An issue about hanging/wearing a cross

[enzo77]

Hi,
I’m in a serious relationship with an agnostic woman of muslim background. We’re very much in love and we’re at a point of discussing marriage and children. She has no problem of the children being baptized and brought up as christians but here’s the turn… In our future house she’s against hanging a cross on the wall, because it doesn’t represent her faith, and doesn’t want the people visiting to get the wrong idea… And as a sign of respect to her she wants me to respect this objection of hers. She’s even against the children wearing a cross around their necks for no plausible reason till now…

I on the other hand am pretty attached to my faith and want the opposite…

The first thing that came into my mind to reply was this phrase from the bible: “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in his own glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels.”

But I refrained, obviously it doesn’t apply to her because she doesn’t believe in the words of the bible… So I’m stuck finding a good argument about why she should accept a cross hanged on the wall representing my faith in Jesus Christ

Would appreciate a help on this

Peace of Christ be with you all

 

[Rolltide]

Hi,
I’m in a serious relationship with an agnostic woman of muslim background. We’re very much in love and we’re at a point of discussing marriage and children. She has no problem of the children being baptized and brought up as christians but here’s the turn… In our future house she’s against hanging a cross on the wall, because it doesn’t represent her faith, and doesn’t want the people visiting to get the wrong idea… And as a sign of respect to her she wants me to respect this objection of hers. She’s even against the children wearing a cross around their necks for no plausible reason till now…

I on the other hand am pretty attached to my faith and want the opposite…

The first thing that came into my mind to reply was this phrase from the bible: “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in his own glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels.”

But I refrained, obviously it doesn’t apply to her because she doesn’t believe in the words of the bible… So I’m stuck finding a good argument about why she should accept a cross hanged on the wall representing my faith in Jesus Christ

Would appreciate a help on this

Peace of Christ be with you all

A good compromise might be a prayer corner or cabinet in your bedroom or a room not likely to be frequented by visiting guests. In the small cabinet (with doors), you can keep all of your religious books, and have a small shelf with a cross, your rosary, and possibly some icons. It will allow you to practice your tradition while still respecting hers by keeping it somewhat private.

 

[jkarp]

Hi,
I’m in a serious relationship with an agnostic woman of muslim background. We’re very much in love and we’re at a point of discussing marriage and children. She has no problem of the children being baptized and brought up as christians but here’s the turn… In our future house she’s against hanging a cross on the wall, because it doesn’t represent her faith, and doesn’t want the people visiting to get the wrong idea… And as a sign of respect to her she wants me to respect this objection of hers. She’s even against the children wearing a cross around their necks for no plausible reason till now…

I on the other hand am pretty attached to my faith and want the opposite…

The first thing that came into my mind to reply was this phrase from the bible: “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in his own glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels.”

But I refrained, obviously it doesn’t apply to her because she doesn’t believe in the words of the bible… So I’m stuck finding a good argument about why she should accept a cross hanged on the wall representing my faith in Jesus Christ

Would appreciate a help on this

Peace of Christ be with you all

These links may be of some help:
fisheaters.com/domesticchurch.html
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm (Section VI - The Domestic Church)

 

[1ke]

This is one indication that while she says she will have “no problem” with you raising the children in your Catholic faith she will in fact “have a problem” with you actually doing so.

Perhaps to her “raising” the kids Catholic means having them baptized and dropping them off a CCD once a week.

But, in fact, raising your children Catholic means a 24/7/365 witness to Christ in your homelife and in your public witness.

A Catholic home life includes prayer as a family, studying the bible, having a Catholic culture in the home through sacred art and sacramentals, going to Mass as a family, witnessing through the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, and incorporating Catholic seasons, signs, and Sacraments into your everyday life.

If you want a Catholic household and a Catholic family, then perhaps you should rethink an agnostic spouse.

 

[enzo77]

These links may be of some help:
fisheaters.com/domesticchurch.html
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm (Section VI - The Domestic Church)

Hi, Thanks for the reply.
I went to this site, and started reading. And actually I couldn’t finish because I was interpellated by some phrases I don’t really approve of.
Let my first start by stating that I’m Catholic and Saints the Virging Marry play an important part in my faith.
Now concerning the web site, here it goes:

"At a minimum, in addition to being encouraged to pray in his own words, prayers that every Catholic child should know are:

the prayers of the Rosary: Apostles’ Creed, Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, and Fatima Prayer, and the Sign of the Cross (the very smallest of children should know how and when to sign themselves)
The Nicene Creed
Blessing before Meals
Blessing after Meals
Prayer to Guardian Angel
Act of Contrition
Hail, Holy Queen
The Eternal Rest Prayer "

Jesus Christ taught us that our prayers shoudln’t be repetitive vainless words, he also taught us the “Our Father” prayer and encouraged us to do both: pray intimately in our rooms without necessarily being heard or seen in order to have an intimate communication with God, but also taught us to pray in a group, this group being the real church not the building.
Now how does this above mentionned list get qualified as a minimum ? And how does it relate to how Jesus really wanted us to pray? In an Intimite way. In my opinion the words “minimum” and “should” as they are employed, presents a distorion of how and what to teach a child about prayers.

Then the following:
In contradistinction to the typical home which has a television set as its centerpiece, the focal point of a Catholic home should be the family altar
Family altars, ideally, should be on the Eastern wall of a home, in the same orientation as church buildings. The altar can be as simple or as elaborate as one desires, but should be beautiful and conducive to contemplation. A few key items to be placed on or around the altar table are:

Crucifix
Sacred Scripture (Douay-Rheims)
Missal(s)
icons (statues and/or two-dimensional)
a Holy Water font
a cellar of blessed salt
charcoal incense burner
Rosaries
vigil candles, candles blessed at Candlemas (to burn on All Saints Day and in times of trouble), and Baptismal candles (for use at weddings and during Unction)

1rst: Why does the direction east matter? is it not here a ressemblance to bowing down to face mecca? which is something I find at the least challenging to comprehend? Isn’t the Church first the group of people? Why should we give the slightest importance about the direction east? This is the first time in my life as a Catholic that I read something emphasizing the direction something has to face… it really baffles me
2nd: which is most relevant to the original topic. If I want to hang a Crucifix in my house, it is a sign of recognition of God’s unlimited love and Christ’s suffering, how much these are important and a pivoting point in my life. It’s in way saying how much I love Christ by symbolizing his presence in my house through the Cross. I’m sorry but desrcibing an altar instead of rationalizing why an altar should be there with the all the symbols on it, seems too pagan for me…
Waiting for your replies

 

[1ke]

Now how does this above mentionned list get qualified as a minimum ?

Because these are, in fact, the “basic” prayers. Children should know them because they are used in the Rosary, Mass, the Sacraments, and in the family (meal prayers). They are the minimum because they will be frequently used in a Catholic family and during Catholic Mass and devotions. They are not the only prayers, and we learn many more as we grow older. But these are the foundational prayers children learn at an early age to participate in the Catholic family and Catholic Mass.

1rst: Why does the direction east matter?

For the same reason we face East in Mass and always have-- East is the direction of the rising sun, the direction of the Resurrection. It represents Easter morning, the empty tomb.

is it not here a ressemblance to bowing down to face mecca? which is something I find at the least challenging to comprehend?

Absolutely not. Muslims bow to Mecca, and that’s not always “East” depending upon where they live in relation to Mecca.

Isn’t the Church first the group of people? Why should we give the slightest importance about the direction east? This is the first time in my life as a Catholic that I read something emphasizing the direction something has to face… it really baffles me

Perhaps you should read a little more of Church history and you will come to understand facing East is as old as the Church is.

2nd: which is most relevant to the original topic. If I want to hang a Crucifix in my house, it is a sign of recognition of God’s unlimited love and Christ’s suffering, how much these are important and a pivoting point in my life. It’s in way saying how much I love Christ by symbolizing his presence in my house through the Cross. I’m sorry but desrcibing an altar instead of rationalizing why an altar should be there with the all the symbols on it, seems too pagan for me…
Waiting for your replies

Family altars are ancient in origin too. If you choose not to have one in your home, that is fine. Having sacred art and sacramentals are acceptable.

This in no way solves your original dilemma, which is that the woman you are thinking of marrying wants none of it.

 

[Cluny]

s it not here a ressemblance to bowing down to face mecca? which is something I find at the least challenging to comprehend?

---

What do you think gave Muslims the idea of facing towards Mecca?

Don’t marry this woman. You will be very unhappy if you do.

 

[enzo77]

I’ve been raised in a Catholic family, I have an uncle who’s a frier/abbot… and an aunt who’s a nun… Now I can go and read all sort of things about the early Christians their traditions, altars … all you want… The fact remains that the way altars are presented, privilige form over content, and that is not how I was raised.
Concerning facing east or any other direction… why is it said that ideally we should face east? because of the sun? The catholic church where I go to, the altar is completely on the west side of the building, and we face the altar, so we’re facing west. I know this is completely off topic, but I repeat I was taught as a Catholic to privilege content over form… And I don’t see in this link any help for my dilemna, I’m trying to find arguments which speak to the soul, heart and mind… I’m not looking for a description of how my altar should be…

Now about remarks like “Don’t marry this woman. You will be very unhappy if you do.”

“If you want a Catholic household and a Catholic family, then perhaps you should rethink an agnostic spouse”

I am 100% sure that with some research I can make a strong case of how these statements are UNCatholic. Unfotunately I don’t have the time. But let me ask a question: **Are we asked as Catholics to be secular? **

I remember how I used to pray a lot and fervently to meet a woman who I can love and who loves me endlessly in return, a soulmate… but more importantely a woman that I can build a Christian family with . And when I see us right now, how we survive extremely difficult moments, disputes where I am the one who nearly abandons… I say to myself the love we share cannot be stronger, my prayers are definitely answered concerning the “love” part and my faith tells me that in the future the “Christian family” part is going to be answered, no doubt about it… How I can I doubt?? I really can’t bring myself to

 

[SacredHeartFan]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=219439

try this. maybe you can put it in a closet or cabinet and then she will not have to see it, nor visitors but it will provide you and your children with a quiet nice place for prayer at home. you could also keep spiritual books here. there are many good suggestions on this thread.

 

[enzo77]

s it not here a ressemblance to bowing down to face mecca? which is something I find at the least challenging to comprehend?

---

What do you think gave Muslims the idea of facing towards Mecca?

Don’t marry this woman. You will be very unhappy if you do.

Muslims bowed down to Jerusalem at the beginning of Muhammad’s preaching, thus copying the Jews. Then for other reasons they turned to Mecca…

I hope this idea of altars facing east isn’t some remnant of the Mithraic religion… Would be a slap in the face (mine first)… But facing the sunrise migh suggest that it is

 

[1ke]

I’ve been raised in a Catholic family, I have an uncle who’s a frier/abbot… and an aunt who’s a nun… Now I can go and read all sort of things about the early Christians their traditions, altars … all you want… The fact remains that the way altars are presented, privilige form over content, and that is not how I was raised.

The website is simply listing items that a family altar can contain. Sacramentals and devotional candles. These are used in prayer, not as decorations, not as “form over content.”

Again, if you don’t want a family altar in your home, don’t have one.

Concerning facing east or any other direction… why is it said that ideally we should face east? because of the sun?

Facing East comes from our Jewish heritage, as Jews face East in prayer based on Genesis 2:28; Ezekiel 43:2,4

And, our Christian faith includes this aspect of facing East. See Acts 1:11; and Revelation 7:2. See also the Early Church Fathers including Origen, Tertullian, St. John Damascene, Clement of Alexandria, Saint Basil and Saint Augustine.

The catholic church where I go to, the altar is completely on the west side of the building, and we face the altar, so we’re facing west.

The fact that your parish has departed from Catholic tradition in no way nullifies the Catholic tradition of facing East.

I know this is completely off topic, but I repeat I was taught as a Catholic to privilege content over form… And I don’t see in this link any help for my dilemna, I’m trying to find arguments which speak to the soul, heart and mind… I’m not looking for a description of how my altar should be…

Then you are free to ignore the link given to you if you do not want a family altar.

I am 100% sure that with some research I can make a strong case of how these statements are UNCatholic. Unfotunately I don’t have the time.

I am 100% sure that they are Catholic:

1 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Catholic Papal Documents on Mixed Marriage:

ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/G16QUASV.HTM

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html (starting at paragraph 82)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19700331_matrimonia-mixta_en.html

But let me ask a question: **Are we asked as Catholics to be secular? **

Huh? What are you talking about?

I remember how I used to pray a lot and fervently to meet a woman who I can love and who loves me endlessly in return, a soulmate… but more importantely a woman that I can build a Christian family with . And when I see us right now, how we survive extremely difficult moments, disputes where I am the one who nearly abandons… I say to myself the love we share cannot be stronger, my prayers are definitely answered concerning the “love” part and my faith tells me that in the future the “Christian family” part is going to be answered, no doubt about it… How I can I doubt?? I really can’t bring myself to

I’m not really sure what the purpose of your post is. You are asking for help in formulating an argument of why your agnostic-muslim girlfriend should accept Catholic devotional items displayed in your home.

Well, why should she? She isn’t a Catholic and doesn’t believe in these things.

There really isn’t a good “argument” for why she should allow these things in your home.

Being yoked in marriage to an unbeliever is inherently dangerous to the practice of your faith and the raising of your children in the faith.

If you proceed in this relationship, I wish you all the best. However, I believe you are ignoring serious issues and warning signs. Ultimately it’s your decisions and no one here can tell you what to do or not do. We can only give our opinion and our experiences.

 

[Middleman]

May I suggest to you that if this is an issue now, while you are in the throes of sexual desire and passion, at the beginning of your relationship, that it will grow to be a huge elephant in your living room in the years to come.

Do you actually believe that the mother of your children will not have a profound influence on them? And, if she does come to believe in God again, then you can count on the fact that she will return to the faith of her childhood. She’s already showing you that in her heart of hearts she is extremely uncomfortable with your Catholic faith.

I think you would be making a grave error if you enter into marriage with this woman. This is not equivalent to marrying a non-Catholic Christian. You are treading on dangerous ground here. You would be marrying a person belonging to a religion fundamentally opposed to Christianity and Judaism. Think about it! You are asking for a lifetime of heartache and grief if you have children with this woman!

 

[samcarter14]

You say she is agnostic, or says she is. By definition, then, she is not a practicing Muslim and has no “faith” which can be insulted by a cross or crucifix.

If you are expected to respect her lack of faith, then she should respect your faith and your desire to express it.

This is why multi-faith marriages rarely work. It is incredibly difficult to walk that tightrope between practicing your faith and “offending” your loved one. My MIL married an agnostic–or rather, a person not raised in any faith at all. It was a very difficult, troubled 40 years until he was baptized a Catholic at the age of 70! Now, she endured a lot of verbal abuse and emotional neglect for practicing her faith. She had to say her Rosary when he wasn’t home, and my DH remembers seeing her try to hurry through it after getting her housework done. If the housework wasn’t done, he would accuse her of “just sitting around praying all day for no good reason.” He took the spark plugs out of the car so she couldn’t take their children to Mass, even though he promised to let them be raised Catholic.

I have no doubt you love this woman, but you need to think about what it means to be “unequally yoked” as a couple in the future. It doesn’t sound like she is supportive of your faith. Will she be supportive of your children being raised in the Church, or will she sabotage it?

 

[kevinsgirl]

You say she is agnostic, or says she is. By definition, then, she is not a practicing Muslim and has no “faith” which can be insulted by a cross or crucifix.

If you are expected to respect her lack of faith, then she should respect your faith and your desire to express it.

This!

 

[latinmasslover]

You’re the head of the home, she has no business pushing her beliefs (or rather the lack thereof). You’re obliged to raise your children with the truth, whether or not she accepts it. Putting the wife before the Lord is, as I’m sure you’ll agree, not the wisest thing to do. Not to mention, the example it would be to your children. If she refuses to allow you to put Him first, she’s probably not the one He intends for you. You’ll both be in my prayers. God Bless.

 

[enzo77]

You say she is agnostic, or says she is. By definition, then, she is not a practicing Muslim and has no “faith” which can be insulted by a cross or crucifix.

If you are expected to respect her lack of faith, then she should respect your faith and your desire to express it.

This is why multi-faith marriages rarely work. It is incredibly difficult to walk that tightrope between practicing your faith and “offending” your loved one. My MIL married an agnostic–or rather, a person not raised in any faith at all. It was a very difficult, troubled 40 years until he was baptized a Catholic at the age of 70! Now, she endured a lot of verbal abuse and emotional neglect for practicing her faith. She had to say her Rosary when he wasn’t home, and my DH remembers seeing her try to hurry through it after getting her housework done. If the housework wasn’t done, he would accuse her of “just sitting around praying all day for no good reason.” He took the spark plugs out of the car so she couldn’t take their children to Mass, even though he promised to let them be raised Catholic.

I have no doubt you love this woman, but you need to think about what it means to be “unequally yoked” as a couple in the future. It doesn’t sound like she is supportive of your faith. Will she be supportive of your children being raised in the Church, or will she sabotage it?

I appreciate this statement a lot:
"If you are expected to respect her lack of faith, then she should respect your faith and your desire to express it. "

Thank you!

Well we’ve come a long way in discussing raising up children; on the contrary, she is feeling the lack of spirituality in her life so she appreciates me doing the efforts to raise them up as Christians, teaching them Christian values and to have a spiritual life. I admit that she is unable now (or maybe ever will be) to take part of this process and she could very well just be a bystander; but not in any way sabotage this.
Concerning “unequally yoked” and the quote “1 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” Now this is holy scripture but also contextual… and to be contextually taken, it is subject to interpretation and evolution, and this is a great point of difference and an advantage over other supposed books of God that are ridiculously immutable… The essence of Chritianity is love, hope, openness, accepting the other, spreading the good word and showing the right path… I am not perfect and I might fail at doing that… But the Christian faith is also about God intervening, searching for the lost sheep and bringing him home… It might be pretentious of me to say I can convert her, chances are I might fail… but does that mean that I should loose hope and accept the judgement: “You are asking for a lifetime of heartache and grief if you have children with this woman!” or “Don’t marry this woman. You will be very unhappy if you do.” How are these statements suddenly facts and them being facts doesn’t contradict the Christian faith?

On the other hand, because she’s from a Muslim background, I’ve been busy for several months studying this religion and have now my own convictions and formed a very strong opinion about it. So I discuss the Muslim religion with her and try to show why I do not appreciate it’s teaching and values, and I made it very clear that I’ll be profoundly against our children being exposed to islam teachings or practices and she is OK with that.
Which brings me to a question I asked earlier, using a bad expresion and I apologize about it:
Are we asked as Catholics to be sectarian? (secular was the bad expression, sorry again)
Peace of Christ

 

[IrishAm]

Which brings me to a question I asked earlier, using a bad expresion and I apologize about it:
Are we asked as Catholics to be sectarian? (secular was the bad expression, sorry again)
Peace of Christ

I think (but am not certain) I understand your question and my response would be, “We Catholics are asked to be Catholic.” Hiding your faith in your own home is a denial of your faith.

I’m sorry if I have misread the question . . .

 

[whatevergirl]

This is one indication that while she says she will have “no problem” with you raising the children in your Catholic faith she will in fact “have a problem” with you actually doing so.

Perhaps to her “raising” the kids Catholic means having them baptized and dropping them off a CCD once a week.

But, in fact, raising your children Catholic means a 24/7/365 witness to Christ in your homelife and in your public witness.

A Catholic home life includes prayer as a family, studying the bible, having a Catholic culture in the home through sacred art and sacramentals, going to Mass as a family, witnessing through the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, and incorporating Catholic seasons, signs, and Sacraments into your everyday life.

If you want a Catholic household and a Catholic family, then perhaps you should rethink an agnostic spouse.

amen…agree. This is just a harbinger of more to come, enzo.

 

[whatevergirl]

I appreciate this statement a lot:
"If you are expected to respect her lack of faith, then she should respect your faith and your desire to express it. "

Thank you!

Well we’ve come a long way in discussing raising up children; on the contrary, she is feeling the lack of spirituality in her life so she appreciates me doing the efforts to raise them up as Christians, teaching them Christian values and to have a spiritual life. I admit that she is unable now (or maybe ever will be) to take part of this process and she could very well just be a bystander; but not in any way sabotage this.
Concerning “unequally yoked” and the quote “1 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” Now this is holy scripture but also contextual… and to be contextually taken, it is subject to interpretation and evolution, and this is a great point of difference and an advantage over other supposed books of God that are ridiculously immutable… The essence of Chritianity is love, hope, openness, accepting the other, spreading the good word and showing the right path… I am not perfect and I might fail at doing that… But the Christian faith is also about God intervening, searching for the lost sheep and bringing him home… It might be pretentious of me to say I can convert her, chances are I might fail… but does that mean that I should loose hope and accept the judgement: “You are asking for a lifetime of heartache and grief if you have children with this woman!” or “Don’t marry this woman. You will be very unhappy if you do.” How are these statements suddenly facts and them being facts doesn’t contradict the Christian faith?

On the other hand, because she’s from a Muslim background, I’ve been busy for several months studying this religion and have now my own convictions and formed a very strong opinion about it. So I discuss the Muslim religion with her and try to show why I do not appreciate it’s teaching and values, and I made it very clear that I’ll be profoundly against our children being exposed to islam teachings or practices and she is OK with that.
Which brings me to a question I asked earlier, using a bad expresion and I apologize about it:
Are we asked as Catholics to be sectarian? (secular was the bad expression, sorry again)
Peace of Christ

The question is…what do YOU want? Do you want your wife to really share in the upbringing of the kids…do you want your wife to enjoy celebrating your faith–together? Yes, interfaith marriages CAN work, but do you want your marriage to ‘just work’ or do you want to share every single aspect, especially faith, with the person you marry? It’s not like golf. lol Like 1ke said, it’s a commitment, our faith…it’s not a hobby, and her ‘tolerance’ of your faith, isn’t the same as her acceptance of it. Or her willingness to learn about it. I might feel differently, if she approached this whole thing with more of that sentiment. I just caution you, to think really hard about the kind of relationship you want within your marriage. I think there isn’t a more important subject than faith to either bring a couple together, or tear it apart. If she sees herself having difficulty looking at a cross/crucifx hanging within a home you both may share someday…then you will go into this marriage totally compromising your values, faith, beliefs…to stay married. Just have to ask yourself some hard questions before marrying her, I think. If your faith isn’t important, these things won’t matter…but, I think they matter, otherwise you wouldn’t have started the thread!

Just something to think about. God bless, and good luck with your situation.

 

[tomarin]

amen…agree. This is just a harbinger of more to come, enzo.

For the sake of the argument, is it possible that God put his fiancee in Enzo’s life in order that she will eventually come around to Catholicism? Nothing’s impossible, right?