An Observation

[Major_Tom]

Now really, I never said or suggested any such thing. changes us.

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to get snotty. Just trying to get my arms around the idea.

I very much like, and agree with, the idea of prayer as self-help, for lack of a better phrase.

I still don’t get the ‘sanctify’ part. I checked the index of the Cathechism and it did not have anything under that heading. If you had a chance to elaborate on the concept, I would appreciate it.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to get snotty. Just trying to get my arms around the idea.

I very much like, and agree with, the idea of prayer as self-help, for lack of a better phrase.

I still don’t get the ‘sanctify’ part. I checked the index of the Cathechism and it did not have anything under that heading. If you had a chance to elaborate on the concept, I would appreciate it.

The way a priest explained sanctify to me, was simply “to make holy”.

IOW, make what you do count, because it will.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I have also seen devotions to Mary on television. They would have been beautiful worship services had their focus been on Jesus. Instead, Mary was the object of their adoration. I have often heard it said that there is no worship of Mary, but actions speak louder than words.

Devotions to Mary are devotions to Mary.
Worship of Jesus is Worship due only to God.

There is a distinct difference my friend. I have seen many Masses now, many adoration hours, and a few Rosary groups that gather before Mass. Not once could I say their focus was not on Jesus, or that folks were worshiping Mary. It may exist out there somewhere, but I would guess that would be due to neglegent pastoral care and education. That can happen anywhere.

Peace

 

[VociMike]

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to get snotty. Just trying to get my arms around the idea.

OK, no problem.

I very much like, and agree with, the idea of prayer as self-help, for lack of a better phrase.

I still don’t get the ‘sanctify’ part. I checked the index of the Cathechism and it did not have anything under that heading. If you had a chance to elaborate on the concept, I would appreciate it.

Everything God does is to draw us, without violating our free will, towards him and towards the perfection for which we were made. In that regard I tend to use the words perfection, purification and sanctification pretty much interchangeably. We are to be made perfect as our Father is perfect, holy as our Father is holy. Since God is our perfect model, our own perfection/sanctification involves unifying our will entirely with his perfect will. Prayer is (or at least can be) one component of this turning our will to his will. In this it can involve increasing our understanding of his will and our own situation, and coming to fully and freely desire what is truly best for all involved.

Again, it is all about our movement towards God, never about his movement towards us. When it appears (e.g. in the bible) that humans have “changed God’s mind”, what is really happening is that God is using whatever tools we will respond to to change our minds and hearts.

 

[Major_Tom]

OK, no problem.

Everything God does is to draw us, without violating our free will, towards him and towards the perfection for which we were made. In that regard I tend to use the words perfection, purification and sanctification pretty much interchangeably. We are to be made perfect as our Father is perfect, holy as our Father is holy. Since God is our perfect model, our own perfection/sanctification involves unifying our will entirely with his perfect will. Prayer is (or at least can be) one component of this turning our will to his will. In this it can involve increasing our understanding of his will and our own situation, and coming to fully and freely desire what is truly best for all involved.

Again, it is all about our movement towards God, never about his movement towards us. When it appears (e.g. in the bible) that humans have “changed God’s mind”, what is really happening is that God is using whatever tools we will respond to to change our minds and hearts.

Thanks for responding…

 

[Fair_Lady]

I’ve taken some quotations from Marion prayers that trouble me. What do you think of them? I’ll comment on them later when I have time.

From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
“Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o’er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.”

From: THE PRAYER A SALUTATION TO MARY (by St. John Eudes, C. J. M.)
“Hail Mary, Spouse of the Holy Ghost;”

From: THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.
(For the 150th Anniversary
of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)
“O Light of all lights!”

From: ACT OF OBLATION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
“My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.”

From: AN ELECTION PRAYER TO MARY
“O Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy,
at this most critical time,
we entrust the United States of America to your loving care.”

 

[JustaServant]

So in other words… No matter what anyone else has tried to explain to you about this issue, you choose to ignore what we believe and judge our hearts & minds on your misunderstandings of our actions.

What is sad is that I posted a link that answers the above post. Which she obviously has not read, nor is likely to.

 

[Pons]

They would have been beautiful worship services had their focus been on Jesus. Instead, Mary was the object of their adoration. I have often heard it said that there is no worship of Mary, but actions speak louder than words.

Both words have specific meanings in Catholicism, neither applicable to Mary. In addition to the links already given, here’s The Faithful have Filial Devotion to Mary by Pope John Paul II.

 

[fix]

I’ve taken some quotations from Marion prayers that trouble me. What do you think of them? I’ll comment on them later when I have time.

From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
“Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o’er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.”

From: THE PRAYER A SALUTATION TO MARY (by St. John Eudes, C. J. M.)
“Hail Mary, Spouse of the Holy Ghost;”

From: THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.
(For the 150th Anniversary
of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)
“O Light of all lights!”

From: ACT OF OBLATION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
“My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.”

From: AN ELECTION PRAYER TO MARY
“O Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy,
at this most critical time,
we entrust the United States of America to your loving care.”

All very good. We have to understand that it is God who wills that His mother has the role she does.

 

[Fair_Lady]

All very good. We have to understand that it is God who wills that His mother has the role she does.

The Bible speaks to the role that Mary was given by God, namely to be the vessel that bore His Son, Jesus Christ and to raise Jesus while He was young. Beyond that, I don’t find anything in scripture that would agree with the thoughts expressed in the Marian prayers I quoted earlier. I’ll put my comments in response to them in blue.

From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
“Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o’er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.”

God is the sovereign One who keeps us safe and keeps evil away.

From: THE PRAYER A SALUTATION TO MARY (by St. John Eudes, C. J. M.)
“Hail Mary, Spouse of the Holy Ghost;”

The spouse of Mary was Joseph.

From: THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.
(For the 150th Anniversary
of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)
“O Light of all lights!”

Jesus is the Light of all lights.

From: ACT OF OBLATION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
“My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.”
We should give all of ourselves to God.

From: AN ELECTION PRAYER TO MARY
“O Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy,
at this most critical time,
we entrust the United States of America to your loving care.”
We should entrust ourselves into the loving care of God.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I have also seen devotions to Mary on television. They would have been beautiful worship services had their focus been on Jesus. Instead, Mary was the object of their adoration. I have often heard it said that there is no worship of Mary, but actions speak louder than words.

Please define “adoration” and “worship.”

Also, do you have a problem with someone saying “All men need somone to worship and adore. That’s why I treasure you and place you high above.”? Or with someone saying, “I was made to love her, worship and adore her”?

 

[Thing]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers? Mary. There isn’t even an acknowledgment of God’s involvement in what He has done.

Comments from grateful recipients of answered prayer often include the notion that Mary’s prayers are more effective than the recipient going directly to God with their prayers. I believe it is wrong to give the credit to Mary. God is the One who provides every one of His mercies and graces. ALL glory should be directed to Him.

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place, I find it extremely offensive to give her the praise for what transpires.

To pray means to ask; in protestantism prayer may mean only worship.

25 Brethren, pray for us.

Here St. Paul is asking other people for prayers for himself. Why does St. Paul not just go directly to God?
The Hail Mary is a prayer asking Mary to pray for us to God. We also go directly to God with our prayers, but like St. Paul we can ask others to pray to God for us too.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers? Mary. There isn’t even an acknowledgment of God’s involvement in what He has done.

Comments from grateful recipients of answered prayer often include the notion that Mary’s prayers are more effective than the recipient going directly to God with their prayers. I believe it is wrong to give the credit to Mary. God is the One who provides every one of His mercies and graces. ALL glory should be directed to Him.

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place, I find it extremely offensive to give her the praise for what transpires.

Suppose you ask a friend to come over to your house to pray over you because of a physical problem. She does, and you are healed on the spot. You’re both amazed and you thank God for the miracle.

A week or so later, your friend prays over someone else, and he is healed, also. Again, everyone is amazed.

The following week, two more people are healed when your friend lays hands on them. By now, your pastor has heard of this. Your friend is invited to pray over people after the Church service on Wednesday night. The healings multiply.

This gets bigger and bigger. The next thing you know, your friend is travelling the country, appearing on TV regularly and thousands are flocking to her prayer meetings.

Sound crazy?

Kathryn Kuhlman
Oral Roberts
Benny Hinn

The list goes on.

God is behind it all, but your friend is a celebrity nonetheless. :yup:

Why shouldn’t the Mother of God get a little credit for her intercession on our behalf?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Bible speaks to the role that Mary was given by God, namely to be the vessel that bore His Son, Jesus Christ and to raise Jesus while He was young. Beyond that, I don’t find anything in scripture that would agree with the thoughts expressed in the Marian prayers I quoted earlier. I’ll put my comments in response to them in blue.

From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
“Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o’er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.”

God is the sovereign One who keeps us safe and keeps evil away.

When the Devil sees a prayer warrior like Mary standing in his path, what do you suppose is his reaction?

From: THE PRAYER A SALUTATION TO MARY (by St. John Eudes, C. J. M.)
“Hail Mary, Spouse of the Holy Ghost;”

The spouse of Mary was Joseph.

Joseph married Mary to protect her vow of virginity. He did not have sexual relations with her.

From: THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.
(For the 150th Anniversary
of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)
“O Light of all lights!”

Jesus is the Light of all lights.

Jesus said, “You are the light of the world.” Now, if we are the light of the world, how much brighter does the greatest of us shine?

From: ACT OF OBLATION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
“My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.”

We should give all of ourselves to God.

In dedicating ourselves to following Mary’s example, we learn more fully what it means to “do whatever He tells you” just as she did.

From: AN ELECTION PRAYER TO MARY
“O Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy,
at this most critical time,
we entrust the United States of America to your loving care.”

We should entrust ourselves into the loving care of God.

The prayer of a righteous [wo]man availeth much, and the prayers of Mary and the saints for our country are always in His ears.

 

[Randy_Carson]

ALL glory should be directed to Him.

ALL Glory? Really?

Well, in that case, we should cancel plans for the parades for the Super Bowl Champions in January and close those “shrines” at Cooperstown and Canton.

I’m curious…was Michaelangelo honored to hear people praising his work? Are we not the work of God’s hands?

Could it be that by recognizing and honoring some of the greatest creatures who ever lived, we are glorifying the Creator Who made them?

 

[fix]

The Bible speaks to the role that Mary was given by God, namely to be the vessel that bore His Son, Jesus Christ and to raise Jesus while He was young. Beyond that, I don’t find anything in scripture that would agree with the thoughts expressed in the Marian prayers I quoted earlier. I’ll put my comments in response to them in blue.

The bible is not the sole authority, nor is private interpretation. The first probelm we have is that we should understand that the Church is the authority. Nothing the Church teaches contradicts the bible.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Kathryn Kuhlman
Oral Roberts
Benny Hinn

Sorry, that’s a very unfortunate list…very little credibility in all three of those people. You may want to research them…all gold diggers and have pulled the wool over the eyes of many.

God is behind it all, but your friend is a celebrity nonetheless. :yup:

Watch carefully to see if God is really behind what is behind it all. First clue - is there significant money involved?

Why shouldn’t the Mother of God get a little credit for her intercession on our behalf?

What I’m seeing and hearing is an undue amount of credit. Jesus showed us how to pray and He showed us who to pray to…and it wasn’t Mary.

 

[Pons]

Jesus … showed us who to pray to…and it wasn’t Mary.

That was Gabriel’s (and the Church’s) job.

 

[Fair_Lady]

When the Devil sees a prayer warrior like Mary standing in his path, what do you suppose is his reaction?

You’ve side stepped the real issue there. God is the one who we should look to for protection. Mary does not have that power.

Joseph married Mary to protect her vow of virginity. He did not have sexual relations with her.

Mathew 1:25 tells us that Joseph kept Mary a virgin UNTIL Jesus was born - “Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.[e] And he called His name JESUS.”

In other words, because Joseph kept her a virgin until Jesus was born and not until his or her death, we can be sure that they had a normal marital relationship after the birth of Jesus.

Jesus said, “You are the light of the world.” Now, if we are the light of the world, how much brighter does the greatest of us shine?

The Bible doesn’t answer that question, does it? Jesus made a very significant claim for himself when in John 8:12 he told the Pharisees "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
It is the light of Jesus from where we receive our light and that was true of Mary also.

In dedicating ourselves to following Mary’s example, we learn more fully what it means to “do whatever He tells you” just as she did.

Again, it must be Jesus on whom we should focus our lives and it is to Him that we should dedicate ourselves. He is The Perfect One, without spot or blemish. All of humanity pales next to Him. He is the one who paid the price for our sins and He is God, our perfectly Holy, Righteous and Just God. No other human being comes close to His perfection.

The prayer of a righteous [wo]man availeth much, and the prayers of Mary and the saints for our country are always in His ears.

Again, you are side stepping the main issue here. Even if Mary and the dead saints hear our prayers and proceed to pray for us, it is God in whom we need to put our trust. He is the one with the power and sovereignty over us to do as He wills and allow His providence to unfold as He wills.

I just want to urge everyone here to go to your Bibles and really study it from the heart. See if you don’t find that it really points to Jesus and His love. Mary or any other biblical figure really are only secondary to Christ. Yes, Mary was used in a special way to bring Jesus into this world, but her work was done when she was no longer needed as an earthly mother.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Please define “adoration” and “worship.”

adoration ˌædəˈreɪʃən]
n

1. deep love or esteem
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the act of worshipping

Worship:
1.The adoration, homage, or veneration given to a deity.
2.The rites, ceremonial forms, prayers, etc., such adoration requires or assumes.
3.Excessive or ardent devotion or admiration.

Also, do you have a problem with someone saying “All men need somone to worship and adore. That’s why I treasure you and place you high above.”? Or with someone saying, “I was made to love her, worship and adore her”?

I can’t really relate to either of those statements in the context of a discussion on the worship of God. I don’t know what to do with either of them.