An honest question for Mormons

[William_M]

I do not know why Christine77 laughed even though she does not believe.

It is natural and good to love one’s family.That includes family members who are deceased.

The fact that Mario and Maria’s great-grandson loved them so that he and his wife went to the temple for them, even if not believed necessary by Catholics, is deserving of respect and, at least, not mockery. I believe decent people would agree.

Temple work for the dead is not compulsory for the dead. It just offers the dead an option which can be accepted or declined. By analogy, when the missionaries knock at your door, you can close the door, or you can invite them in to teach. It is an option made available out of love.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Not Mormon, they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ.

You’re the first LDS I’ve seen that actually came out and said this

The whole sealing thing is a mess. To start you are only together with those family members who make to the same level of heaven. Got apostates? kiss’em goodby. Read the angst over on Faces East, not a happy situation.

Then there is the whole mess of who’s sealed with who when there are 2nd marriages. Now of course men don’t have to make a choice, they can be eternally sealed to lots of women. But if a widow remarries and continues her family with her new husband she has to choose which one she’ll be with for eternity. Not to mention the first husband’s kids. Talk about taking sides!!

I really don’t see anything appealing in the LDS scenario, it it the most divisive picture of heaven I’ve seen.

 

[RAR]

I understand we’re dealing with the abstract here…

but, there are no models in the natural world that would suggest that a created being can “progress” to become a different creation.

Philosophy informs religion. Logic and reason are a part of that…

 

[MEgus]

The bible says that our goal is to become members of the universal family of God, not our own little earthly nuclear families. But then, Mormons only pay lip service to the bible, they don’t really believe it.

Paul

Paul, do you really call yourself a follower of the Bible???

Look at what you have just written.

What did you say about me?

Do you actually read the Bible? I do each and every day, and you say I don’t believe it???

What exactly did Christ teach us about the way we treat our fellow man?

I have only recently come to this web site, but I can tell you that so far I have only found one person who seem to be a true disciple of Christ here from your church. Why is that?

MEgus

 

[PaulDupre]

Another cult tactic. When Christians zealously defend biblical truth, the cultists cry foul and accuse us of meanness. This tactic is intended to silence us. It won’t work here, my friend.

 

[nebula]

Paul, do you really call yourself a follower of the Bible???

Look at what you have just written.

What did you say about me?

Do you actually read the Bible? I do each and every day, and you say I don’t believe it???

What exactly did Christ teach us about the way we treat our fellow man?

I have only recently come to this web site, but I can tell you that so far I have only found one person who seem to be a true disciple of Christ here from your church. Why is that?

MEgus

Megus, I have to admit there is some frustration on my part, as one person, on your unwillingness to follow through with one topic. Instead of dealing with the distinctions I spoke about you replied with a smattering of quotations which fit quite nicely into the distinctions (between theosis and exaltation) that I had already made.

Fact of the matter is that we can’t both be right, and either the way Paul understands God as revealed in the bible or the way you do is correct. One option implies that the other person doesn’t really ‘get it’, there is no way to get around that conclusion either way.

 

[MEgus]

Another cult tactic. When Christians zealously defend biblical truth, the cultists cry foul and accuse us of meanness. This tactic is intended to silence us. It won’t work here, my friend.

Funny, I read the Bible every day, and I don’t see the same things in there that you do.

I guess it’s because I take the words at face value instead of having to twist and turn them into something they don’t say.

MEgus

 

[nebula]

Funny, I read the Bible every day, and I don’t see the same things in there that you do.

I guess it’s because I take the words at face value instead of having to twist and turn them into something they don’t say.

MEgus

You don’t have an exegetical method, really? Of course you do. It’s better to acknowledge that from the start so that you can develop the best one possible.

 

[po18guy]

You want an on-line version of Ringling Bros, Barnum & Bailey Circus? Simply PM Z-man, Whine-me, The-Suzuki, the big bukowski, and maybe a certain Dawg and have them come over.

Once all are here, the ensuing festivities should be remarkable indeed.

We will need hosemonkey to extinguish the flames.

 

[why_me]

You want an on-line version of Ringling Bros, Barnum & Bailey Circus? Simply PM Z-man, Whine-me, The-Suzuki, the big bukowski, and maybe a certain Dawg and have them come over.

Once all are here, the ensuing festivities should be remarkable indeed.

We will need hosemonkey to extinguish the flames.

Mr. po is true to form with this one.

 

[why_me]

Funny, I read the Bible every day, and I don’t see the same things in there that you do.

I guess it’s because I take the words at face value instead of having to twist and turn them into something they don’t say.

MEgus

Megus, a common trick of my antimormon friends on this forum is to ignore good arguments and attack, attack, and attack. It is not very christian to be sure but true to form for this forum.

You presented wonderful quotations from the catholic fathers abour becoming gods but…no reaction from the antimormon peanut gallery. But please stick around. You are needed here.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Not Mormon, they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ.

I guess you missed that. And of course, they have their agency, like you, to chose for themselves.

But tell me, which is a better heaven? The one where you are no longer married to your spouse? And your children are just people who you happened to raise as you believe, or one where you and your spouse are still sealed together as husband and wife. And where your family is sealed together as a family unit?

MEgus

this is what you said " did not hear the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes. They were not baptized. They did not have the opportunity to go to the temple and be sealed . do you think living in a place makes you Cathloic,you are one funny guy or girl,and BTW you did not answer my last question,WHY can you tell me from the bible that we are to have more then one baptism. are you saying like the last Mormon that we well go to hell if we do not get a baptism from a mormon after we are dead

 

[MEgus]

MEgus,

You’re quoting bishops and saints of the Catholic church, but you’re viewing her teachings through Mormon lenses. If you wish to align yourself with the teachings of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, why do you remain LDS?

What I am doing is finding truth where ever it lies. I started first with the beginning of scripture. Then I added upon it. I have found that scripture is far more accurate in the Church of Jesus Christ than any other. And I find that many things you used to believe, you do not now.

Again, I look to God first, and then where he leads me. The Church is just a tool to help me get closer to God.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

You’re the first LDS I’ve seen that actually came out and said this

The whole sealing thing is a mess. To start you are only together with those family members who make to the same level of heaven. Got apostates? kiss’em goodby. Read the angst over on Faces East, not a happy situation.

Then there is the whole mess of who’s sealed with who when there are 2nd marriages. Now of course men don’t have to make a choice, they can be eternally sealed to lots of women. But if a widow remarries and continues her family with her new husband she has to choose which one she’ll be with for eternity. Not to mention the first husband’s kids. Talk about taking sides!!

I really don’t see anything appealing in the LDS scenario, it it the most divisive picture of heaven I’ve seen.

Nahhhh, only your interpretation of it. If you understood it as I do, you could see the difference.

 

[MEgus]

Another cult tactic. When Christians zealously defend biblical truth, the cultists cry foul and accuse us of meanness. This tactic is intended to silence us. It won’t work here, my friend.

Funny thing Paul. From what I see, if Christ himself came to this board and told you that you were in error, you would not listen to him.

You only want to defend your position, you are not looking for truth.

That was the same thing the Sadducees and Pharisees did when Christ was upon the earth. They were so adamant about defending their position that they failed to see that Jesus was the Promised Messiah to the point where they crucified him. They would not open their eyes to see or their ears to hear.

MEgus

 

[Ross09]

Funny thing Paul. From what I see, if Christ himself came to this board and told you that you were in error, you would not listen to him.

You only want to defend your position, you are not looking for truth.

That was the same thing the Sadducees and Pharisees did when Christ was upon the earth. They were so adamant about defending their position that they failed to see that Jesus was the Promised Messiah to the point where they crucified him. They would not open their eyes to see or their ears to hear.

MEgus

Well, the same could be said about you. How we see it, is you have been deceived, you are blind to the truth, you are not listening. I don’t think that makes you a bad person or a person of little faith. Catholics and Mormons simply do not agree. To expect agreement is sometimes futile, but both sides try to convince the other, often to no avail.

 

[MEgus]

Megus, I have to admit there is some frustration on my part, as one person, on your unwillingness to follow through with one topic. Instead of dealing with the distinctions I spoke about you replied with a smattering of quotations which fit quite nicely into the distinctions (between theosis and exaltation) that I had already made.

Fact of the matter is that we can’t both be right, and either the way Paul understands God as revealed in the bible or the way you do is correct. One option implies that the other person doesn’t really ‘get it’, there is no way to get around that conclusion either way.

Thank you Nebula. I appreciate that.

You are getting closer to the truth, but the actual answer is that there is a possibility that none of us are correct. For none of us truly know God. We can only use our fallible human minds to try to comprehend him, and look at the scripture he has inspired and try to come to a knowledge of him.

If one really wants to seek to find this truth, one should start as a babe, with no pre-conceived notions, at the beginning and take it from there.

I would be happy to discuss it from that perspective, but it does us no good to argue who is or who is not correct.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

this is what you said " did not hear the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes. They were not baptized. They did not have the opportunity to go to the temple and be sealed . do you think living in a place makes you Cathloic,you are one funny guy or girl,and BTW you did not answer my last question,WHY can you tell me from the bible that we are to have more then one baptism. are you saying like the last Mormon that we well go to hell if we do not get a baptism from a mormon after we are dead

Bill, we only need one baptism. One preformed by one who has authority from God to do so.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

Well, the same could be said about you. How we see it, is you have been deceived, you are blind to the truth, you are not listening. I don’t think that makes you a bad person or a person of little faith. Catholics and Mormons simply do not agree. To expect agreement is sometimes futile, but both sides try to convince the other, often to no avail.

Ross, I understand that. But you don’t help another by telling them they believe something they don’t.

And the Lord Clearly taught us how to treat others in the Bible. We teach far more by our actions than our words.

Now, back to my main point, if Christ himself came to this board and said I was wrong, I would be listening. I have changed my position many times in my life when I have found what I thought was right was not. And I am sure as I gain greater knowledge I will again change. I think that is the difference.

I am seeking to truly know God.

But what I see here, is that the position one has taken matters more than truth. What I have seen is that if Christ posted that a point you believe is in error, you would defend your point at all cost. Never being able to think that you could have possibly been in error.

Maybe I am wrong, but that is what I see.

MEgus

 

[nebula]

Thank you Nebula. I appreciate that.

You are getting closer to the truth, but the actual answer is that there is a possibility that none of us are correct. For none of us truly know God. We can only use our fallible human minds to try to comprehend him, and look at the scripture he has inspired and try to come to a knowledge of him.

If one really wants to seek to find this truth, one should start as a babe, with no pre-conceived notions, at the beginning and take it from there.

I would be happy to discuss it from that perspective, but it does us no good to argue who is or who is not correct.

MEgus

It’s true, none of us can ever have a complete picture of God. But, there are some black and white issues here- either God is qualitatively different from us or he is not, either Joseph Smith was a prophet of God commissioned to restore the true church of Christ on earth, or he was not (whatever else you want to say he was, a lunatic, a liar, sincerely deceived), either the LDS church based in SLC has the authority to speak in the name of God to the whole world, or it doesn’t.

So yes, it’s true, we are newborns trying to comprehend the infinite and we’ll never have it exactly right, but the LDS church makes plenty of strong, black and white claims, that demand a yes or no answer.