An Interview on the Propers of the Mass

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An Interview on the Propers of the Mass

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uL9a4mujmcE

Great stuff.

I can find zero evidence that Vatican II ever called for the removal of the Propers from the Mass in the first place. In addition, I see their restoration as intrinsic to the call of Vatican II to place more emphasis on the Bible in the Liturgy.
 
If Vatican II called for the removal of the Propers, there wouldn’t be a 1974 Graduale Romanum indexed to the Novus Ordo.
 
aemcpa said:
If Vatican II called for the removal of the Propers, there wouldn’t be a 1974 Graduale Romanum indexed to the Novus Ordo.
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Agreed. Yet what percentage of Masses include them? Very few that I have seen, or even heard of.
 
I have a problem with the interview. In my opinion, the interviewer is so busy stating his own opinions and agenda, that I am not able to learn the information I would wish to hear from the gentleman being interviewed. I’m an example of a Catholic involved in music who would love to have the opportunity to LEARN about the subject, but yet, all I’m hearing in this interview (and subsequent interviews I have listened to) is the complaint that the interviewer has. I might would be inclined to agree IF the interview actually gave useful and helpful information about the Propers, what they are, how to learn about them, etc.

Like I said, just my opinion. It is frustrating to be in a position to want to learn, but not to hear any more than complaints.
 
Be careful. I think this kind of thinking can lead to disillusionment with Holy Mother Church and her priests and bishops, which can lead to attrition from the orthodox Roman Catholic Church and disobedience to the Pope appointed by Jesus Christ Himself.

Since converting to Catholicism in 2004, I have seen very few OF Masses in which the Propers are used. Does this mean that ALL those seminary-educated priests and their bishops, many who have spent significant time in Rome, are in disobedience to Holy Mother Church? What are the implications of such a pronouncement against these priests and bishops? Think carefully about this.

**Or…do you think it’s more likely that we, mere laypeople, are failing to fully understand the teaching of Holy Mother Church in regards to the use of the Propers in the OF Mass?
**

I’m opting for the latter. I think most of us simply don’t understand all the various options for the OF Mass. I personally admit that I don’t know everything about the Catholic Church, and I didn’t receive a call to the priesthood (and never will, since I’m a woman), and I didn’t attend seminary for many years, and I have never been in Rome sitting under some of the best Catholic teachers in the world.
 
jwinch2 said:
An Interview on the Propers of the Mass

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uL9a4mujmcE

Great stuff.

I can find zero evidence that Vatican II ever called for the removal of the Propers from the Mass in the first place. In addition, I see their restoration as intrinsic to the call of Vatican II to place more emphasis on the Bible in the Liturgy.
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It was actually mandated by Musicam Sacram 1967 which assigned the propers to the third degree (of importance) and then added “The custom legitimately in use and widely confirmed of substituing other songs given for the entrance, offertory, and communion can be retained”. The document then said that the faithful should participate in this as much as possible through simple responses. It took many years for vernacular and singable propers to emerge, and though some parishes began to adopt them, they have found that the assembly simply don’t partipate in the chants so many have reverted back to using hymns.
 
Cat said:
Be careful. I think this kind of thinking can lead to disillusionment with Holy Mother Church and her priests and bishops, which can lead to attrition from the orthodox Roman Catholic Church and disobedience to the Pope appointed by Jesus Christ Himself.

Since converting to Catholicism in 2004, I have seen very few OF Masses in which the Propers are used. Does this mean that ALL those seminary-educated priests and their bishops, many who have spent significant time in Rome, are in disobedience to Holy Mother Church? What are the implications of such a pronouncement against these priests and bishops? Think carefully about this.
.
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Oh knock it off.

I didn’t accuse anyone of disobedience. Its not an issue of disobedience, but rather selecting the least preferred option. The Propers and Antiphons are the most preferred option, the four hymn sandwich the least.

Furthermore your argument is weak in that the lay people are not the ones in the positions of authority when it comes to what music is, or is not, included in the Mass. That authority rests with the clergy.

Finally, both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI made explicit statements that Vatican II had not been properly implemented when it came to sacred music, So, if you have concerns about the implications of my statement, I suggest taking it up with them.
 
Elizabeth779 said:
I have a problem with the interview. In my opinion, the interviewer is so busy stating his own opinions and agenda, that I am not able to learn the information I would wish to hear from the gentleman being interviewed. I’m an example of a Catholic involved in music who would love to have the opportunity to LEARN about the subject, but yet, all I’m hearing in this interview (and subsequent interviews I have listened to) is the complaint that the interviewer has. I might would be inclined to agree IF the interview actually gave useful and helpful information about the Propers, what they are, how to learn about them, etc.

Like I said, just my opinion. It is frustrating to be in a position to want to learn, but not to hear any more than complaints.
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Fair criticism in my view. These should help a good deal.

us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=81d357824f841cad0851fb7cb&id=af635da6eb&e=7e3eeab6b5

b16schola.org/what-are-the-propers/

dioceseofmarquette.org/UserFiles/Bishop/PastoralLetter-RejoiceInTheLordAlways.pdf

ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html#Silence
 
jwinch2 said:
Agreed. Yet what percentage of Masses include them? Very few that I have seen, or even heard of.
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Just about every Benedictine monastery of the Solesmes congregation, and likely of other congregations as well, chant the propers (in Gregorian chant where I attend Mass). Also, where I used to attend daily Mass in Montreal, the propers were at least recited in French. The propers can be recited instead of sung.
 
OraLabora said:
Just about every Benedictine monastery of the Solesmes congregation, and likely of other congregations as well, chant the propers (in Gregorian chant where I attend Mass). Also, where I used to attend daily Mass in Montreal, the propers were at least recited in French. The propers can be recited instead of sung.
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To my understanding, they do not function as parishes, which was the point of my post. St. Gregory’s uses the Propers as well, but I have only witnessed their use in an actual diocesan parish once. Of course, that parish was staffed by a monk, which may explain their use.

+Pax
 
jwinch2 said:
Oh knock it off.

I didn’t accuse anyone of disobedience. Its not an issue of disobedience, but rather selecting the least preferred option. The Propers and Antiphons are the most preferred option, the four hymn sandwich the least.

Furthermore your argument is weak in that the lay people are not the ones in the positions of authority when it comes to what music is, or is not, included in the Mass. That authority rests with the clergy.

Finally, both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI made explicit statements that Vatican II had not been properly implemented when it came to sacred music, So, if you have concerns about the implications of my statement, I suggest taking it up with them.
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Does reciting propers at Mass make parishioners unkind?

“Knock it off?” This is a forum, which implies solicitation of opinions. I made it clear by using the phrase “I think” that I was voicing my opinion. I have the right to do this. I question whether you have the right to tell me to “knock it off.” If you said this to me in real life, I would ask for an apology.

Perhaps others understood it, but I personally didn’t think it was clear from your OP that you were talking about selecting the “least-preferred option.” You talked about the “removal of the Propers”, which to me implied that the priests and bishops who do not use them have “removed them” from the Mass, which would be a disobedient act. If this was not what you meant, then I must confess that I failed to understand your intent.
 
@Liturgyluver,
While what you say about the legislation of Propers to the third degree in MS 1967 is true, the rhetorical framework of that was ambiguous. The “degrees” referred to establish the taxonomy of what is most important to be sung, if anything is in play, at the Mass. I’m sure it’s been noted hundreds of times how ironic the Pater Noster is of the first degree, yet remains, with the Credo, the most likely least sung entity within possibilities. Then with celebrant orations, certain movements of the Mass ordinary comprising second degree of importance you proceed to the Propers. However, mistaking that “heirarchy” with the priorities specified by the GIRM, we are coming to grips with the reality that the Propers (even if those of the Latin Graduale Romanum) are and remain of the principle place within four options. What, of course, has muddied the waters is that by the 1970 Missal those previously sung from the GR in the '62 were replaced with a set of seemingly arbitrary antiphons for the three processionals that were deemed licit for recitation only in the absence of singing the real McCoy. This thinking has significantly changed, and both France and Rome don’t show a particular interest in sqelching the burgeoning industry of chant based vernacular propers springing up here and globally.
What gets our knickers in a twist is how far can invention go musically so that a vernacular translation, literal or allusory, becomes a de facto Option One proper processional. Same thing for responsorial psalms, graduals, alleluias, tracts and sequences.
 
Cat said:
Does reciting propers at Mass make parishioners unkind?

“Knock it off?” This is a forum, which implies solicitation of opinions. I made it clear by using the phrase “I think” that I was voicing my opinion. I have the right to do this. I question whether you have the right to tell me to “knock it off.” If you said this to me in real life, I would ask for an apology.
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If you said what you said to me in real life, you would get the exact same response you got here. I tend to react poorly when people admonish me for no reason and accuse me of leading people away from the Church. This is particularly true when my claims are backed up by the writings and statements of more than one Pope. I’m kind of weird that way.

If you don’t enjoy getting that kind of response, then I would suggest that you consider not warning people to “be careful”, telling them that they need to “think carefully” about something, and that they are “making a pronouncement against these priests and bishops” when you admittedly are not familiar with the topic. Furthermore, you might stop suggesting that someone’s actions might be leading people away from the Church when you have zero evidence of it.

If you don’t understand someone’s post, its very simple to ask for clarification. Furthermore, your argument about this being a forum where people can express their opinions goes both ways.

You can have the last word if you like. I am ready to discuss the topic, rather than this.
 
I agree with Cat and find the “knock it off” comment discourteous. Cat raised legitimate questions and the questions were not written in an accusing manner but rather a questioning manner.
 
Propers? :o

I always thought that the Propers were the parts of the Mass that vary for the given day, and include the Opening Prayer, or Responsorial Psalm, for example. But it seems by this thread that the “Propers” are referring to sung parts? I’m horribly confused.
 
jwinch2,

I posted the italicized sentences below on another thread to another poster, and I’m copying them here for you, with some modifications.

*I know you disagree with me. Can I ask that you please try to understand my point of view, even though you don’t agree with it?

Perhaps because I converted to Catholicism out of Evangelical Protestantism, where people leave their church because the Women’s Committee selects a color of carpeting that you don’t like, I am much more sensitive to those things in the Catholic Church that seem to me to be a “slippery slope” down the road to dissatisfaction and rebellion.
*

jwinch2, the key phrase is “seem to me.” You apparently cannot see anything potentially factious in your OP. I do, because of my particular background.

Already, your OP has caused a “rift” between you and me. I certainly did not intend for this to happen. I did not phrase my first response to your OP in a contentious, snarky way. However, my post offended you, because you felt that I was accusing you of inciting disobedience.

And I am offended because you used impolite language (“oh, knock it off”) in your response to me.

I see from your profile that you are a professor. Surely you meet many students who express disagreement with various points in your lectures or labs. Do you respond to all of them by telling them to “knock it off?”

I guess what it comes down to is this, jwinch2. Your impoliteness in using such a mean-spirited response to me (“oh, knock it off”) has caused me to mistrust you and doubt the truth of what you say. Jesus said that we will know Christians by their love for each other.

At this point, what you say about the topic of propers doesn’t matter to me at all. **I don’t think the use or lack of use of propers in the Mass is nearly as important as Catholics showing love and forbearance to each other. **

Phrases like “oh, knock it off” are hurtful, not loving. There are plenty of ways for Catholics to correct each other without being mean.
.
 
MacroConnectome said:
Propers? :o

I always thought that the Propers were the parts of the Mass that vary for the given day, and include the Opening Prayer, or Responsorial Psalm, for example. But it seems by this thread that the “Propers” are referring to sung parts? I’m horribly confused.
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The propers of the Mass are those parts of the Mass that vary for the given day, yes. Of those, some belong to the choir/people, and some to the priest. The parts that belong to the choir are the Entrance Antiphon, the Gradual (which is the psalm between readings, except sung straight through and not in a responsorial format), the Alleluia, the Offertory Antiphon, and the Communion Antiphon. Although almost universally ignored in favor of hymns and the Responsorial Psalm, these are appointed for every day in the official liturgical books and are still a legitimate option.
 
??

We can chant the Propers at Mass and be nice to each other at the same time. These things are not polar opposites. I think we have a tendency to oppose two things that have nothing to do with each other on L&S.
 
MacroConnectome said:
Propers? :o

I always thought that the Propers were the parts of the Mass that vary for the given day, and include the Opening Prayer, or Responsorial Psalm, for example. But it seems by this thread that the “Propers” are referring to sung parts? I’m horribly confused.
Click to expand...
Broadly “propers” can refer to any of the changing parts of Mass:

Proper chants (Introit, Alleluia/Tract, Sequence if there is one, Offertory, Communion)
Readings, including Psalm
Proper prayers (Collect, Super Oblata, Postcommunion, Prayer “over the People” during Lent)

But when used by itself, the word “Propers” is usually understood to mean the Proper chants, liturgical texts in themselves, which are almost never used. They are almost always extracts from Scripture of varying length and so, in a certain poetic way, really are, collectively, readings in themselves.

The major complaint with not using them usually stems around the idea that not having the Propers in Mass, at least in some form, is akin to stripping the Mass of the readings and replacing them with poems or stories, or randomly omitting things like the Gloria and the Sanctus. No one would ever think of doing that–wait…–since these things are integral parts of the Mass, and it would always be an impoverishment to replace these parts with randomly-composed other things.
 
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