An Observation

[fbl9]

snip.
I would object to the idea of prayers persuading God, even though some here may bring up some verses in the bible that imply he can be persuaded. I just think that’s the wrong way to look at it.

I am guilty of that line of thinking,and for some reason i feel that you are correct in what you are saying that this method is the wrong way to look at it…

God already knows want we need/want, maybe it’s His way of keeping us humble in that we should ask first before assuming it is ours to take.Also it is a great way to build a person’s faith in that they asked and recieved… Makes one wonder what should we be asking for in the first place?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I am guilty of that line of thinking,and for some reason i feel that you are correct in what you are saying that this method is the wrong way to look at it…

God already knows want we need/want, maybe it’s His way of keeping us humble in that we should ask first before assuming it is ours to take.Also it is a great way to build a person’s faith in that they asked and recieved… Makes one wonder what should we be asking for in the first place?

If I were a believer, I think one of my prayers would be to ask God to help me conform my mind to his will more and more and to have the strength to carry out what it is set before me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes I do. However, Mary is not a guardian angel. That is a whole different realm of God’s creation and I don’t want to take the time to go into that right now but we’re not to pray to our guardian angels either.

I agree that Mary is not an angel; however, I asked to determine exactly where you might draw the line. God has clearly established that there are those who have watch over us. You think angels can do this but not saints. I think that God can allow or even ordain that those loved ones who have gone to heaven in the past can continue to pray for us now just as they did here on earth.

Scripture does say that Jesus had brothers and it only stands to reason that Mary and Joseph would have had normal marital relations in order to produce children. That, in no way shape or form, takes away from the special role that Mary played in bringing forth the baby Jesus.

I am aware of the passages to which you refer. However, are YOU aware of the fact that Aramaic contains no word for “cousin” - a fact that forced the Jews to refer to all kinsmen as “brothers” or “sisters” even though they were not literally uterine siblings?

Further, are you aware of the fact that the so-called "brothers of the Lord’, James, Joseph, Simon and Jude, can be PROVEN from scripture to be the sons of a woman other than Mary?

Finally, are you aware that the constant teaching of Christians for 2,000 years (including all of the original Protestant Reformers) maintains that Mary remained ever-virgin, and that the idea of her having “normal marital relations” is a theological novelty of modern Protestantism?

 

[Randy_Carson]

To clarify, I was pointing to saints who have physically died and no longer with us in the physical realm. On another thought, how would one be sure that a person who has died and is being prayed to is actually in heaven? Wouldn’t it be a possibility that one is praying to someone who is in hell?

Conceivably, it is possible that we might ask for intercession from someone who may in hell. So what? Our lack of certainty doesn’t change the principle that those who have died can intercede for us. This doesn’t really advance your argument, however, since all you have really done is to suggest the possibility that we’re praying (not worshipping) to the wrong person; you have not disproved the concept.

At her death. After Jesus was taken up out of this world, she would still have had the role as mother to the rest of her children.

Since Mary had not other children of her own, Jesus commended her to the Apostle John for her remaining years. If Jesus actually had REAL brothers and sisters as you claim, why did He not leave her in their care?

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’m sure that Jesus would have been the kind of son that every parent would have wanted. I am also sure that had Mary died ahead of Him, He would not have prayed to her because He taught us to pray to His Father . No writer of scripture ever hinted that praying to dead saints is a practise for us to follow.

Where in the Bible does it say “…that had Mary died ahead of Him, He would not have prayed to her because He taught us to pray to His Father?” Please cite book, chapter and verse.

 

[StrawberryJam]

There can be nothing more arrogant than to presume with conviction, and try to persuade others into believing what they think Jesus would or would not do under circumstances that did not occur. This sounds dangerously close to taking the Lord’s name in vain to me.

Fair Lady, it would be better if you would say you personally don’t believe Jesus would/would not do something than to say what you did about what he would not do if Mary died prior to him.

 

[Ignatius]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers?

Neither Mary nor anyone else can do anything on their own. If anything that gets done is done by the power of Jesus God. That is understood. Asking Mary for intercessory prayer is no different than asking your congregation for their prayers for you. You have to use common sense when trying to understand this.

 

[dcrowmik]

Answer yourself this question – have you ever asked friends, realtives, etc. to pray to God for you or for something or other, or have you ever prayed to God on behalf of someone else? I’ll bet you have. Well, it’s no different than asking Mary or someone else in Heaven to pray to God for you.

Make sense?

Dear Fair Lady – the question above I asked and you never answered. You’ll find it on the very first page of the thread. Please answer.

If you answer, “sure, I’ve asked friends, etc., to pray to God for me, or I have prayed to God for others,” please then tell us why you have done that. Since you said the Bible instructs us on what to do, back your answer up with scriptural references.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Since you call the statements they promote idolatry, I figured you would want to do something about it. Or do you complain only about Catholics?

Heathens will do as heathens do. I am much more concerned about unscriptural things that go on in the name of God.

I disagree. The Bible says we shall have no other gods. Zeus is a false god. We never claim that Mary or any other saint is a god.

I think there is merit in your point that Zeus is a false god. However, that doesn’t change the fact that God doesn’t tell us to pray to saints.

But I take it from this that you cannot find any prohibition against praying to Mary. In other words, you are arguing from silence. But actually all you can conclude here is that the Bible is silent about this.

I don’t see the Bible as silent on this because it instructs us on what to do.

Nobody here is saying we shouldn’t pray to God. But does scripture say we should pray to God alone? If it doesn’t, why am I not free to pray to others?

You are free to do as you please. I am going to follow the way of God’s holy word.

Uh . . . where did you get this “fact” that the Bible “gives us specific instruction on what to do” and that if it doesn’t give us specific instructions we’re not to do it? Does the Bible state this “fact”? If so, where? If not, doesn’t your “fact” of the Bible giving us specific instructions on what to do self-destruct, since the Bible doesn’t give you specific instructions to believe such a “fact”? (Please remember you said “*specific *instructions,” so if you find a Bible verse, I expect it to address this specifically.)

What is it you want? A list of “Thou shalt nots”? There would be no end to it. The Bible doesn’t tell us not to pray to monkeys who have passed on either. Does that mean we should pray to dead monkeys? That’s absurd. Again, God gave us clear instruction on prayer and I’ve listed a few in an earlier post. I don’t want to beat this subject to death but again we do need to find out what God wants for us through scripture. And He has adequately done so and doesn’t dissapoint.

You seem to be arguing from a position that everything must be found in the Bible. Well, Fair Lady, you believe things that are nowhere found in scripture. Earlier you quoted from the books of James, 1 John, Matthew, and Phillipians. Perhaps you can show me where the Bible says those books are scripture.

It takes a certain measure of faith to either accept that the books contained in the Bible are indeed scripture. I am satisfied that God speaks to me through those books. I hope that you receive from God as well through His word.

So here’s the problem: If you’re free to believe something nowhere stated in scripture (that is, which books belong in the Bible), why aren’t I free to believe something nowhere stated in scripture (that is, praying to those alive in Christ)?

Your are free to do what you will. Whether or not it is God’s will is a whole other matter but that is between you and Him.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I agree that Mary is not an angel; however, I asked to determine exactly where you might draw the line. God has clearly established that there are those who have watch over us. You think angels can do this but not saints. I think that God can allow or even ordain that those loved ones who have gone to heaven in the past can continue to pray for us now just as they did here on earth.
If God has ordained our loved ones to received our prayers, He hasn’t told us and it’s on that basis that I will stick to what He has told us on Whom to pray to.

I am aware of the passages to which you refer. However, are YOU aware of the fact that Aramaic contains no word for “cousin” - a fact that forced the Jews to refer to all kinsmen as “brothers” or “sisters” even though they were not literally uterine siblings?

 

[Fair_Lady]

Conceivably, it is possible that we might ask for intercession from someone who may in hell. So what? Our lack of certainty doesn’t change the principle that those who have died can intercede for us. This doesn’t really advance your argument, however, since all you have really done is to suggest the possibility that we’re praying (not worshipping) to the wrong person; you have not disproved the concept.

I think it may be possible that those alive in Christ may be praying for us, but we don’t know because scripture doesn’t tell us one way or the other. Are they omniscient as God is so that they can hear our prayers? That’s my biggest difficulty with this.

Since Mary had not other children of her own, Jesus commended her to the Apostle John for her remaining years. If Jesus actually had REAL brothers and sisters as you claim, why did He not leave her in their care?

I don’t know why and the Bible doesn’t really speak to the reason. However it’s not uncommon for widows to live with people other than their children.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Where in the Bible does it say “…that had Mary died ahead of Him, He would not have prayed to her because He taught us to pray to His Father?” Please cite book, chapter and verse.

Again, it has to do with what He did instruct us to do. And I gave a number of scriptures to give us a good understanding of what that was. Had He wanted us to pray to Mary, I’m sure He would have told us just like He told us that He would not leave us alone. But rather the Comforter would come after He departed. Do you see the commont thread? It’s not about any mere man, but it’s all about God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady, it would be better if you would say you personally don’t believe Jesus would/would not do something than to say what you did about what he would not do if Mary died prior to him.

I see your point and think it has merit. Thank you.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

“Pray” means ask. It has always done so. It has never, ever, until very recent history and only among (some) protestants, been considered to refer always and only to ‘prayer to God alone’.

Otherwise you had better start asking your schools to remove all copies of Shakespeare’s works in which he specifically has his characters pray to each other. (Yes, that is what the word “prithee” means. I PRAY THEE -you). Oh no, Shakespeare’s people are praying to other people, and not to God alone–and this was after England went protestant, too. Not only that, this was also just around the time that the KJV appeared. . .and you know, if King James and his scholars had found fault with Shakespeare’s terminology and theology, don’t you think Mr. Shakespeare would have found himself (as for a different reason his contemporary Mr. Raleigh did) making a stint in the Tower for lese majeste or heresy?

Perhaps if you did consider, Fair Lady (love the name) that attempting to put 21st century narrowed or specific definitions onto 1st century words is the problem, you might understand better.

Or do you think that when the Bible refers to, say, “And all the people rejoiced and were gay” that all the people became homosexual? Why **not? **After all, in today’s society the word ‘gay’ is almost exclusively understood to mean ‘homosexual.’

Well, you would say, “But Scripture back then understood the word gay to mean happy.”

You’d be correct.

Why then can you not understand/accept that Scripture, in speaking of prayer, did not limit that prayer to God alone? If you could do that, then you might at least accept that the idea of prayer to the saints is NOT unscriptural even if you personally still find it hard to accept for yourself.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Asking Mary for intercessory prayer is no different than asking your congregation for their prayers for you.

I can’t agree with that because when we ask for others to pray for us, we have no communication barriers whle we are together here on earth. But Mary and the saints who are alive in Christ are not on earth any longer, I haven’t seen anything that would indicate that they can, in fact, hear us.

You have to use common sense when trying to understand this.

Yes, we all do.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Again, it has to do with what He did instruct us to do. And I gave a number of scriptures to give us a good understanding of what that was. Had He wanted us to pray to Mary, I’m sure He would have told us just like He told us that He would not leave us alone. But rather the Comforter would come after He departed. Do you see the commont thread? It’s not about any mere man, but it’s all about God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You didn’t answer my question so I must assume that there is no place in the Bible where it states “…that had Mary died ahead of Him, He would not have prayed to her as He taught us to pray to His Father.”

Yet here you go again, with your statement “Had He wanted us to pray to Mary, I’m sure He would have told us…” Why? Why are you sure? Again, you are presuming what Jesus would and wouldn’t do!! Why do you believe that you have the right to assume what Jesus would do? You are sure. You’re not merely offering it as a possibility; you are sure!! You are awfully sure of some things that aren’t in the Bible yet you say that we shouldn’t pray to saints because it isn’t in the Bible. Why are you allowed to believe what is not in the Bible, but Catholics aren’t??

Yes, you are “sure” (your word) that Jesus wouldn’t pray to Mary. Is it your interpretation of scripture that allows you to be absolutely sure? What if my interpretation differs from yours? Who is right??

 

[Fair_Lady]

Dear Fair Lady – the question above I asked and you never answered. You’ll find it on the very first page of the thread. Please answer.

If you answer, “sure, I’ve asked friends, etc., to pray to God for me, or I have prayed to God for others,” please then tell us why you have done that. Since you said the Bible instructs us on what to do, back your answer up with scriptural references.

I’m sorry to have missed that. Thank you for your patience. Why do I pray for others?

11.Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:43-45 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
12.Mark 13:33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mark 13:32-34 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)
13.Luke 6:28
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luke 6:27-29 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)
14.John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 17:8-10 (in Context) John 17 (Whole Chapter)
15.Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Romans 8:25-27 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
16.Colossians 1:9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Colossians 1:8-10 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter)
17.1 Thessalonians 5:25
Brethren, pray for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:24-26 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 5 (Whole Chapter)
18.2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 Thessalonians 3:1-3 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 3 (Whole Chapter)
19.Hebrews 13:18
Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.
Hebrews 13:17-19 (in Context) Hebrews 13 (Whole Chapter)
20.1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1 John 5:15-17 (in Context) 1 John 5 (Whole Chapter)

 

[Fair_Lady]

Hey, I’m not able to keep up with all of you!!! I’m going to have to wait until the busyness of the season is over before I get a chance to answer you. I wish each and everyone of you a wonderful Christmas in the celebration of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[graceandglory]

I’ve been researching Catholicism because my granddaughter goes to a Catholic school and I am interested in finding out what she is learning.

One observation I’m making is that it is common for Catholics to pray to Mary to ask her to pray for them. Then the praise report comes in. Who gets the credit for answered prayers? Mary. There isn’t even an acknowledgment of God’s involvement in what He has done.

Comments from grateful recipients of answered prayer often include the notion that Mary’s prayers are more effective than the recipient going directly to God with their prayers. I believe it is wrong to give the credit to Mary. God is the One who provides every one of His mercies and graces. ALL glory should be directed to Him.

Aside from the fact that I don’t believe Mary should be prayed to in the first place, I find it extremely offensive to give her the praise for what transpires.

When I was protestant, it was well known that some people had more of a “gift for intercession” or were “prayer warriors.” When people asked them to pray for them, their prayers would be answered. There are pentecostal preachers on tv who are millionaires because of their “prayer ministries.” People send a hundred bucks and a prayer request, and they claim their prayers get answered. They spend time on their tv shows reading about answered prayers. eg. Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Pat Robertson,…

They are praying to God, and it’s God who answers those prayers.

The effective prayer of the righteous man availeth much.

How much more righteous can you be than to be already in the presence of God in Heaven? Mary is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the throne of God.

"And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. " Revelation 8:4

One thing that Catholics have that I didn’t have as a protestant, is this sense of timelessness. Death knows no bounds. Absent from the body, present with Christ…, those who are in heaven are alive, not dead. They are as able to pray for me as my best friend is. And because they are already in heaven, they are already totally righteous, there is no spot or blemish on them, because we know from scripture that nothing even remotely unholy will enter heaven.

I teach in a Catholic school, and I can tell you, don’t believe everything that comes home from the kids. They might have misunderstood.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Hey, I’m not able to keep up with all of you!!! I’m going to have to wait until the busyness of the season is over before I get a chance to answer you. I wish each and everyone of you a wonderful Christmas in the celebration of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I pray that God brings you peace and joy on the day we celebrate the birth of Jesus and on every other day of the year…