An observation about the bible and book of mormon

[Elric]

Whether the book of mormon is true or not, it still has not been proven to be a fraud. And that is the problem.

Yes it has.

If its not a fraud, why the aversion to the questions I asked?

 

[why_me]

I am pleased to see you have opted to be more open and representitive about your Mormon faith. The honesty is appreciated.

I can not say that I am a representative about the mormon faith. I just know that much is said on this section of the forum that just might not be exactly correct in interpretation about mormonism. The lds church still exists precisely because it has not been proven a fraud. Also, if all the negaives about the lds church were true on this forum in their interpretaion, there would be no lds church today.

 

[why_me]

Well who do I believe, a person who claims not to be a mormon (all appearences to the contrary) or a person who says they are a former mormon?

Besides how would you know?

You are not a mormon.

I posted a link and an explantation in a previous post. The explanation is in blue and the link is posted where more can be read. Former mormons can slant the truth and make a lady bug sound evil if thy so desire.

 

[swariffin]

On the book of mormon and honey bees thread Majick275 stated:

the BoM asserts many things that are either unproven or actually disproven. more importantly though it does NOT contain any accounts of what we now know was in existence then. I have thought all along that you were a TBM trying to use a Catholic background to lead the unwary here to your missionaries. I don’t think it will happen and I still hold out hope that you will put away the false prophets of the Mormons and accept the exclusive truth of the ONE, Holy, Catholic church. God bless you,

My comment: The bible can be proven by archeological evidence however it cannot prove that Christ is the Christ, the son of god. We need faith to believe so. There is nothing in the bible that can give us proof that Christ worked miracles. It takes faith to believe so. No problem.

With the book of mormon there is no substantial archeological evidence to conclusively support the book of mormon, however, we do have a book which has been testified by 11 witnesses to be the work of god and who have seen the plates that the book was translated from.

To believe the bible or the book of mormon, one needs faith. It is in the faith that the two books are united. Neither will be conclusively proven to be true because if this were the case, faith would no longer be needed and that can not happen.

Such is the religious life…all is based on faith. Sign seekers will always be disappointed.

Dear Why Me,

It has been many discussion about Mormonism while I am just a watcher. It is not my goal to participate in any discussion discrediting Mormonism. But, Mormonism is new to me and I know nothing about. As a Mormon, I think you can search into your “database” of any Mormon/LDS Church all over the world, can’t you? If that so, could you please refer me of an LDS Church (if there is one) in Jakarta, Indonesia. I would be glad to pay a visit, and who knows anybody can give me a book of Mormon in my language. It is not my goal also to convert into Mormonism, but I think it will be fair for me to know more about Mormonism. To know more of something is better than to know nothing, right?

 

[why_me]

Dear Why Me,

It has been many discussion about Mormonism while I am just a watcher. It is not my goal to participate in any discussion discrediting Mormonism. But, Mormonism is new to me and I know nothing about. As a Mormon, I think you can search into your “database” of any Mormon/LDS Church all over the world, can’t you? If that so, could you please refer me of an LDS Church (if there is one) in Jakarta, Indonesia. I would be glad to pay a visit, and who knows anybody can give me a book of Mormon in my language. It is not my goal also to convert into Mormonism, but I think it will be fair for me to know more about Mormonism. To know more of something is better than to know nothing, right?

I don’t know if I can help but lets see what I can do.

Here is an interesting piece of information but no address was given:

deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,1249,635212323,00.html

 

[majick275]

I know of no sections removed from the D & C but certain lectures were removed in the the 1920’s, I believe. I believe that they were the lectures on faith:

Over the years after the first printing, other revelations were received and some earlier materials were deleted. An 1835 edition, published in Kirtland, Ohio, was entitled Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints and contained 103 sections. In subsequent editions, more sections were added (see Doctrine and Covenants Editions). The most recent additions were sections 137 (1836) and 138 (1918) on salvation of the dead, and the Official Declaration 2 announcing the priesthood available to every worthy male member of the Church (1978). An article on marriage written by Oliver Cowdery in 1835 was deleted from the 1876 edition. Beginning with the 1921 edition, a set of lessons called the Lectures on Faith have not been included.

lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/scripture/doctrine_covenants.html

then allow me to enlighten you:

Doctrine and Covenants Section 101, Verse 4 (1835 edition)

*“Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy; we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband; except that in the event of death when either is at liberty to marry again.” *

this section was removed (without the vote of the members) in 1876

section 103 from the 1835 edition was also removed in 1876 as it declared that section 101 was “accepted and adopted, and ordered to be printed in [the Doctrine and Covenants] by a unanimous vote”.

and during this entire time that was canonized scripture polygamy was being practiced, taught, directed by LDS leaders. That seems to be a bit of a problem. Mormon leaders receiving “revelation” that contradicts their “standard works” and then teaching the members to act in a way prohibited by canonized scripture.

the lectures on faith are significant too since the current D&C still makes reference to them:

Beginning with the 1835 edition a series of seven theological lessons was also included; these were titled the “Lectures on Faith.” These had been prepared for use in the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio, in 1834-1835. Although profitable for doctrine and instruction, these lectures have been omitted from the Doctrine and Covenants since the 1921 edition because they were not given or presented as revelations to the whole Church.

from teh explanatory introduction of the current D&C. notice that it says these are profitable for doctrine and instruction…

what was that doctrine these lectures taught?

let’s look at lecture 5 as a whole (so we don’t lose any context) :

centerplace.org/hs/dc/lec-005.htm

wow! that seems to contradict the LDS teaching that God the Father has a body…or that the Holy Ghost is an individual person…hmmmm. yet this was included in 1835 when JS was in charge. the same JS who claimed to have met the Father and Son in person. These lectures were taught in his school of the prophets so he must have approved of this doctrine…

Looks problematic to me.

 

[majick275]

The New Tesatament contradicts itself with faith and works. This has caused a major problem between catholics and protestants. Mormons however, do tend to stress faith and works combined. But Martin Luther was no fan of works and to my understanding wanted to remove such references from the new testment. There are also sections of the new testament that stress faith without works.

I view these as contradictions. The reason why there are so many christian sects in the world is because of contradictions and interpretations found in the new testament.

the bible doesn’t contradict itself on this at all. in fact the LDS teaching on this specific subject is quite clear on that. (faith without works is dead) don’t mistake paradox for contradiction either.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Dear Why Me,

It has been many discussion about Mormonism while I am just a watcher. It is not my goal to participate in any discussion discrediting Mormonism. But, Mormonism is new to me and I know nothing about. As a Mormon, I think you can search into your “database” of any Mormon/LDS Church all over the world, can’t you? If that so, could you please refer me of an LDS Church (if there is one) in Jakarta, Indonesia. I would be glad to pay a visit, and who knows anybody can give me a book of Mormon in my language. It is not my goal also to convert into Mormonism, but I think it will be fair for me to know more about Mormonism. To know more of something is better than to know nothing, right?

Hi Swariffin, I have a good friend who is from Jakarta. He also happens to be a mormon. His family, who are also mormon, are still living in Jakarta. There are not many mormons in Indonesia! Very few in fact.

There is an Indonesian site that is the official mormon site. It is here.

 

[hosemonkey]

The vast majority of the Catholics that post regarding Mormons have already decided what the truth is to them and that the Mormons cannot and never will be right. So, that is where it comes in to play that no answer will suffice. If anyone really wants to know more about the LDS church, they should seek out information that is only found on the official church web sites or official church writings. Then, if you disagree, you can just leave it at that - knowing that you went to the source, got the information (or not) and can now get on with life. I have now answered your questions in the best way that I can to be sure you will get the most accurate answers and not just my opinion. If you go to the source and do not like what you hear, then so be it.

Annie

Yes, you are correct. We are Catholics here and we have obviously made up our minds. If we had not, we would be something else. I personally don’t care if you dressed in feathers and danced in the street, mormonism is still false and those who practice it or advocate it’s doctrines are duped and deluded. Mormon doctrines are false and change with the wind.You equate the Bible with the BOM. The BOM is a false document, produced by Joseph Smith and replete with plagiarism and poor theology. The “golden plates” are a myth and conveniently “disappeared.” If you find yourself frustrated that we Catholics fail to accept your earnest assurances that your so-called “testimony” is true, then perhaps you will toddle back to your mormon forums and complain that we are “intolerant.” One can only hope.

 

[PaulDupre]

let’s look at lecture 5 as a whole (so we don’t lose any context) :

centerplace.org/hs/dc/lec-005.htm

wow! that seems to contradict the LDS teaching that God the Father has a body…or that the Holy Ghost is an individual person…hmmmm. yet this was included in 1835 when JS was in charge. the same JS who claimed to have met the Father and Son in person. These lectures were taught in his school of the prophets so he must have approved of this doctrine…

Looks problematic to me.

Hi Majick,

That lecture could almost have been titled “The Teachings of St. John Chrysostom” or “The Teachings of Theodore of Mopsuestia”. I’ll bet Joseph had read one or both of them before writing this.

It’s a real shame that Joseph decided to change his doctrines. The LDS would have been infinitely better off if he had not done so.

Thanks for posting it,
Paul

 

[BartBurk]

Hi Majick,

That lecture could almost have been titled “The Teachings of St. John Chrysostom” or “The Teachings of Theodore of Mopsuestia”. I’ll bet Joseph had read one or both of them before writing this.

It’s a real shame that Joseph decided to change his doctrines. The LDS would have been infinitely better off if he had not done so.

Thanks for posting it,
Paul

My own guess is that Sidney Rigdon was behind the Lectures on Faith.

 

[majick275]

that would be the consensus of most. I think you can see his hand in much of the D&C. Sidney had been preaching his ideas of a church should run for some time and many of the “revelations” in the D&C appear to direct those ideas into practice. the individual revelations seem to be the JS ones. (bro. so and so sell your land, go on a mission, etc.)

 

[Annie_B]

Yes, you are correct. We are Catholics here and we have obviously made up our minds. If we had not, we would be something else. I personally don’t care if you dressed in feathers and danced in the street, mormonism is still false and those who practice it or advocate it’s doctrines are duped and deluded. Mormon doctrines are false and change with the wind.You equate the Bible with the BOM. The BOM is a false document, produced by Joseph Smith and replete with plagiarism and poor theology. The “golden plates” are a myth and conveniently “disappeared.” If you find yourself frustrated that we Catholics fail to accept your earnest assurances that your so-called “testimony” is true, then perhaps you will toddle back to your mormon forums and complain that we are “intolerant.” One can only hope.

“One can only hope”?? Well, see, that is where we differ. My faith teaches me that I can pray and expect answers. If yours teaches that you can “only hope” then you might want to reconsider your position

Annie

 

[Elric]

I posted a link and an explantation in a previous post. The explanation is in blue and the link is posted where more can be read.

Yes and what did they show?

That they change things all the time.

Former mormons can slant the truth and make a lady bug sound evil if thy so desire.

Nice, attack and try to discredit someone who has been honest and forthright. At least she answers questions.

How about trying to answer the questions that I asked (I noticed that you didnt even try to defend the BoM which was included in that post you replied to) or if you cant, maybe you could explain why you cant.

 

[hosemonkey]

“One can only hope”?? Well, see, that is where we differ. My faith teaches me that I can pray and expect answers. If yours teaches that you can “only hope” then you might want to reconsider your position

Annie

You misunderstand. One can only hope that you will go back to wherever you came from and cease to vex honest Catholics.

 

[Annie_B]

You misunderstand. One can only hope that you will go back to wherever you came from and cease to vex honest Catholics.

No - you misunderstand.

Also, if you feel that “honest Catholics” are being “vexed”, I suggest that you approach the Catholic Answers staff and seek to have the “Non Catholic Religions” category removed.

As to where I came from; I came from the Catholic church orignally…Have fun with that one and I would not ever consider going back - just as you seem to be of the mind that you would never consider becoming a member of the LDS Church.

Everyone has a choice to make at some point regarding their faith and their church. It is too bad that when some people make that decision they seem to think that it gives them the right/obligation to condemn the faith of those who do not believe as they do.

May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and yours! (Yes - the Mormons believe in the same God as you do!)

Annie

 

[hosemonkey]

No - you misunderstand.

Also, if you feel that “honest Catholics” are being “vexed”, I suggest that you approach the Catholic Answers staff and seek to have the “Non Catholic Religions” category removed.

As to where I came from; I came from the Catholic church orignally…Have fun with that one and I would not ever consider going back - just as you seem to be of the mind that you would never consider becoming a member of the LDS Church.

Everyone has a choice to make at some point regarding their faith and their church. It is too bad that when some people make that decision they seem to think that it gives them the right/obligation to condemn the faith of those who do not believe as they do.

May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and yours! (Yes - the Mormons believe in the same God as you do!)

Annie

I am going to propose that CA add a new category for mormons entitled “Non-Christian Religions”. The “god” that you believe in is not the same one that Christians believe in. You are not able to identify the “exalted man” that you worship. Can you? And I am sorry that you left the True Church and sold your birthright for a mess of pottage. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will someday enlighten you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“One can only hope”?? Well, see, that is where we differ. My faith teaches me that I can pray and expect answers. If yours teaches that you can “only hope” then you might want to reconsider your position

Annie

I doubt any Catholic is going to reconsider that position, as it is a very basic belief of Christianity. We look for hope in Christ.

 

[Elric]

No - you misunderstand.

Also, if you feel that “honest Catholics” are being “vexed”, I suggest that you approach the Catholic Answers staff and seek to have the “Non Catholic Religions” category removed.

I wouldnt agree to that, I think that the Non Cathloic Religion can give some interesting insight into other beliefs/religions.

As to where I came from; I came from the Catholic church orignally…Have fun with that one and I would not ever consider going back - just as you seem to be of the mind that you would never consider becoming a member of the LDS Church.

Everyone has a choice to make at some point regarding their faith and their church. It is too bad that when some people make that decision they seem to think that it gives them the right/obligation to condemn the faith of those who do not believe as they do.

I really dont get this talk of “faith” or even “church” to be honest.

I have already stated that I am not cathloic, so I am not interested in making anyone go back to being a cathloic or become a cathloic. Frankly, I am not interested in converting anyone to any religion. Faith/belief/religion is an extremly personal thing that should only really be shared between yourself and God, it is really nobody elses business how your relationship with God is.

That being said, that does not mean that there are no false religions/beliefs/faiths.

What really concerns me is that you cant answer what seems to be basic questions about what your church is based on. In fact no LDS member seems to be able to answer these questions.

These are not trivial questions, they are important questions based on your faith. They are things that you should be able to answer for me but more importantly, they are things that you should be able to answer for yourself.

I have to ask if you actually have any faith or know what it is (that isnt an attempt to criticise you in any way)?

The LDS church change the apparent divine words of God and yet nobody can explain why, how can there even be a church supposedly based on that Word when it gets changed?

May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and yours! (Yes - the Mormons believe in the same God as you do!)

Annie

I guess that is until that gets changed as well.

 

[majick275]

No - you misunderstand.

Also, if you feel that “honest Catholics” are being “vexed”, I suggest that you approach the Catholic Answers staff and seek to have the “Non Catholic Religions” category removed.

As to where I came from; I came from the Catholic church orignally…Have fun with that one and I would not ever consider going back - just as you seem to be of the mind that you would never consider becoming a member of the LDS Church.

Everyone has a choice to make at some point regarding their faith and their church. It is too bad that when some people make that decision they seem to think that it gives them the right/obligation to condemn the faith of those who do not believe as they do.

May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and yours! (Yes - the Mormons believe in the same God as you do!)

Annie

i will disagree with you on this point. Mormons believe in an exalted man named elohim who is but one of many in a long line of Gods. You choose to believe that he is the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but I disagree.