An honest question on Belief

[MichaelHowling]

It’s no curse. You are like that for a reason and it can be very useful.

The great thing with people like you is…you are generally quite smart and once you “get it…” you GET IT . And will believe it with absolute certainty and resolve because of the way you went about getting the knowledge.

Keep in mind that what you’re doing is very healthy! It’s actually the right way to go about searching. There’s something we catholics hold called “primacy of conscience”…in where God uses YOUR situation, the amount of YOUR knowledge you have in life and is able to work with you wherever you are. That “small voice” and little nudge and pull to search…keep following that brother!

God bless

 

[Della]

@Della

Thank you for your response it was very informative.

I understand you aren’t here to force me into a belief - that’s why I’m here. I browsed through some forums and people seem to be relatively sane, for the most part, so I came in the confidence that I could draw from your knowledge of the subject (surpassing any I could hope to achieve), without being lectured. So far I am very happy with the community, and am very thankful to you all for working with me, even though I don’t quite align with \ could be seen as opposing an amount of what the community stands for.

It is a small curse of me that I am a very, very firm realist - but I have exceptionally romantic tendencies. This leads to obvious problems with faith - I very much want to believe for the elegance of it. Many admirations of mine stem from exceptionally devout people. Alas, for the life of mine, I can’t force myself to believe - despite rather wanting to.

Some of our greatest saints and theologians were hard-headed realists. People like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Fulton Sheen, G. K. Chesterton–these last two not yet saints, although Fulton Sheen has been named venerable by the Church. Fulton Sheen especially would be good for you to read. He was brilliant with several degrees in philosophy as well as theology, but very easy to read and understand. He had a TV show for several years in which he explained Church teachings. I’m sure you could find them on youtube. Also Fr. Barron has a series on Catholicism that you might enjoy.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@MichaelHowling

I am certain that once I attain the information, or hit the triggers I need to believe, I will do so whole heartedly. My mind doesn’t only limit religion for this: it happens with many scientific things as well.

I have a relative understanding and knowledge of the Bible; I read it few times over the course of my studies. Think of it as learning a second language - I know how to pronounce things, and I can read off a paper in Spanish well enough to fool natives. Alas, I don’t actually know all of what I’m reading means - I know the general idea enough that I can basically understand what I read … but I don’t know enough that I can freely speak.

That is why I asked for the information to be provided without explicitly referencing the Bible; I know what is stated. I want to analyze it and break it down and down and down to get from God did this, to God did this because this - and so forth. I was just avoiding being told “I believe this because the Bible says so” or “because God \ pastor informed me so”. I accept that, I just want to know the workings of the belief system. I wish I had a more eloquent way of requesting it - I feel bad to exclude people who believe it in that way, for the sheer grounds that for myself, it doesn’t get me anywhere.

I’m hoping that makes some coherent sense. It’s like a ball I am trying to grasp that is submerged in moving water, it keeps slipping away if I grip too hard.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@Della

Thank you I’ll look into them, for sure.

 

[Della]

@MichaelHowling

I am certain that once I attain the information, or hit the triggers I need to believe, I will do so whole heartedly. My mind doesn’t only limit religion for this: it happens with many scientific things as well.

I have a relative understanding and knowledge of the Bible; I read it few times over the course of my studies. Think of it as learning a second language - I know how to pronounce things, and I can read off a paper in Spanish well enough to fool natives. Alas, I don’t actually know all of what I’m reading means - I know the general idea enough that I can basically understand what I read … but I don’t know enough that I can freely speak.

That is why I asked for the information to be provided without explicitly referencing the Bible; I know what is stated. I want to analyze it and break it down and down and down to get from God did this, to God did this because this - and so forth. I was just avoiding being told “I believe this because the Bible says so” or “because God \ pastor informed me so”. I accept that, I just want to know the workings of the belief system. I wish I had a more eloquent way of requesting it - I feel bad to exclude people who believe it in that way, for the sheer grounds that for myself, it doesn’t get me anywhere.

I’m hoping that makes some coherent sense. It’s like a ball I am trying to grasp that is submerged in moving water, it keeps slipping away if I grip too hard.

The Bible isn’t an ordinary book of information. It was written by several authors over many centuries and contains many writing styles from poetry to history. There is a major lack of understanding about the Bible because it is not taught any more. I know Catholics who don’t know that Moses lived long before the time of King David. They know no history and have little understanding of how God dealt with various people in various times and places or why. No one can read the Bible without having a basic understanding of what it is and why we have it or what it was meant for. So, you lack of understaind is, understandable.

So, I don’t recommend reading the Bible for people who haven’t learned anything about it except a few Bible stories, homilies, and celebrations of holidays. Truly, it’s not the kind of book that can be read by most people “cold” like that. You need a good Catholic Bible study. I recommend Scott Hahn’s Covenant Theology series for that. Still, as I wrote before, we are not “people of the book”, so while reading the Bible and understanding something about it is good, it’s not all there is to Catholic belief and practice. The Bible is one part of Sacred Tradition that teaches us about God. The other parts are the oral teachings/writings of the early Church and the Church Fathers and the living Magisterium (the pope along with all the bishops) who decide matters of faith and morals.

 

[ThinkingFree]

Yes, that much I know

As a (rather beneficial) consequence of my non-conformity in my years of Christian\Catholic development courses, I received many a lecture on the this and that of the Bible. I understand it is much more then the typical book - but for the sake of discussion, it is just easier to refer to it as such (with the hope that readers understand it is more than such).

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

Those are good questions, and I will answer to the best of my ability in the spirit of friendly philosophical debate. I was raised in a “mixed religion” home, or rather - homes. My father is retired minister of a Christian church (Desciples Of Christ), and my mother is Roman Catholic (although she has referred to herself as a ‘far from Rome’ Catholic since she agrees with birth control and a few other minor differences). My parents divorced when I was 7 yrs old and my mom took me to Mass and enrolled me in Catholic school, up to the 8th grade. I sometimes refer to myself as ‘almost catholic’ because I did go to catechism classes, but the day I was supposed to be confirmed, I told my mom I wouldn’t do it. She thought it was about being disloyal to my father or just defiant to her, but I explained that I couldn’t go into a church and lie about my beliefs in God. I did not believe in the infallibility of the pope, I didn’t believe a priest could absolve me of my sins, and I didn’t like praying to Mary & saints or kneeling before statues. Note to all Catholics: I know the arguments on all of these points, (much to the disappointment of the nuns and priests that taught catechism), I just disagree with them. As a young adult I learned more about other religions and decided that I really didn’t agree with any of them and they were just a tool used by people seeking power, as I also regard political parties. I do believe in God, but I do not pretend to understand it beyond my belief that God is love. I consider myself Christian, but I think the teachings of Christ are more important than agreeing with what other people think: is Jesus the son of God, was he conceived by a virgin, etc. As I discussed in another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=747338&page=10. My beliefs include the possibility of reincarnation, mostly because my little sister (at the age of 5) described her life ‘before’. She had no idea about reincarnation, but described in great detail of living in San Francisco (we lived in Austin), how she loved the layers of her dresses, the sound her shoes made on wooden sidewalks in front of the stores, but didn’t like ‘all of those laces’ going half way up her shins because it took so long to put on and take off. My mother and I were stunned when she told us this. My mom asked how she got ‘here’. She said she didn’t know - she remembered having a very high fever, and then she was here. I am certain there is something after this life. I’ve never been afraid of death, but my belief in something beyond this life was solidified after I became an oncology nurse. I have witnessed many deaths, all but one was a normal, predictable decline after fighting disease. One woman had been ‘asleep’ (some might say coma) for two days, her family had all visited and said their goodbyes. Her daughter stopped me in the hallway, saying she thought her mom was dead or almost there. I placed my stethoscope on the patients chest to listen to her heart. Her eyes opened (I thought maybe my stethoscope was cold and woke her) and she stared at a point where the wall met the ceiling in her room. She smiled and softly said, “Oh, it’s so beautiful”. A tear rolled down her cheek as she closed her eyes for the last time, and died. Some may say that experience is just a chemical reaction in the brain - one last firing neuron as the body dies, but there is no doubt in my mind that woman saw something. I don’t have a death wish, but I do look forward to discovering for myself to whatever she saw.

 

[Della]

Yes, that much I know

As a (rather beneficial) consequence of my non-conformity in my years of Christian\Catholic development courses, I received many a lecture on the this and that of the Bible. I understand it is much more then the typical book - but for the sake of discussion, it is just easier to refer to it as such (with the hope that readers understand it is more than such).

Unfortunately, to assume anything on CAF is dangerous. Having read and written many posts over the years I’ve found it’s best to not assume but to state what one knows as precisely as possible. Doing so has made it harder for me to write fiction, but for apologetics, it is necessary for others will not assume what you want them to, but will assume many things you don’t.

 

[ThinkingFree]

Hehe, as with most forums I suppose.

 

[Della]

Hehe, as with most forums I suppose.

Indeed.

 

[Pugsly]

I will open by saying that I haven’t the slightest desire to downplay or criticize your beliefs in any way - I am simply looking for (personal) answers to sate my curious appetite. I intend this not a pro or anti theism outlet in any way, shape, or form - I’m simply looking for honest, personal subjective ] answers to one question :

Why do you believe as you do?

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief. I want your answer to an open ended question. I mean to make no claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way - I simply go so far as to say I am not interested in answers of this manner.
2. Please to not impose any sort of spiritual or moral high ground for your beliefs.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?
2. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?
3. How active were your guardians in their faith?
4. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

As for background : I am a very passive atheist. I make no claims to deny the existence of anyone’s god - just as you can’t prove your belief, I can’t entirely account for my lack of belief (I would not say my position is a belief). I am interested in the theological mindset, in that I do believe it would be pleasant to be a believer - alas, for the life of me, I can’t find a reason to. Morally, intellectually, objectively, it seems unnecessary (perhaps redundant) - so I am instead seeking subjective answers.

So, in summary:
Why do you believe what you believe?
I wish for no arguments or proof for the validity of your belief - I am interested in
the day to day events and insights that subjectively validate your belief.

---

I am unsure if this falls neatly within the accepted threading format. I would simply like to say that I am one away from God looking for the potential to get closer, and am looking for a hand in that respect. I do feel like the intent of this request is valid, even if I may not be so eloquently or knowledgeable on the subject to correctly state my intentions.

---

P.S. - I am hoping that it is possible to have discussion on thought of theism & atheism, so long as it is conducted in a respectful, non-pointed manner. Is there any merit to this hope?

Welcome ThinkingFree…my real name is Damion…my very Catholic mom had 10 kids and went blind by the time I was in 1st grade…I can remember speaking with God from an early age…and God directing me (in my heart and mind) and comforting me in very painful, violent and disturbing situations from my youth.

Later, I wandered away from the Church when I managed large restuarants, made lots of money, did piles of coke and generally lived the life of Riley. Then one day I cried out to God and He let me know that He had always been with me…but my soul was now torn and dull and my heart had a pervasive numbness to it…so I cried out for a new heart and God took a seriously cold, drug and porn addicted heart and tore it out and gave me a new heart of feeling and care and warmth. Then…I joined a Benedictine Monastery for several years but dropped out…and now have 3 kids.

Do I have doubts? You bet. All the time…but (almost absolutely) not doubts as to God’s existence…but to my salvation. However, I am learning to trust God more and more on that score. Welcome again.

ps…I’m really impressed with the patient and detailed responses you’ve gotten here. May God continue to bless you.

 

[ThinkingFree]

@Pugsly

Thanks for sharing your story; inspiring indeed!

And yes, I admit, I was rather impressed too.
The responses have exceeded my expectations, surely.

 

[JillianRose]

Reasons I believe in God is:

1. The human “Species” is too perfect to be evolved “into” the level of intelligence, and emotional intelligence.
2. I have carried 2 Children in my womb
3. I have been told I had cancer and thru prayer, God proved the doctors wrong. I never had cancer to begin with
4. LOVE
5. I have have a supernatural experience and know if that exist, God does.

Jill

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

@Della
So, I’ve had a rather terrible background with the faith. I understand that this is not representative of all the faith - and is why I am trying to turn the other cheek on it. My problem is that I can’t believe what I’m told because someone tells me to (even if I trust the authority figure - I was close with my pastor). It has to go deeper for me, and the major problems I’ve had with faith in general stem because when I try to assess it on a deeper level, or in any way that isn’t mainstream, I get booted to square one again.
.

My parents taught me the importance of critical thinking, but didn’t seem to understand why I balked at organized religion. In studying science, if one discovers a ‘truth’, it only holds up if it is always true. Do you think having conflicting and/or illogical theologies shoved at you (with a take it or be damned attitude) made you - or resulted in further distance in finding your own sense of faith?

Thank you for starting this thread, the discussion has been very interesting.

 

[RoseMary131]

I was raised in a somewhat broken household, as far as religion goes. My father acknowledges a god \ higher power,…My mother was raised by (for lack of better words) a hardcore catholic father, …she took a very authoritarian standpoint - that I will believe because she told me so, until I am out of the house.

• I knew I was different from the other kids, … The older I got the more “militant” I got - some exams I purposely failed because I refused to state things I didn’t believe …whenever I pressed a little for “why”, I was disciplined. …I’ve given up my resentments, but hard feelings did come in. I was eventually confirmed against my will, …upon trying to get back into the church environment, I was consequently kicked out and told “we do not want your type here”

I can’t believe what I’m told because someone tells me to …It has to go deeper for me, and the major problems I’ve had with faith in general stem because when I try to assess it on a deeper level, or in any way that isn’t mainstream, I get booted to square one again.

I’m sorry Thinking Free that you experienced the “teachings of God or faith” from a dysfunctional view. What you describe are people “telling” you a faith… without allowing you to understand or question …and without offering you the love of faith… maybe at times, not even offering love at all.

Many people who do not receive love from those who should love them, have a hard time with God, as God is shown as a Loving Father. If a parent has not shown them love, how can they see God is love? If church members do not offer love, how can they see God as love?

Now, I am not saying that your parents did not show you love. From what I read, they were not loving in the way they showed you God and the faith around their belief and your grandfather was not loving towards your mother when she was a child.

I’m sorry the parish didn’t welcome you when you tried returning to God through a church.

You don’t have to believe because someone tells you… For some people there is no question, the faith is so strong that even if they do not know the “why”, it is still believed with 100% faith. That is a gift I have… I love learning the hows and whys… but at the same time, I know that the truth of the Church is True even if I do not know how or why.

There are a lot of people like you who need to “know” with their intellect. Many of the people later begin to “know” with their heart.

I believe God will show you with your intellect if you search for it. You can find all the answers you are searching for… You might try praying once again… praying to God to lead you to find Him.

+++Dear Lord, You know the pain Thinking Free has suffered because he only wanted to know with his intellect but others rejected his questioning. You know the pains he felt when others didn’t like his clothes and didn’t want “his kind” in Your house. Heal Thinking Free of the pain he suffered. Let him know You love him. Let him know You do have all the answers and will show the answers to him. Guide him to people who will be able to answer his questions or share books with him that satisfy his hunger for knowledge and for finding You. I ask this in the name of Jesus, Our Savior. Amen. +++

 

[Zairra]

For obvious reasons, I cannot answer the questions of your OP, but, reading the thread, I’ve come to believe that I might be useful too.
You know the feeling of being in love; a wonderful feeling indeed. But, in the beginning, were there any “ropes” to get you safely from point A where you was to point B where you wanted to be? I believe not; in situations like this you close your eyes, step into the abyss and realize you can fly. Now you want to believe as earlier you wanted to love; I suggest you just do it - let yourself do it. Everything else will come afterwards.

 

[JRKH]

@JRKH \ James

I do recognize that it is a rather unfair request to impose.

I perhaps should have been more slightly in depth; I ask this because I want peoples’ personal answers, not to be spewed lines from the Bible that we’ve all heard a million times - that fall on deaf ears because at the moment, I can’t hear them in the voice they’re meant to be heard in.
→ I am simply saying that, at this phase of my belief, I can not accept the Bible - thus, references to the Bible will do nothing for me. I understand that excluding the Bible will exclude certain people’s opinions from the discussion. At this phase in the discussion, I’m just wanting to put them on hold.

Thank you for your detailed responses.

Sorry - getting back here late…Thanks FT for the clarification. This does make sense. When one is exploring as you are and with your background ( as i now understand it) I can see how this could be counterproductive.

Moving forward just a bit from what I had mentioned in my first post.
During the time I was away from the Church I looked around at some different faith traditions, mainly Eastern traditions. I can’t say that I really studied them but I did do some reading watching and listening. This was during the time when the “New Age” movement was taking hold as well.
Anyway - - I noted in the more ancient traditions the foundational principle of Love. It was not always clearly expressed, or perhaps was approached in different ways, but Love and Peace and Unity were all strong elements in systems that seemed to be, over all, the most spiritually productive.
Now - I knew that Love was a basic principle of Christianity as well, but like you, my catechesis was somewhat stunted, and the history of Christian Europe was not a stellar one.
However, since it was not my intent to find and conform to history but to find and conform to God, I went back to the source and read the Gospels. Not the rest of the Bible, but just the Gospels. I wanted to know what Jesus had said and I was amazed at what I found. That Love was woven through and through all that Jesus taught and did.
Then - having discovered this - and perhaps because of my having been raised Catholic…something very strange began to happen. While I had been quite content with much of what I had learned, I began to feel a tug back tot he Church…and I wasn’t sure why. The few times I had been to mass over the years I was moved by it, but one could chalk that up to nostalgia…but this was different.
It took a while because I had an issue that needed resolved before I could legitimately return (and I have great respect for a given communities rules) but once that was resolved and I returned…I discovered for sure what it was that was drawing me and why.

It was the Eucharist. It was Holy Communion. It was the greatest and most loving gift that God has given to us. It was Himself, body blood soul and divinity under the species of bread and wine. Taking Him into our very selves, as He instructed us to do, completed my journey. A journey without which I wonder if I would have ever truly appreciated what a great gift the Eucharist - and indeed all of the faith - truly is.

We are all, in a sense, “prodigal sons”. We all have to find our own way. You mentioned in another post about your difficult background. It’s understandable that you were frustrated and rebelled against such poor formation. I am glad that you keep an open mind to the subject and hopefully our various answers (all very personal and from different viewpoints) are helpful to you.

Peace
James

 

[Dolezal]

Why do you believe as you do?

Theistic belief seems to me justified. The modal epistemic argument, for example, seems sufficiently convincing.

As for Catholicism, Catholic teachings do not conflict with my conscience. Original sin seems to explains the human state. I am amazed by the fact that the Catholic Church’s teachings have remained coherent and consistent over time (two thousand years). This does not seem plausible if the Catholic Church is a human institute.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?

I was an atheist until age 23 when I converted to Catholicism. Since my conversion I’ve always been confident in my faith.

1. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time?

No to both questions.

1. How active were your guardians in their faith?

My parents were never religious. I’m kind of a reactionary, rebellious person, so it was probably a good thing that I wasn’t raised religiously.

1. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

I became Catholic by studying history and philosophy. The Bible never played a role in my conversion. Like a previous poster said, we are not “a people of the book”.The Bible is always interpreted in the literal sense but the interpretation is not always literalistic. There are obviously parts of the Bible that are allegorical. I favor whatever interpretation does not conflict with our faith and scientific insights. Catholics are free to accept a 4.5 billion year old earth, for example, or the standard Big Bang theory (which was originally proposed by a Jesuit priest).

As for background : I am a very passive atheist. I make no claims to deny the existence of anyone’s god - just as you can’t prove your belief, I can’t entirely account for my lack of belief (I would not say my position is a belief).

No, but atheists often have inconsistent beliefs, such as empiricism or the belief that there is for every rational explanation a scientific explanation. Have you challenged those beliefs? Some questions to ponder. How is empiricism consistent when the statement that every statement should be empirically verifiable is itself not an empirically verifiable statement? What is the scientific explanation for consciousness or the comprehensibility of the universe. How can science answer why there is something rather than nothing or give logic a rational foundation? We are required to use logic in scientific reasoning, but how can logic itself be scientifically established?

I am interested in the theological mindset, in that I do believe it would be pleasant to be a believer - alas, for the life of me, I can’t find a reason to.

Theism provides an ultimate foundation of reality where all possible explanations come to rest. For me that is sufficient reason.

Morally, intellectually, objectively, it seems unnecessary (perhaps redundant) - so I am instead seeking subjective answers.

In what way do moral values exist in reality? There are only physical processes of nature, right?

 

[Paddy_Walker]

I will open by saying that I haven’t the slightest desire to downplay or criticize your beliefs in any way - I am simply looking for (personal) answers to sate my curious appetite. I intend this not a pro or anti theism outlet in any way, shape, or form - I’m simply looking for honest, personal subjective ] answers to one question :

Why do you believe as you do?

When answering these questions, I would ask you adhere to these points :

1. Please do not reference the Bible as proof or authority for your belief. I want your answer to an open ended question. I mean to make no claim to the authenticity of the Bible in any way - I simply go so far as to say I am not interested in answers of this manner.
2. Please to not impose any sort of spiritual or moral high ground for your beliefs.

I am also interested in the following bits of information :

1. At, roughly, what age did you gain confidence in your belief?
2. Is your belief absolute? Does it sway from time to time? Howso?
3. How active were your guardians in their faith?
4. The only aspect of Biblical matter I am interested in : Do you find more merit in Biblical literalism or symbolism? Why?

As for background : I am a very passive atheist. I make no claims to deny the existence of anyone’s god - just as you can’t prove your belief, I can’t entirely account for my lack of belief (I would not say my position is a belief). I am interested in the theological mindset, in that I do believe it would be pleasant to be a believer - alas, for the life of me, I can’t find a reason to. Morally, intellectually, objectively, it seems unnecessary (perhaps redundant) - so I am instead seeking subjective answers.

So, in summary:
Why do you believe what you believe?
I wish for no arguments or proof for the validity of your belief - I am interested in
the day to day events and insights that subjectively validate your belief.

---

I am unsure if this falls neatly within the accepted threading format. I would simply like to say that I am one away from God looking for the potential to get closer, and am looking for a hand in that respect. I do feel like the intent of this request is valid, even if I may not be so eloquently or knowledgeable on the subject to correctly state my intentions.

---

P.S. - I am hoping that it is possible to have discussion on thought of theism & atheism, so long as it is conducted in a respectful, non-pointed manner. Is there any merit to this hope?

hi, i’m paul. i believe because one day i was going to damascus on my horse when suddenly… …but you probably heard that story.

 

[tonyrey]

I take my moral standings rather explicitly from the “Golden Rule” and variations of it. I AM aware that this is rooted from religion (at least, coined by it). I do agree with several ideas of several religions, but my actions came before an understanding of these religions or there tenets. I concede that (living in America) I was influenced by a predominately Christian culture, so there are grounds of credit to the faith for that.

In the context of the bloodstained history of the human race the Golden Rule was an extraordinary discovery. Even Richard Dawkins recognises that the Sermon on the Mount was “way ahead of its time”…

I suppose, very crudely, I am getting at : The cookie crumbled, but I believe it is possible for it to have crumbled differently and still leave a similar mess. Granted, I have no grounds for that, and could be wrong.

A negative consequence implies a positive situation!

As for us being here by chance : If the dice were to be rolled again, I feel it is easy that another species could have came out on “top” - as humans have. With the luck of the role, I feel that I should make the best of the consciousness I’ve come to have - divine or otherwise.
→ I feel that many religious people, and humanists, have similar start and endpoints … the middle ground is where things get fuzzy.

To attribute the immense value and beauty of existence to Chance seems to me a hopelessly inadequate explanation.

I believe that this life is the sum of our existence, for no reason other than my own, really. Many faiths believe many different things happen after death : I’m just standing on what I see as a neutral point until one of them offers me a rope I can walk across. I can’t very well fly from point A to point B, so I’m waiting for other methods to become available. I maintain this point because I simply can’t just snap and accept heaven or hell awaits after death (or the predictions and standpoints of any religion).

No one expects you to take a leap into the dark! Yet if you believe in the reality of justice it is unreasonable to regard it as a human invention. The monstrous injustice of life in this world demands rectification and, as far as I can see, there is only one way that can be achieved…

I’m trying to say this in a non-offensive way. This is the best I can come up with - please know I don’t mean to jab or shun the faith of anyone involved. I see the world & existence as “black” and successive worlds or spiritual (for lack of better words) matters as “white” - I can’t just step from one into the other, I am seeking for a grey zone to travel upon.

Your sincerity is your salvation! The Dark Night of the Soul is a necessary stage in the process of spiritual development for many people. I like the motto of the RAF “Per ardua ad astra”…

I do thank you for your response and enjoy the questions and answers you provide.

Likewise!

R.P.S. - Peace is not the exact word I am looking for, but it is the closest I can find. I look to a world of peace without conflicts, but I know this will not happen without many groups being extinguished - which is unacceptable. Gandhi wannabe, I suppose. I just look to a better world, though I am unsure of what that may be.

Perhaps “harmony” is more precise because it is closely associated with love.