An Observation

[Kay_Cee]

I don’t see the Bible as silent on this because it instructs us on what to do.

Where does the Bible say that the Bible instructs us on what to do in every case?

You are free to do as you please. I am going to follow the way of God’s holy word.

It is my greatest desire to follow God’s will in each and every thing.

What is it you want? A list of “Thou shalt nots”?

No, I want an admission from you that the only thing you can conclude from the Bible’s silence on an issue is that it is silent on it. Instead, you add to the Word of God by giving me instructions nowhere found in scripture regarding whom I am allowed to pray to.

There would be no end to it. The Bible doesn’t tell us not to pray to monkeys who have passed on either. Does that mean we should pray to dead monkeys? That’s absurd. Again, God gave us clear instruction on prayer and I’ve listed a few in an earlier post. I don’t want to beat this subject to death but again we do need to find out what God wants for us through scripture. And He has adequately done so and doesn’t dissapoint.

Where does the Bible say that God has given us clear instruction on prayer? Where does the Bible say that we do need to find out what God wants for us through scripture?

You keep adding to scripture by giving me these ideas nowhere found in scripture. Yet when I want to do something not found in scripture, you condemn me. Why is it okay for you but not for me?

It takes a certain measure of faith to either accept that the books contained in the Bible are indeed scripture. I am satisfied that God speaks to me through those books. I hope that you receive from God as well through His word.

So you do submit to an authority other than scripture. That is, you submit to “a certain measure of faith” and you claim you are satisfied with this. (You do realize, don’t you, that a Mormon could also use this criterea to accept the Book of Mormon?)

Of course I receive from God through His word. I have read the Bible from cover to cover. That’s how I know some of the things you’re telling me and expect me to believe are not found in scripture.

Your are free to do what you will. Whether or not it is God’s will is a whole other matter but that is between you and Him.

You imply I am not following God’s will, but when I ask you to prove it to me, you give me nothing based on the Bible but instead supply your own opinion. You imply I should adhere only to what’s in scripture, but you fail to do that yourself. So why should I believe you? You do see the problem with this, don’t you?

I plan on being off-line tomorrow since I wish to spend Christmas Day in prayer and with my family. I hope you have a Merry Christmas, and I’ll return after the holiday.

 

[fbl9]

Again, it has to do with what He did instruct us to do. And I gave a number of scriptures to give us a good understanding of what that was. Had He wanted us to pray to Mary, I’m sure He would have told us just like He told us that He would not leave us alone. But rather the Comforter would come after He departed. Do you see the commont thread? It’s not about any mere man, but it’s all about God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

That’s the part you don’t seem to understand,God did indeed tell us through HIS Church…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy Carson;6087701:

I agree that Mary is not an angel; however, I asked to determine exactly where you might draw the line. God has clearly established that there are those who have watch over us. You think angels can do this but not saints. I think that God can allow or even ordain that those loved ones who have gone to heaven in the past can continue to pray for us now just as they did here on earth.

If God has ordained our loved ones to received our prayers, He hasn’t told us and it’s on that basis that I will stick to what He has told us on Whom to pray to.

If you ask your loved ones to pray for you now, why would feel that you can no longer stop asking for their prayers once they have died?

Finally, I suspect that more than a few widows and widowers have stood at the graves of their spouses pouring out their hearts to their loved ones, so don’t pretend for a moment that Protestants don’t talk to their “dead”. If you’ve seen Forest Gump, the scene at the end where he talks to Jenny is a perfect example.

Are you then suggesting that what are referred to as the brothers of Jesus were actually cousins?

Cousins, distant relatives, half-brothers by Joseph’s previous marriage. Something along this lines, yes.

Why? Because I can PROVE to even your satisfaction that the “brothers” mentioned in scripture are actually the sons of other mothers.

No, but I’d be interested in what would be regarded as “proof” of that.

Okay.

Brothers of Jesus, Not Sons of Mary**
**
Many non-Catholics deny the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by referring to passages of scripture that mention the “brothers” of Jesus. A rigorous analysis of scripture, however, proves their position is false. Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.

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"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?”(Matthew 13:55)
2. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.

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“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

3. There are two apostles named James.

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“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”(Luke 6:13-16)
4. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

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“James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)
5**. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.**

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“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

6. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.

7. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his mother is Mary and his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus.

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“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

8. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

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“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

1. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think it may be possible that those alive in Christ may be praying for us, but we don’t know because scripture doesn’t tell us one way or the other. Are they omniscient as God is so that they can hear our prayers? That’s my biggest difficulty with this.

I agree that they are not omniscient, but I’m not sure that omniscience is necessary. You know when someone asks you to pray for them. Why can the saints not “know” when someone asks for their prayers. Can God not route these requests to the appropriate person in heaven? Kind of a heavenly swithboard…one ringy dingy.

I don’t know why and the Bible doesn’t really speak to the reason. However it’s not uncommon for widows to live with people other than their children.

The significance of this is that Jewish law and custom prescribed the obligation that the eldest children had to care for their parents. Consequently, if Jesus had other brothers and sisters, His decision to commend his mother into the care of someone other than these family members would have been an insult to them (and potentially a violation of Jewish law - though I am less certain on this specific point of law). An odd thing to do to your siblings as one of your final acts on this earth, eh?

 

[Des]

Instead, I’ve shown you by scripture what we are to do - we are to pray to God.

So the Prayer that Christ gave us is the only one you use when you pray to God? That’s what it was implying if you want to take it to its extreme literal sense. In context that verse was talking about if we are to pray to God, then that’s how we should do it. It was the first example of the perfect Prayer to Him.

Again, it boils down to the fact that the Bible gives us specific instruction on what to do. And that does not include communicating with those alive in Christ.

Revelations tells us differently where the Saints are indeed giving (interceding) our Prayers to God.

Kay Cee, we can always settle these matters by going directly to the word of God. Take everything you read or hear ,no matter from whom it comes, and line it up with what God has said.

One can’t simply assume when they interpret Scripture that they are ‘hearing’ the Word of God unless they wish to claim infallibility while doing so. Is this what you are doing? If not, does it make sense to assume that this was the only means to know what God had to say to His Church? When what you are reading may or may not be deviating you from the truth?

At her death. After Jesus was taken up out of this world, she would still have had the role as mother to the rest of her children.

The very first Book of the Bible tells us Her role that God has laid out for Her.

“I will put enmity between you and the Woman, between your offspring and hers. He will crush your head while you will strike at his heel” (Gen 3:15)

Not necessarily. Prayer to God can be worshipful, but it can also be sinful if we do not pray acoording to His will.

And how are you sure what His will is when so many of your answers are assumptions based on silence from the Bible?
As a matter of fact, how are you even so certain that the Bible is the Word of God? You take a huge jump of faith when assuming that it is, yet chastise us for believing we do the same regarding the Church and the Saints in Heaven according to His Oral Word.

Yes I do. However, Mary is not a guardian angel. That is a whole different realm of God’s creation and I don’t want to take the time to go into that right now but we’re not to pray to our guardian angels either.

So I’m to assume you never thank your Guardian Angel for your protection? Your Angel is just a mere tool who God uses and has no Will of His own?

 

[Ignatius]

Hey, I’m not able to keep up with all of you!!! I’m going to have to wait until the busyness of the season is over before I get a chance to answer you. I wish each and everyone of you a wonderful Christmas in the celebration of the Lord Jesus Christ.

May you also have a very blessed and joyous Christmas and may the Lord grant you many happy, holy and blessed years.

Yours servant in Christ.

 

[cecilia97]

The Bible speaks to the role that Mary was given by God, namely to be the vessel that bore His Son, Jesus Christ and to raise Jesus while He was young. Beyond that, I don’t find anything in scripture that would agree with the thoughts expressed in the Marian prayers I quoted earlier. I’ll put my comments in response to them in blue.

From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
“Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o’er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.”

God is the sovereign One who keeps us safe and keeps evil away.

…

From: AN ELECTION PRAYER TO MARY
“O Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy,
at this most critical time,
we entrust the United States of America to your loving care.”
We should entrust ourselves into the loving care of God.

When you were a small child, did your earthly mother and father ever keep evil away from you?

Did you ever entrust yourself to their loving care?

Arguments against Catholic devotion to Mary often set up a false dichotomy between prayer to Mary and worship of God. We can do both. We can give glory to God THROUGH the work He has done by way of Mary’s hands.

I thank God for the work of my pastor. Do you praise your pastor? Does that in any way leave you with less glory to give to God? I doubt it. I would guess that, in praising the actions of your pastor, you believe you are simultaneously giving glory to God.

An artist is not upset to hear people praising his works. He is glorified when someone praises his art.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Scripture does say that Jesus had brothers and it only stands to reason that Mary and Joseph would have had normal marital relations in order to produce children. That, in no way shape or form, takes away from the special role that Mary played in bringing forth the baby Jesus.

Yes, scripture does state that Jesus had brothers. It also states that He had sisters. In fact, it states that He had a mother.

"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Mt: 12:50)

This is scripture. Do you agree with what it says?

But nowhere in scripture (that I can find) does it say that Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Joseph, her husband, had marital relations. You say that “it only stands to reason that Mary and Joseph would have normal marital relations in order to produce children.” Where do you come up with that? Can you provide scripture to back up your claim?

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

Let’s also take the following scripture:

"Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee brother Azarius, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou has bid me keep of the fish? And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kinds of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them." (Tobias 6:7-8)

Does this passage mean that Tobias and the angel are biological brothers? Or could the terms “brother” and “sister” and “mother” have more than one meaning?

 

[fbl9]

Yes, scripture does state that Jesus had brothers. It also states that He had sisters. In fact, it states that He had a mother.

"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Mt: 12:50)

This is scripture. Do you agree with what it says?

But nowhere in scripture (that I can find) does it say that Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Joseph, her husband, had marital relations. You say that “it only stands to reason that Mary and Joseph would have normal marital relations in order to produce children.” Where do you come up with that? Can you provide scripture to back up your claim?

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

Let’s also take the following scripture:

"Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee brother Azarius, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou has bid me keep of the fish? And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kinds of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them." (Tobias 6:7-8)

Does this passage mean that Tobias and the angel are biological brothers? Or could the terms “brother” and “sister” and “mother” have more than one meaning?

Just a reminder Fair Lady will disregard the quote from Tobias for they don’t hold to all scripture: just what those ,whom rejected the word made flesh,claim to be the word

 

[LittleSoldier]

Just a reminder Fair Lady will disregard the quote from Tobias for they don’t hold to all scripture: just what those ,whom rejected the word made flesh,claim to be the word

I didn’t think of that. Thanks for the clarification. I don’t know exactly what Fair Lady’s religious affilitation is. But I thought it was interesting that a human being called an angel “brother.”

 

[dcrowmik]

Hey, I’m not able to keep up with all of you!!! I’m going to have to wait until the busyness of the season is over before I get a chance to answer you. I wish each and everyone of you a wonderful Christmas in the celebration of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Fair Lady – Are you still there? Ready to take up where you left off?

 

[SPH1]

He would not have prayed to her because He taught us to pray to His Father

So, then is it okay to pray to Christ (and the Holy Spirit) or only to the Father?

I am also sure that had Mary died ahead of Him … No writer of scripture ever hinted that praying to dead saints is a practise for us to follow.

In the case of Mary: She obviously was still alive at the end of the Gospel accounts. As for Acts, Peter, Paul and most of the rest were still alive at the end. Possibly Mary also. The only book where most everyone is dead, including Mary, is Revelation, and there she is Heavenly Queen. Rev. 12:1

Once they die, though, we are not in communicaiton with them so it is futile to pray to them.

But see Rev. 5:8, Elders holding the prayers of God’s holy people. So they are in communication with us in some way.

I don’t have a problem with the issue of honouring our parents.

To my understanding, the Church does not allow prayer to just anyone, even deceased parents. Has to be a recognized, declared Saint at least.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady – Are you still there? Ready to take up where you left off?

Hi - I’m back, but just popped in for a moment. Holidays are over and off to work I go. I’ll probably need a day or two to really get back into the swing of things. Hoping you all had a wonderful Christmas!

 

[Des]

So, then is it okay to pray to Christ (and the Holy Spirit) or only to the Father?

That’s a good point SPH1. According to FairLady: “If God wanted us to Pray to the Saints He would have given us ‘clear’ instructions to do so.”

So by her example, Jesus’ clear instructions was to Pray to God the Father only. So it seems they weren’t so clear after all unless of course we aren’t supposed to Pray to God the Father or to Jesus after He died.

 

[dcrowmik]

I’m sorry to have missed that. Thank you for your patience. Why do I pray for others?

11.Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:43-45 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
12.Mark 13:33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mark 13:32-34 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)
13.Luke 6:28
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luke 6:27-29 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)
14.John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 17:8-10 (in Context) John 17 (Whole Chapter)
15.Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Romans 8:25-27 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
16.Colossians 1:9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Colossians 1:8-10 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter)
17.1 Thessalonians 5:25
Brethren, pray for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:24-26 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 5 (Whole Chapter)
18.2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 Thessalonians 3:1-3 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 3 (Whole Chapter)
19.Hebrews 13:18
Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.
Hebrews 13:17-19 (in Context) Hebrews 13 (Whole Chapter)
20.1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1 John 5:15-17 (in Context) 1 John 5 (Whole Chapter)

Thanks, those are all very nice references. You pray for others and you ask others to pray for you (I’m assuming, too, that you have probably thanked others for their prayers just as others have probably expressed their appreciation to you for yours). However, you then go on to say in another post that once someone dies you cannot pray for them or ask them to pray for you because they are in a different “realm”.

Now, here’s something I’m not yet grasping from you. Where in scripture is this realm thing stated? Where does it say that once a member of the body of Christ dies (or goes into the realm) we can no longer pray for them or ask them to pray for us? I can’t seem to find any references to that nor can I find any scriptural references supporting that view. Please point me in the right direction, thanks.

 

[Fair_Lady]

When I was protestant, it was well known that some people had more of a “gift for intercession” or were “prayer warriors.” When people asked them to pray for them, their prayers would be answered. There are pentecostal preachers on tv who are millionaires because of their “prayer ministries.” People send a hundred bucks and a prayer request, and they claim their prayers get answered. They spend time on their tv shows reading about answered prayers. eg. Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Pat Robertson,…

They are praying to God, and it’s God who answers those prayers.

The effective prayer of the righteous man availeth much.

Let’s not confuse those people with “the righteous”. I don’t want to waste a lot of my time on this, but those people are out to make a buck and they are about as theologically unsound as you can get. Yes, there are people who credit those charlatans for answered prayers because they apparently prayed after receiving a prayer request (often with money attached). But let’s remember that God lets the rain fall on the wicked just as He does on the righteous. Not only that, but had the people who sent their prayer requests not sent in any money, God may very well have answered their own prayers in the same way as when they got taken up by those clowns.

How much more righteous can you be than to be already in the presence of God in Heaven? Mary is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the throne of God.

The way I see it, the issue is “communication”. How do we communicate with those that have gone before us? The Bible makes it clear that God hears our prayers, but there’s nothing said about those in His presence in heaven hearing our prayers.

"And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. " Revelation 8:4

I haven’t had the time to do a full study on the significance of that verse, but it doesn’t seem to have much bearing on what we are discussing here, except that saints in heaven do pray.

One thing that Catholics have that I didn’t have as a protestant, is this sense of timelessness. Death knows no bounds. Absent from the body, present with Christ…, those who are in heaven are alive, not dead. They are as able to pray for me as my best friend is. And because they are already in heaven, they are already totally righteous, there is no spot or blemish on them, because we know from scripture that nothing even remotely unholy will enter heaven.

I do see boundaries in the physical sense between the saints in heaven and the saints on earth. But there are no boundaries between God and us because we have full access to Him through our prayers.

I teach in a Catholic school, and I can tell you, don’t believe everything that comes home from the kids. They might have misunderstood.

Very true.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Fair Lady, the problem I see with your position is that you have a double standard.

On one hand, you tell us you don’t believe certain things because you don’t find them in scripture. For example, in your last post you said, “The Bible makes it clear that God hears our prayers, but there’s nothing said about those in His presence in heaven hearing our prayers.”

On the other hand, you tell us things nowhere found in scripture yet expect us to believe them. You have been repeatedly asked to supply scripture to back up statements you have made, but you never provide any. (See posts 53, 61, 67, 78, and 83.)

Is it fair, Fair Lady, for you to have one standard for yourself but a different standard for us? I assume since you’re a fair lady, you’ll say no.

Then you need to do either one of two things:

1. Supply the scripture you have been asked to provide (I’m afraid you’ll find this impossible since those things you’ve stated are nowhere in scripture), or
2. Stop insisting that everything be found in scripture

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady, the problem I see with your position is that you have a double standard.

On one hand, you tell us you don’t believe certain things because you don’t find them in scripture. For example, in your last post you said, “The Bible makes it clear that God hears our prayers, but there’s nothing said about those in His presence in heaven hearing our prayers.”

On the other hand, you tell us things nowhere found in scripture yet expect us to believe them. You have been repeatedly asked to supply scripture to back up statements you have made, but you never provide any. (See posts 53, 61, 67, 78, and 83.)

Is it fair, Fair Lady, for you to have one standard for yourself but a different standard for us? I assume since you’re a fair lady, you’ll say no.

Then you need to do either one of two things:

1. Supply the scripture you have been asked to provide (I’m afraid you’ll find this impossible since those things you’ve stated are nowhere in scripture), or
2. Stop insisting that everything be found in scripture

I’m not sure how I can make myself any more clear than to say that the Bible should be the foundation of all of our beliefs. It does not contain every “don’t”, but the principle will be there if it is something we need to know.

For instance, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn’t specifically say not to pray to a dead monkey. Now that is an absurd example, but it makes the point. Should we pray to a dead monkey just because the Bible doesn’t say not to? No. In the same way, the Bible doesn’t say specifically we are not to pray to Mary or other saints that have gone before us.

Instead, the Bible TELLS US WHAT TO DO. That is important. Again, I refer you to the verses I posted earlier with regards to prayer. The Bible tells us to pray to God. Therefore, I pray to God only. It’s not a double standard. It’s God’s standard for us. And yes, it is in the Bible.

 

[cecilia97]

I’m not sure how I can make myself any more clear than to say that the Bible should be the foundation of all of our beliefs. It does not contain every “don’t”, but the principle will be there if it is something we need to know.

For instance, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn’t specifically say not to pray to a dead monkey. Now that is an absurd example, but it makes the point. Should we pray to a dead monkey just because the Bible doesn’t say not to? No. In the same way, the Bible doesn’t say specifically we are not to pray to Mary or other saints that have gone before us.

Instead, the Bible TELLS US WHAT TO DO. That is important. Again, I refer you to the verses I posted earlier with regards to prayer. The Bible tells us to pray to God. Therefore, I pray to God only. It’s not a double standard. It’s God’s standard for us. And yes, it is in the Bible.

Your example here, as you say, is absurd. But it makes the point that our faith is backed up by REASON. For many decades, there was no bible for the faithful to turn to for instruction. What did they do? They used their God-given reason, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the stories and traditions that had been handed down to them by the apostles (the very traditions that Paul speaks of in his letter to the Thessalonians). The question of praying to a dead monkey has never come up, precisley because it is absurd and goes against reason.

Christians are not called to be of two minds…the reasonable, everyday mind that we use at our jobs and on the freeway, and then the unreasonable, faithful mind. No…faith and reason go hand in hand.

I might add that the are many non-Catholic actions and traditions that the bible doesn’t explicity tell us to do…female preachers, altar calls, community service trips for teens, grape juice in separate cups, etc.

 

[dcrowmik]

For instance, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn’t specifically say not to pray to a dead monkey. Now that is an absurd example, but it makes the point. Should we pray to a dead monkey just because the Bible doesn’t say not to? No. In the same way, the Bible doesn’t say specifically we are not to pray to Mary or other saints that have gone before us.

Instead, the Bible TELLS US WHAT TO DO. That is important. Again, I refer you to the verses I posted earlier with regards to prayer. The Bible tells us to pray to God. Therefore, I pray to God only. It’s not a double standard. It’s God’s standard for us. And yes, it is in the Bible.

Here’s what I still don’t understand then. The Bible tells us to pray for others and, as you have said, you ask others to pray for you. You have quoted scripture to support that. However, you have not quoted scripture to support your view that we are to immediately stop asking others to pray for us once they have died.

Aren’t there many times in scripture where angels have “crossed the realm”, to use your words, and interacted with humans and humans have interacted with them? A good example would be Mary’s interaction with the angel Gabriel (“how can this be since I know not a man”, “be it done to me according to thy word”, etc.).

Please provide scriptural references that speak of not asking for others’ intercession once they have passed away. Please provide scriptural references that give that sense. You have already stated things that you do and believe that are not in scripture and you have thus gone away from your “do ONLY what the Bible tells us”.

Thanks for starting this conversation. Looking forward to your answers.