literalistically at every point (hence, dispensationalists).

 

[guanophore]

The following is a good reason of why Protestants find the Roman Catholic dogma of the intercession of Mary to be inherently dangerous and, in the example here, utterly blasphemous.

I don’t see why. This is a private devotion, and not a dogma. Furthermore, the intercession of Mary is not “Roman” at all, but existed long before the Roman Rite developed. How can asking the intercession of any saint be “dangerous”?

Scripture is clear that the fervent effectual prayers of the righteous avail much.

Our mama wears army boots!

 

[RobHom]

Is snippetizing a word?

Yeah… I made it up and and copyrighted it…you owe me a “royalty” cuz you used it…LOL

 

[TriuneUnity]

Yeah… I made it up and and copyrighted it…you owe me a “royalty” cuz you used it…LOL

I will give you liturgically colored jello.

 

[RobHom]

Generally, yes. Context, original audience, literary form, rules of faith (as expressed in the ecumenical creeds); all are necessary for proper interpretation. The two big mistakes are assuming that the Bible is written in Holy Ghost Greek that requires some inner spiritual insight to decipher, and the other being that it can be read literalistically at every point (hence, dispensationalists).

I agree with you agreeing… (Pssst…I’m starting to wonder if you really aren’t a “closet Catholic”… But then your statement carries much truth…