An Observation

[Kay_Cee]

adoration ˌædəˈreɪʃən]
n

1. deep love or esteem
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the act of worshipping

Worship:
1.The adoration, homage, or veneration given to a deity.
2.The rites, ceremonial forms, prayers, etc., such adoration requires or assumes.
3.Excessive or ardent devotion or admiration.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I wasn’t asking for a dictionary definition. I could have easily gotten that myself. I’m asking how ***you ***define “adoration” and “worship.” For example, is all prayer worship?

I can’t really relate to either of those statements in the context of a discussion on the worship of God. I don’t know what to do with either of them.

Do you find those statements excessive if they are talking about someone other than God? Here they are again:

“All men need somone to worship and adore. That’s why I treasure you and place you high above.”

“I was made to love her, worship and adore her.”

 

[Fair_Lady]

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I wasn’t asking for a dictionary definition. I could have easily gotten that myself. I’m asking how ***you ***define “adoration” and “worship.” For example, is all prayer worship?

Not necessarily. Prayer to God can be worshipful, but it can also be sinful if we do not pray acoording to His will. I believe that prayer to anyone other than God is inappropriate and sinful. Calling on the dead is strictly forbidden in scripture.

“All men need somone to worship and adore. That’s why I treasure you and place you high above.”

I’d have to disagree with the first sentence. And I’m uncomfortable with the second. God alone should be the object of our worship and adoration. Any saint worthy of his/her salt and who is a humble servant of God would not want the worship and adoration of anyone. He/she would direct all worship and adoration to God.

“I was made to love her, worship and adore her.”

In all honesty, that statement sounds blasphemous to me. God created us to worship and adore Him, and Him alone. Our God is a jealous God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You’ve side stepped the real issue there. God is the one who we should look to for protection. Mary does not have that power.

Do you believe in guardian angels?

Mathew 1:25 tells us that Joseph kept Mary a virgin UNTIL Jesus was born - “Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.[e] And he called His name JESUS.”

In other words, because Joseph kept her a virgin until Jesus was born and not until his or her death, we can be sure that they had a normal marital relationship after the birth of Jesus.

Let’s take a closer look at the passage.

Matthew 1:24-25
24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.

The word *until *here just says what happened up to the time of Christ’s birth. It doesn’t imply anything about what happened after that, although our modern use of the word until seems to imply that. For an example of this, look at 2 Samuel 6:23, which says, “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” We’re obviously not supposed to assume that she had children after she died.

Other Examples of “Until” That Do Not Require Cessation of Action

Genesis 8:7
The raven “did not return TILL the waters were dried up…” Did the raven ever return?

Deuteronomy 34:6 (Knox)
No one knew the location of his grave “until this present day” But we know that no one has known it since that day either.

And there are many, many more like these in scripture…

The Bible doesn’t answer that question, does it? Jesus made a very significant claim for himself when in John 8:12 he told the Pharisees "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
It is the light of Jesus from where we receive our light and that was true of Mary also.

Well, duh.

Again, it must be Jesus on whom we should focus our lives and it is to Him that we should dedicate ourselves. He is The Perfect One, without spot or blemish. All of humanity pales next to Him. He is the one who paid the price for our sins and He is God, our perfectly Holy, Righteous and Just God. No other human being comes close to His perfection.

Agreed. Which doesn’t really detract from Mary, either, since she is the best example of what He wants ALL of us to be.

Again, you are side stepping the main issue here. Even if Mary and the dead saints hear our prayers and proceed to pray for us, it is God in whom we need to put our trust. He is the one with the power and sovereignty over us to do as He wills and allow His providence to unfold as He wills.

Dead saints?

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

I just want to urge everyone here to go to your Bibles and really study it from the heart. See if you don’t find that it really points to Jesus and His love. Mary or any other biblical figure really are only secondary to Christ. Yes, Mary was used in a special way to bring Jesus into this world, but her work was done when she was no longer needed as an earthly mother.

Gosh, actually reading the Bible…no Catholic has ever thought of that before.

When exactly was Mary “no longer needed as an earthly mother”?

At the wedding in Cana when she taught us “Do whatever He tells you”? At the foot of the cross when Jesus commended John (and us) to her maternal care? At the day of Pentecost when she waited for the Holy Spirit Who had already overshadowed her many years before - unlike the other disciples who had no clue?

 

[JustaServant]

so is my God too bad you don’t want to know Him

That’s not necessary. Keep it charitible.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Not necessarily. Prayer to God can be worshipful, but it can also be sinful if we do not pray acoording to His will. I believe that prayer to anyone other than God is inappropriate and sinful. Calling on the dead is strictly forbidden in scripture.

If by “dead” you mean people who have physically died, I can’t help but wonder why Jesus communicated with two of them if it were “strictly forbidden.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

I’d have to disagree with the first sentence. And I’m uncomfortable with the second. God alone should be the object of our worship and adoration. Any saint worthy of his/her salt and who is a humble servant of God would not want the worship and adoration of anyone. He/she would direct all worship and adoration to God.

I was quoting the song “Bernadette” by the Four Tops.

In all honesty, that statement sounds blasphemous to me. God created us to worship and adore Him, and Him alone. Our God is a jealous God.

And that quote is from the song “I Was Made to Love Her” by Stevie Wonder.

My point is that the words “worship” and “adore” are sometimes used in ways other than to describe the honor due to God.

 

[Fair_Lady]

If by “dead” you mean people who have physically died, I can’t help but wonder why Jesus communicated with two of them if it were “strictly forbidden.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

That was the transfiguration of Christ. One purpose of that was show the glory of Christ to His disciples and as we all know, God can and may do as He wills in order to accomplish His purposes. Praying to saints who have died is a whole other matter.

I was quoting the song “Bernadette” by the Four Tops.

And that quote is from the song “I Was Made to Love Her” by Stevie Wonder.

My point is that the words “worship” and “adore” are sometimes used in ways other than to describe the honor due to God.

I was wondering where those words came from. Secular songs often carry thoughts and ideas with no mind towards God. Idolatry is very common outside of Christianity and that is pretty much the theme of those songs by the sounds of it.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Do you believe in guardian angels?

Yes I do. However, Mary is not a guardian angel. That is a whole different realm of God’s creation and I don’t want to take the time to go into that right now but we’re not to pray to our guardian angels either.

Let’s take a closer look at the passage.

Matthew 1:24-25
24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.

The word *until *here just says what happened up to the time of Christ’s birth. It doesn’t imply anything about what happened after that, although our modern use of the word until seems to imply that. For an example of this, look at 2 Samuel 6:23, which says, “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” We’re obviously not supposed to assume that she had children after she died.

Other Examples of “Until” That Do Not Require Cessation of Action

Genesis 8:7
The raven “did not return TILL the waters were dried up…” Did the raven ever return?

Deuteronomy 34:6 (Knox)
No one knew the location of his grave “until this present day” But we know that no one has known it since that day either.

And there are many, many more like these in scripture…

Scripture does say that Jesus had brothers and it only stands to reason that Mary and Joseph would have had normal marital relations in order to produce children. That, in no way shape or form, takes away from the special role that Mary played in bringing forth the baby Jesus.

I’ll have to come back to this later…time to get ready for work. Have a good day.

 

[Kay_Cee]

That was the transfiguration of Christ. One purpose of that was show the glory of Christ to His disciples and as we all know, God can and may do as He wills in order to accomplish His purposes. Praying to saints who have died is a whole other matter.

If what you say is true, I will be forced to conclude that God is a hypocrite who doesn’t even obey His own rules–or at least your fallible interpretation of His rules. Also, I can’t help but wonder why He would give us such a terrible example by breaking His own rules.

I was wondering where those words came from. Secular songs often carry thoughts and ideas with no mind towards God. Idolatry is very common outside of Christianity and that is pretty much the theme of those songs by the sounds of it.

Then I suggest you contact Motown Records and Tamla Records and tell them they’re promoting idolatry.

Allow me to explain a bit about Catholic teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches that God is infinitely greater than all His creatures combined.

It therefore follows that all God’s creatures combined are infinitely less than God.

It therefore follows that Mary, being only one of God’s creatures, is even less that that.

That’s Church teaching.

However, wouldn’t Jesus, being fully man, be subject to the Ten Commandments? And wouldn’t Jesus follow the Ten Commandments fully? I mean, would he follow them in a half-baked, wishy-washy sort of way, or would He follow them to the greatest degree possible?

So wouldn’t Jesus follow the commandment to honor His father and mother? (BTW, the Hebrew word for honor is kaboda, which literally means “to glorify.”) Jesus’ Father is His Father in heaven, right? And doesn’t He honor His father fully, to the greatest degree possible? Can you even imagine Him slacking off in this regard? And if this is true, wouldn’t He also follow the commandment to honor His mother? Can you even imagine Him slacking off in this regard either?

But aren’t we supposed to be Christ-like? That is, aren’t we supposed to be like Christ? Shouldn’t we do as He does? Shouldn’t we honor His Father and heaven and also honor His mother?

Now, I don’t mean giving Mary honor, glory, and praise due to God alone. But you seem to think giving her any honor whatsoever somehow detracts from God. If that’s so, why would God give us a commandment to honor our own parents?

 

[Fair_Lady]

If what you say is true, I will be forced to conclude that God is a hypocrite who doesn’t even obey His own rules–or at least your fallible interpretation of His rules. Also, I can’t help but wonder why He would give us such a terrible example by breaking His own rules.

What “rule” did God break at the transfiguration?!!! Maybe take a moment and think through that kind of logic because it would also bring one into the belief that God broke the rule of “Thou shalt not kill” by killing most of the human population in the great flood.

Then I suggest you contact Motown Records and Tamla Records and tell them they’re promoting idolatry.

I’m not familiar with either record company. If they are promoting idolatry, I guess I wouldn’t be too surprised, because it’s very common in the music industry.

Allow me to explain a bit about Catholic teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches that God is infinitely greater than all His creatures combined.

It therefore follows that all God’s creatures combined are infinitely less than God.

It therefore follows that Mary, being only one of God’s creatures, is even less that that.

That’s Church teaching.

I would have to agree that God is greater than all of His creation.

However, wouldn’t Jesus, being fully man, be subject to the Ten Commandments? And wouldn’t Jesus follow the Ten Commandments fully? I mean, would he follow them in a half-baked, wishy-washy sort of way, or would He follow them to the greatest degree possible?

Jesus was perfectly sinless, so yes, He would have obeyed the Ten Commandments. But there is no hint that we should pray to Mary or any other saints who have passed on in scripture.

So wouldn’t Jesus follow the commandment to honor His father and mother? (BTW, the Hebrew word for honor is kaboda, which literally means “to glorify.”) Jesus’ Father is His Father in heaven, right? And doesn’t He honor His father fully, to the greatest degree possible? Can you even imagine Him slacking off in this regard? And if this is true, wouldn’t He also follow the commandment to honor His mother? Can you even imagine Him slacking off in this regard either?

I’m sure that Jesus would have been the kind of son that every parent would have wanted. I am also sure that had Mary died ahead of Him, He would not have prayed to her because He taught us to pray to His Father . No writer of scripture ever hinted that praying to dead saints is a practise for us to follow.

But aren’t we supposed to be Christ-like? That is, aren’t we supposed to be like Christ? Shouldn’t we do as He does? Shouldn’t we honor His Father and heaven and also honor His mother?

Mary played a special role in the history of man, but she was a human being only. There is very little said about her in scripture as her role played out over a short span of time. One of the greatest ways we honour our parents is by obeying them.

Now, I don’t mean giving Mary honor, glory, and praise due to God alone. But you seem to think giving her any honor whatsoever somehow detracts from God. If that’s so, why would God give us a commandment to honor our own parents?

I don’t have a problem with the issue of honouring our parents. Once they die, though, we are not in communicaiton with them so it is futile to pray to them. On the other hand, God is always with us if we are His and He is ours. He is the one with the power to do for us as He wills. He invites us to come to Him and ask:

James 1:5-6
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

1 John 5:14-15
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Philippians 4:6
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Dead saints?

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

To clarify, I was pointing to saints who have physically died and no longer with us in the physical realm. On another thought, how would one be sure that a person who has died and is being prayed to is actually in heaven? Wouldn’t it be a possibility that one is praying to someone who is in hell?

When exactly was Mary “no longer needed as an earthly mother”?

At her death. After Jesus was taken up out of this world, she would still have had the role as mother to the rest of her children.

 

[Kay_Cee]

What “rule” did God break at the transfiguration?!!! Maybe take a moment and think through that kind of logic because it would also bring one into the belief that God broke the rule of “Thou shalt not kill” by killing most of the human population in the great flood.

Excuse me, but it’s your rule. You said callling on the dead was “strictly forbidden” in scripture, making such a rule an absolute with no exceptions. God does say “***Thou ***shalt not kill” not that He should not kill those over whom He has ultimate authority.

I’m not familiar with either record company. If they are promoting idolatry, I guess I wouldn’t be too surprised, because it’s very common in the music industry.

I’m sure you can google addresses for both of them. So why don’t you contact them?

I would have to agree that God is greater than all of His creation.

Nice to know we agree about something!

Jesus was perfectly sinless, so yes, He would have obeyed the Ten Commandments. But there is no hint that we should pray to Mary or any other saints who have passed on in scripture.

I also don’t see any hint in scripture of a ban on praying to Mary or any other saints. Please show me the scriptural prohibition on praying to those alive in Christ. (BTW, to “pray” means to “beseech” not to “worship.”)

I’m sure that Jesus would have been the kind of son that every parent would have wanted. I am also sure that had Mary died ahead of Him, He would not have prayed to her because He taught us to pray to His Father . No writer of scripture ever hinted that praying to dead saints is a practise for us to follow.

Again, show me the scriptural prohibition against praying to those alive in Christ.

Mary played a special role in the history of man, but she was a human being only. There is very little said about her in scripture as her role played out over a short span of time. One of the greatest ways we honour our parents is by obeying them.

I never said she was an angel or a demi-god or anything of the sort.

I don’t have a problem with the issue of honouring our parents. Once they die, though, we are not in communicaiton with them so it is futile to pray to them. On the other hand, God is always with us if we are His and He is ours. He is the one with the power to do for us as He wills. He invites us to come to Him and ask:

James 1:5-6
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

1 John 5:14-15
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Philippians 4:6
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Please show me where scripture says that the fact that we can go directly to God means we are never to communicate with those alive in Christ who have passed on. I want book, chapter, and verse, please. And remember, I mean a prohibition against communicating with those alive in Christ.

 

[nilofc]

Thank you for your response. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but that reasoning still doesn’t make sense. I have children, so I appreciate your analogy. But God WANTING his children to act a certain way does not logically lead to saying, ‘God will act upon their request’.

If I die, and have few friends, etc., I may have no one praying/asking God for mercy on my soul. A popular person will have many such requests. I feel to see how this doesn’t reduce the praying/asking to a popularity contest. If no prays for me, doesn’t God judge me just the same? Again, I’m not trying to be obstinate, but your response doesn’t answer the question for me. It rings of ‘Well, it can’t hurt to ask, can’t it?’, and frankly that seems, if anything, superstitious.

I am not being argumentative either but… if you don’t believe in praying for one another…then surely you don’t believe in James 5:16. “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

I’d like to see you wiggle your way out of that verse…If the bible tells us so…then your disagreemeent is not with us but with the word of God.

Peace.

 

[Major_Tom]

I am not being argumentative either but… if you don’t believe in praying for one another…then surely you don’t believe in James 5:16. “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

I’d like to see you wiggle your way out of that verse…If the bible tells us so…then your disagreemeent is not with us but with the word of God.

Peace.

Well, since you asked…!

I don’t know the Book of James very well, but does James (or anyone else) tell us exactly WHAT prayer avails? I thought that VociMike’s response seems reasonable: in essence, prayer makes us feel better. I’m cool with that.

I’ll recap the example that I laid out earlier: Scenario A: I die. No one prays for my soul. Scenario B: I die, and scads of people pray for my soul.

Specifically, what are the different results of Scenario B compared to Scenario A. Is my time in purgatory shortened…? If so, why.

And I don’t need to wiggle out of anything. I don’t believe that the Book of James is the Word of God; I believe that the Book of James is the word of the author of the Book of James.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Well, since you asked…!

I don’t know the Book of James very well, but does James (or anyone else) tell us exactly WHAT prayer avails? I thought that VociMike’s response seems reasonable: in essence, prayer makes us feel better. I’m cool with that.

I’ll recap the example that I laid out earlier: Scenario A: I die. No one prays for my soul. Scenario B: I die, and scads of people pray for my soul.

Specifically, what are the different results of Scenario B compared to Scenario A. Is my time in purgatory shortened…? If so, why.

And I don’t need to wiggle out of anything. I don’t believe that the Book of James is the Word of God; I believe that the Book of James is the word of the author of the Book of James.

I would wonder about the kind of christian community you were involved in if no one prayed for your soul.

Before, and after death.

Why are christians so “results” oriented? You are to pray without ceasing, even if the person you had been praying for ceases.

 

[dcrowmik]

The Bible speaks to the role that Mary was given by God, namely to be the vessel that bore His Son, Jesus Christ and to raise Jesus while He was young. Beyond that, I don’t find anything in scripture that would agree with the thoughts expressed in the Marian prayers I quoted earlier.

Perhaps you may be able to tell us what you think about when you read this verse again in Luke 1:48 (KJV) where Mary says:

"48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

I’m sure you know earlier in the chapter (v.28) where the angel Gabriel says the same thing: “blessed art thou among women” (again KJV). Additionally, in v.42 Elizabeth uses the same word to describe her while at the same time using the same word to describe Jesus: “42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.” You can see this in full context here.

Please let us know your thoughts on what the term “blessed” means. If Jesus is called “blessed” in Elizabeth’s greeting, that word must mean something pretty darn special, right?

After you answer us these, then next we can talk about why the king of Protestants, Martin Luther himself, had quite a devotion to Our Lady (and I’ll even provide you his sermons and writings to show you).

Thanks, Fair Lady, for your continued search for truth. Please let us know what you might think about this.

 

[Major_Tom]

I would wonder about the kind of christian community you were involved in if no one prayed for your soul.

Before, and after death.

Why are christians so “results” oriented? You are to pray without ceasing, even if the person you had been praying for ceases.

I’m cool with praying. As I said, I think it does have merit: I think it helps focus/relax your mind, and I do it myself. Nilofc seems to think it may do more than that, so I’m just asking exactly what the “more than that” is. I have a feeling that there are many people (including Catholics) who think that it does, for a lack of a better word, attempt to persuade God to do something, or that it can lead to concrete manifestations like healing.

 

[Fair_Lady]

God does say “***Thou ***shalt not kill” not that He should not kill those over whom He has ultimate authority.

Bingo! That’s my point. God had and has ultimate authority to do whatever He wills in order to accomplish His purpose. If He wanted to send Moses and Elijah at the time of Christ’s transfiguration, He has the power and authority to do so. His ways are not our ways nor are our ways His ways.

I’m sure you can google addresses for both of them. So why don’t you contact them?

I guess I don’t have the time or energy or interest in those companies. Perhaps you can tell me what bearing they have on this discussion.

Nice to know we agree about something!

I also don’t see any hint in scripture of a ban on praying to Mary or any other saints. Please show me the scriptural prohibition on praying to those alive in Christ. (BTW, to “pray” means to “beseech” not to “worship.”)

Typically, the Bible instructs us on how to do things instead of listing every way of not doing something. If it were the latter, the book would be endless. For instance, the Bible doesn’t pointedly tell us not to pray to Zeus. Does that mean that we should pray to Zeus? No. Insteadl, we are to do as the Bible instructs and those instructions do not include praying to those alive in Christ or Zeus.

Again, show me the scriptural prohibition against praying to those alive in Christ.

Instead, I’ve shown you by scripture what we are to do - we are to pray to God.

I never said she was an angel or a demi-god or anything of the sort.

Fair enough.

Please show me where scripture says that the fact that we can go directly to God means we are never to communicate with those alive in Christ who have passed on. I want book, chapter, and verse, please. And remember, I mean a prohibition against communicating with those alive in Christ.

Again, it boils down to the fact that the Bible gives us specific instruction on what to do. And that does not include communicating with those alive in Christ.

Kay Cee, we can always settle these matters by going directly to the word of God. Take everything you read or hear ,no matter from whom it comes, and line it up with what God has said. If those things don’t agree, always take what God has said at face value and leave the rest behind. In doing so, you will be blessed.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Perhaps you may be able to tell us what you think about when you read this verse again in Luke 1:48 (KJV) where Mary says:

"48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

I’m sure you know earlier in the chapter (v.28) where the angel Gabriel says the same thing: “blessed art thou among women” (again KJV). Additionally, in v.42 Elizabeth uses the same word to describe her while at the same time using the same word to describe Jesus: “42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.” You can see this in full context here.

Please let us know your thoughts on what the term “blessed” means. If Jesus is called “blessed” in Elizabeth’s greeting, that word must mean something pretty darn special, right?

After you answer us these, then next we can talk about why the king of Protestants, Martin Luther himself, had quite a devotion to Our Lady (and I’ll even provide you his sermons and writings to show you).

Thanks, Fair Lady, for your continued search for truth. Please let us know what you might think about this.

Mary indeed was blessed. She played a very special and important role in the history of mankind and God used her in a very significant way. When I read your post, my mind immediately went to the beatitudes (Matt. 5). I think that Mary would have had the characteristics that Jesus described there and she, like all who have those characteristics, are blessed of God.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I guess I don’t have the time or energy or interest in those companies. Perhaps you can tell me what bearing they have on this discussion.

Since you call the statements they promote idolatry, I figured you would want to do something about it. Or do you complain only about Catholics?

Typically, the Bible instructs us on how to do things instead of listing every way of not doing something. If it were the latter, the book would be endless. For instance, the Bible doesn’t pointedly tell us not to pray to Zeus. Does that mean that we should pray to Zeus? No. Insteadl, we are to do as the Bible instructs and those instructions do not include praying to those alive in Christ or Zeus.

I disagree. The Bible says we shall have no other gods. Zeus is a false god. We never claim that Mary or any other saint is a god.

But I take it from this that you cannot find any prohibition against praying to Mary. In other words, you are arguing from silence. But actually all you can conclude here is that the Bible is silent about this.

Instead, I’ve shown you by scripture what we are to do - we are to pray to God.

Nobody here is saying we shouldn’t pray to God. But does scripture say we should pray to God alone? If it doesn’t, why am I not free to pray to others?

Again, it boils down to the fact that the Bible gives us specific instruction on what to do. And that does not include communicating with those alive in Christ.

Uh . . . where did you get this “fact” that the Bible “gives us specific instruction on what to do” and that if it doesn’t give us specific instructions we’re not to do it? Does the Bible state this “fact”? If so, where? If not, doesn’t your “fact” of the Bible giving us specific instructions on what to do self-destruct, since the Bible doesn’t give you specific instructions to believe such a “fact”? (Please remember you said “*specific *instructions,” so if you find a Bible verse, I expect it to address this specifically.)

Kay Cee, we can always settle these matters by going directly to the word of God. Take everything you read or hear ,no matter from whom it comes, and line it up with what God has said. If those things don’t agree, always take what God has said at face value and leave the rest behind. In doing so, you will be blessed.

You seem to be arguing from a position that everything must be found in the Bible. Well, Fair Lady, you believe things that are nowhere found in scripture. Earlier you quoted from the books of James, 1 John, Matthew, and Phillipians. Perhaps you can show me where the Bible says those books are scripture.

If we are to “settle these matters by going directly to the word of God” isn’t it first necessary to determine what constitutes the word of God? Where does the Bible tell us which books belong in the Bible? (Hint: it doesn’t.)

So here’s the problem: If you’re free to believe something nowhere stated in scripture (that is, which books belong in the Bible), why aren’t I free to believe something nowhere stated in scripture (that is, praying to those alive in Christ)?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’m cool with praying. As I said, I think it does have merit: I think it helps focus/relax your mind, and I do it myself. Nilofc seems to think it may do more than that, so I’m just asking exactly what the “more than that” is. I have a feeling that there are many people (including Catholics) who think that it does, for a lack of a better word, attempt to persuade God to do something, or that it can lead to concrete manifestations like healing.

The older Irish catholic lady who has sorta adopted me at the parish I go to, explained to me that all prayers are granted with the caveat that they are in God’s will. If they are not God’s will, those prayers won’t be wasted but will be joined to another’s need/God’s will for something else.

I would object to the idea of prayers persuading God, even though some here may bring up some verses in the bible that imply he can be persuaded. I just think that’s the wrong way to look at it.