An Observation

[Des]

Second, the body of Christ is responsible for guarding the truth, supporting the great commission, and the building up and edification of its members, and bringing glory to God in the process, that is the meaning of that passage and purpose of the church.

A fallible body cannot support the truths of God. You can claim all you want that the Holy Spirit works with this body (the body of believers you’re specifically talking about) but your many divisions disprove this theory doesn’t it. You hold no more authority to preach the Word of God than nondenominational nick down the street. This isn’t an insult either. It’s just the way it is.

 

[rovimax]

The Canon of the NT is the written word; so no.

Anyway; I have finished up here; we will talk again and feel free to elaborate more on this later. God bless you.

Yes it is Mac, you just can’t admit it. The early Christians have to decide which Letters to be included in the NT.

In our Bible we have 2 letters addressed to the corinthians. But in 1Cor 5:9 Paul said ‘’ in the letter I wrote you’’, so it is safe to assume that Paul wrote 3 letters to the Corinthians and our 1 Cor should have been 2 Cor and the 2 Cor should be 3 Cor. But why did the early christians did not include the one mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 5:9? How about the letter to Laodicea as Paul instructed to be read by the Colossians? Col 4:16. Are missing letters part of God’s plan of salvation? I don’t think so. How about the controversial books appearing today, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas? How did we really ended up with the 27 Books of the NT. I can’t find it anywhere in the NT which books are to be included? Have you heard the story that a bishop insisted that Hebrews and Revelation to be included in the canon while Martin Luther wanted Hebrews, James, 2Peter and Revelation taken out of the NT? Did the early Christians made a mistake which books to choose? No Christian will say Yes, we believe every word in the NT to be the word of God even if it is written by sinners and a murderer. We believe because we believe in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can use sinners to teach people of God’s ways. Even when Peter was rebuked by Paul, we still believed that when he wrote his epistles he was guided by the Holy Spirit. So they started writing after they received instructions orally. That’s why Jesus told them the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth.

 

[Cristian_B]

Thanks for the partial answer but excuse me for still not understanding or finding the full answer. I still have not really found a scriptural answer on why asking for intercessory prayer from living persons is OK and why it is not OK asking from those who are gone from this earth (as with Mary). As I mentioned before and as you see above, Fair Lady gave a number of scriptural references for intercessory prayer (and asking Mary, or the saints for that matter, is asking for intercessory prayer).

However, neither you nor Fair Lady have helped me find any scriptural basis for prohibition of intercessory prayer from those not on this earth. If intercessory prayer by living persons is scripturally based then mustn’t there also be a scriptural reference about not asking those who have passed on, yes?

No need to repeat the “this is how you are to pray” quotes again unless you mean also to say that we all shouldn’t be asking each other on this thread to pray for each other.

Thanks again for bearing with me. I’m looking forward again to your answer.

*It is not the dead who praise the LORD,
those who go down to silence;
it is we who extol the LORD,
both now and forevermore.
Praise the LORD. * (Psalms 115:27)

*For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten. * (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

*Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. *
(Ecclesiastes 9:10)

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” (John 11:11)

Why does Jesus call him “asleep”?

I believe that the Scripture calls the dead “asleep” or “went down in silence” for a good reason. As Psalms 115:17 say that the fallen asleep cannot give glory to the Lord, and praying is a way of giving Him glory. Accepting the fact that He can hear millions of prayers, you’re giving Him glory and you’re praising Him. Scripture tells that those fallen asleep do not give glory to God… therefore cannot pray to Him and neither sing etc. Funny, because, if I’d go to Heaven the first thing I’d do is giving glory and praising Him as long as I can. But no, only the alive can give glory to Him.

 

[Padrej]

Thank you very much! You have helped me (and, I hope, others). A nice and simple answer that, I believe, totally contradicts everything Fair Lady and MacDaddy have said about this particular issue.

This thread originally started with Fair Lady stating her opinion that Catholics pray to Mary, ask her for assistance and give her undo praise because of that. It’s been shown throughout this thread how praying to Mary is an intercessory type of prayer and that it has nothing to do with “worshiping” her like God. Even MacDaddy himself has stated that Catholics do not worship Mary like God.

Both of them, however, have clung to the “do only what the Bible tells us” mantra but have then turned around and said NOT to ask for intercessory prayer from Mary or the saints. They have given no reasoning behind that opinion of theirs nor have they given any scriptural references (although they have given LOADS of scriptural references about other things). I guess that is because the Bible does NOT prohibit intercessory prayer nor even make any allusions against it.

If Fair Lady or MacDaddy don’t make any response to this simple issue about intercessory prayer that Fair Lady started in the first place, then I wonder if they might have somehow begun to secretly agree that intercessory prayer to Mary and the saints truly is OK. If they do begin to believe, that’s good. If they’re searching for a scriptural basis that it truly is wrong and can’t find it, that’s OK because after being asked over and over in these past 20-something pages to provide the scriptural proof, they never have.

By the way Fair Lady and MacDaddy, this is not meant to prove you wrong, just a simple question for you to help me find the scriptural basis for something you have said.

Thanks.

Thank you for pointing out those things. I was beginning to feel as if I was pounding my head against the wall with one of them on some of the points.

 

[FrJohnB]

**
As I said to Padrej, it was a typo and you know that exactly that it was; but thought you would take even more pleasure in sin. **

Romans 1
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

No need to reply; God will judge the intents of the hearts and this includes mine as well. I will not respond to any more of your post least I should become responsible for your sins.

You know it is awful funny that when somebody doesn’t agree with you and posts scripture to back this you call it “sin.” When Padrej noticed and commented on another person on this thread who observed the same behavior in you you continue to attack him as “sin” and accuse him of having pride. I think you need to look at the man in the mirror.

As Padrej pointed out there are many ways to interpret Revelation. Here are some Protestant links on this
probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.5110361/k.5D09/Four_Views_of_Revelation.htm

home.att.net/~nathan.wilson/eschtlgy.htm

Granted these are the 4 main accepted ways and there is a 5th that Padre eluded to, but to keep it simple these 4 should be studied. The latter link is actually a side by side comparison of the views.
But as Padrej pointed out too, with all due respect MacDaddy, you did not answer the point that no matter what view it is it is still an intercession of the Saints in heaven. And that point was also noticed by another poster to this thread when they complimented Padrej on his analogy of Saints interceding and how you and FairLady have avoided this.

Now the question remaining is are you going to attack the others on this thread the way you attacked Padrej and myself who do not agree with your position and point it out and call us sinners also and start quoting scripture to try to validate you position also.

My question to others on this thread: Have you noticed this behavior in MacDaddy and do you agree with it ?

 

[FrJohnB]

A typo and you know it by in your continuation of sin before the Lord you cannot help yourself because your tongue is full of deceit as the James explained. It is not I you are bringing reproach on but yourselves.

I have never been to seminary.

When the seal was open the cries came out, these are the cries “remembered” by God while they were be persecuted on earth as chapter 7 confirms, which you presented. You can look at other part of Scripture, particularly the OT has a few example of God “remembering the cries” of the oppressed.

Anyway, I am done dialoging with you because you are not a very charitable person and this will stop you from continuing in sin at least in dialogue with me.

Good day and good luck. No need to answer anything else i believe you have said enough and you are easy to discern as to your true spiritual nature. I pray God will change that for His namesake.

I was reading to my son tonight and teaching Him about the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector; you remind me of this parable sadly enough.

Once again, someone does not agree with you and points out where you are wrong and you call them a “sinner.” Did you really need to do a character assassination at the end? Padrej has done none of that to you.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Thanks for the partial answer but excuse me for still not understanding or finding the full answer. I still have not really found a scriptural answer on why asking for intercessory prayer from living persons is OK and why it is not OK asking from those who are gone from this earth (as with Mary). As I mentioned before and as you see above, Fair Lady gave a number of scriptural references for intercessory prayer (and asking Mary, or the saints for that matter, is asking for intercessory prayer).

However, neither you nor Fair Lady have helped me find any scriptural basis for prohibition of intercessory prayer from those not on this earth. If intercessory prayer by living persons is scripturally based then mustn’t there also be a scriptural reference about not asking those who have passed on, yes?

No need to repeat the “this is how you are to pray” quotes again unless you mean also to say that we all shouldn’t be asking each other on this thread to pray for each other.

Thanks again for bearing with me. I’m looking forward again to your answer.

Thanks for bringing this back on topic. While I’m not in agreement even with contacting Mary for intercessory prayer, my biggest objection has to do with praying to her as if she is God. To demonstrate what I am saying, the following are snippets from prayers to Mary and if this isn’t enough, I can assure you there are more. To be honest, I am absolutely stunned and appalled that such prayers are offered to a human being who has gone on to the presence of the Lord:

From: A CHILD’S PRAYER TO THE
IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

O Most Holy Virgin Mother,
we listen with grief to the complaints
of your Immaculate Heart

We are moved by the ardent desire of loving you as Our Mother
and of promoting a true devotion to your Immaculate Heart.

We therefore kneel before you
to manifest the sorrow we feel
for the grievances that people cause you,
and to atone by our prayers and sacrifices
for the offenses with which they return return your love.
Obtain for them and for us the pardon of so many sins.

From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o’er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.

From: A PARISH PRIEST’S PRAYER TO MARY MOST HOLY
Mother of the Church, a priestly people (I Peter 2:9),
Mother of priests, ministers of your Son:
accept the humble offering of myself,
so that in my pastoral mission
the infinite mercy of the Eternal High Priest
may be proclaimed:
O “Mother of Mercy”.

Grant me strength in the dark hours of this life,
support me in the exertions of my ministry,
entrust me to Jesus,
so that, in communion with you,
I may fulfill the ministry with fidelity and love,
O Mother of the Eternal Priest.

Make me faithful to the flock
entrusted to me by the Good Shepherd.

I consecrate and entrust myself to you, Mary,

From: PRAYER TO OUR LADY OF PERPETUAL HELP # 7
O Mother of mercy, have pity on me;
I hear all men call thee the refuge and hope of sinners:
be therefore my refuge and my hope.

Alas, it is only too true
that in the past I have fallen miserably,
because I did not come to thee.
I know that with thy help I shall conquer;
I know that thou wilt help me,
if I commend myself to thee;
but I am fearful lest in the occasions of sin
I shall forget to call upon thee
and so I shall be lost.
This grace, then, do I ask of thee;
for this I implore thee,
as much as I can and know how to do;
namely, that in the assaults of hell
I may ever run to thy protection
and may say to thee:
Mary, help me;
Mother of Perpetual Help,
permit me not to lose my God.

O Mother of Perpetual Help,
grant me ever to be able to call upon thy powerful name,
since thy name is the help of the living
and the salvation of the dying.

Dear Lady, delay not to come to my assistance
whenever I call upon thee;
for in all the temptations that assail me,
in all the necessities that befall me,
I will never leave off calling upon thee,
ever repeating: Mary, Mary.

In thy hands I place my eternal salvation;
to thee I entrust my soul.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Really? Where does scripture say this? Where does scripture say that “what scripture says about itself (the word of God) is reason enough to look to it as our final authority on matters pertaining to spirituality”? Please cite book, chapter, and verse that tells me this. Or are you once again insisting I base my beliefs on scripture alone while at the same time telling me to believe something nowhere found in scripture?

Where does scripture say “There is no other infallible source of God’s word”? Please cite book, chapter, and verse. Or are you once again insisting I base my beliefs on scripture alone while at the same time telling me to beleive something nowher found in scripture?

Where does scripture say there is no other infallible source of truth but scripture? Please cite book, chapter, and verse. Or are you once again insisting I base my beliefs on scripture alone while at the same time telling me to believe something nowhere found in scripture?

Again, where does scripture say, “There is no other source of infallible truth like it”? Please cite book, chapter, and verse. Or are you once again insisting I base my beliefs on scipture alone while at the same time telling me to believe something nowhere found in scripture?

Where does scripture say, “The principles and laws of scripture are sufficient to guide us in all things”? Please cite book, chapter, and verse. Or are you again insisting I base my beliefs on scripture alone while at the same time telling me to believe something nowhere found in scripture?

These quotes from scripture do not at all address the other things you have told me and LittleSoldier previously. Instead of providing scripture, you keep giving me your personal opinion and acting as though I should believe you based purely on your say so–while at the same time telling me I should believe only what is in scripture!!! How can you not see that you are asking me to treat two sources as infallible (scripture and YOU) while at the same time telling me only one of those sources is infallible?

In posts 53, 61, 67, 78, and 83 you were asked to provide scripture to back up things you ask us to believe. (LittleSoldier has provided some examples in post 158, and I am now adding this post to the list.) Either provide the scripture or stop claiming everything we believe must be found in scripture. THIS IS NOW MY SEVENTH REQUEST.

I truly have given adequate scripture that speaks of itself as sufficient living truth. If it doesn’t suffice for you, I’m sorry, but there isn’t much more I can do. It is obvious that the two of us don’t get the same message from those verses. I have switched back to the main topic at hand and plan to stay there.

 

[Padrej]

A typo and you know it by in your continuation of sin before the Lord you cannot help yourself because your tongue is full of deceit as the James explained. It is not I you are bringing reproach on but yourselves.

I have never been to seminary.

When the seal was open the cries came out, these are the cries “remembered” by God while they were be persecuted on earth as chapter 7 confirms, which you presented. You can look at other part of Scripture, particularly the OT has a few example of God “remembering the cries” of the oppressed.

Anyway, I am done dialoging with you because you are not a very charitable person and this will stop you from continuing in sin at least in dialogue with me.

Good day and good luck. No need to answer anything else i believe you have said enough and you are easy to discern as to your true spiritual nature. I pray God will change that for His namesake.

I was reading to my son tonight and teaching Him about the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector; you remind me of this parable sadly enough.

I know full well it was a typo, but I wanted to give you a taste of what you had been handing to me and to others. If you found that offensive then accept my apology. I was not aware that you could not take what you were clearly willing to dish out.

I will not stoop to the low level of character assassination that your last line is implying and that of some of your other posts.

 

[Padrej]

Thanks for bringing this back on topic. While I’m not in agreement even with contacting Mary for intercessory prayer, my biggest objection has to do with praying to her as if she is God. To demonstrate what I am saying, the following are snippets from prayers to Mary and if this isn’t enough, I can assure you there are more. To be honest, I am absolutely stunned and appalled that such prayers are offered to a human being who has gone on to the presence of the Lord:

From: A CHILD’S PRAYER TO THE
IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

O Most Holy Virgin Mother,
we listen with grief to the complaints
of your Immaculate Heart

We are moved by the ardent desire of loving you as Our Mother
and of promoting a true devotion to your Immaculate Heart.

We therefore kneel before you
to manifest the sorrow we feel
for the grievances that people cause you,
and to atone by our prayers and sacrifices
for the offenses with which they return return your love.
Obtain for them and for us the pardon of so many sins.

From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o’er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.

From: A PARISH PRIEST’S PRAYER TO MARY MOST HOLY
Mother of the Church, a priestly people (I Peter 2:9),
Mother of priests, ministers of your Son:
accept the humble offering of myself,
so that in my pastoral mission
the infinite mercy of the Eternal High Priest
may be proclaimed:
O “Mother of Mercy”.

Grant me strength in the dark hours of this life,
support me in the exertions of my ministry,
entrust me to Jesus,
so that, in communion with you,
I may fulfill the ministry with fidelity and love,
O Mother of the Eternal Priest.

Make me faithful to the flock
entrusted to me by the Good Shepherd.

I consecrate and entrust myself to you, Mary,

From: PRAYER TO OUR LADY OF PERPETUAL HELP # 7
O Mother of mercy, have pity on me;
I hear all men call thee the refuge and hope of sinners:
be therefore my refuge and my hope.

Alas, it is only too true
that in the past I have fallen miserably,
because I did not come to thee.
I know that with thy help I shall conquer;
I know that thou wilt help me,
if I commend myself to thee;
but I am fearful lest in the occasions of sin
I shall forget to call upon thee
and so I shall be lost.
This grace, then, do I ask of thee;
for this I implore thee,
as much as I can and know how to do;
namely, that in the assaults of hell
I may ever run to thy protection
and may say to thee:
Mary, help me;
Mother of Perpetual Help,
permit me not to lose my God.

O Mother of Perpetual Help,
grant me ever to be able to call upon thy powerful name,
since thy name is the help of the living
and the salvation of the dying.

Dear Lady, delay not to come to my assistance
whenever I call upon thee;
for in all the temptations that assail me,
in all the necessities that befall me,
I will never leave off calling upon thee,
ever repeating: Mary, Mary.

In thy hands I place my eternal salvation;
to thee I entrust my soul.

my biggest objection has to do with praying to her as if she is God.

I don’t see in any of the prayers you listed Mary being referred to as “God,” I know that there is a movement amongst liberals to feminize God so the Lords Prayer would start out “Our Father/Mother…”
I know I posted a link to the equip.org site that contained the custom of the Theotokos by the ultra Protestant Hank Henagraaff (Sp) and he agrees that she could be called “Mother of God.”
Now you have posted ones that call her “Mother of the church” so lets look at this. If Christ is head of the church and Mary is his mother on Earth, wouldn’t that title stand to reason? It does in my Protestant mind. “Mother of Priests”— Christ is our Great High Priest according to the Bible so it is no stretch there that Mary would be Mother of Priests if Jesus is the head of all the Priests here on earth.

As I pointed out in another post, Some Protestants have NO problem asking angels to come to there aide and praying that they do their bidding and then turn around and “bind demons” in Jesus name and command them do things. I really find no difference.

 

[Eliza10]

Thanks for the feedback, MacDaddy. Some comments:

… However at the end of the day and end of earthly life; God knows and judges what is right and what is not. .

Yes, and also it is a comfort to know that he is judging the intentions of hearts, not just by a rule book.

… Two problems, first it is not the foundation, you will not find the word in that passage as “foundation”, the better translation is “support” or “ground” but if you do a word search in the NT on foundation, such as **1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ **.

I am not meaning to be nitpicky, but I am not sure on what grounds you say that support or ground is a better translation that foundation. I realize the Protestant translation says ground, but that doesn’t mean its the best translation. Something based on direct translation of the original language is best. Though I am not sure it matters. That the Church is the ground of truth says a lot to me. I think Fair Lady would say the scripture is the ground of truth. But, see, the scriptures say otherwise.

… Second, the body of Christ is responsible for guarding the truth, supporting the great commission, and the building up and edification of its members, and bringing glory to God in the process, that is the meaning of that passage and purpose of the church…

True. But you are probably referring to an invisable church, a group of believers. On the other hand, we Catholics, while including those invisible believers in the Church, see that it is the visible Church through its Pope and Bishops and Priests that have been given the responsiblity and the graces and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to presereve and guard the truths, and the Word of God: not only the written word but also the oral Word, for the believers.

… It was God who gave us His word; it was the Holy Spirit that worked on a group of men, Catholic or catholic or otherwise, to decide which books were in and which were not. Quite different to your claim. .

Not so different. But are you aware that the men the Holy Spirit worked through were exclusively Catholic, not only Catholic but they were Catholic Bishops and Priests, all celebrating DAILY the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and also confession and all seven sacraments, all working under the direct authority of the Pope, the sucessor of Peter, who was the final authority in choosing which words are scripture?

That is the vehicle God used to give us scripture: the same He uses yesterday today and always: His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

… The Scripture provides the the morals, salvation, and Christian conduct as deemed by His Word, He sets the standard. **“Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceeds from the MOUTH of God” - Jesus Christ 30 A.D. **Where do you find the Word of God? The church, what is it from the Biblical definition? 1 Co. 12:13 put it in a nutshell: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” -.

We agree! The Word of God is not only the words in scripture, but also the Word of God is Christ himself, and His Word is imparted in scripture and tradition, the latter of which I do not think you acknlowledge.

… There is no “sign of the cross” in this. How are these extra traditions known and if known, then where is the divine authorization for such teaching. Don’t get me wrong; “sign of the cross” violates nothing in Scripture, but you used this as an example and I’m questioning where it came from and under what divine authority? I do not have any problems with traditions, but the litmus test is always to be the Word of God since this is the food for the Christian as Jesus aptly stated throughout the Scriptures.

Someone else can address the rest…please and thank you.

I’m so glad you asked about the wonderful and powerful sign of the cross. I will address it in another post, as I have to copy from a book.

 

[Eliza10]

…The Amazing and Holy Sign of the Cross

…http://alice.typepad.com/cottage_blessings/images/2007/03/17/dsc09306.jpg

…I grew up Protestant, but even when I was a child, when I saw my childhood Catholic friend use this holy practice, I sensed there was something sacred about it. As an adult convert I embraced it readily as a blessed tradition of the Holy Church.

…And then I felt it was a gift of grace just for me, from my benevolent Lord, to bless and confirm my faith, when I came across the following historical revelation of its early source in David Currie’s Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic. I am typing out that passage here and I hope my fellow Catholics are also blessed and amazed. And I hope that perhaps MacDaddy and Fair Lady will be able to acknowledge at least that perhaps some valuable traditions of our Lord were thrown out in the Reformation (and the multiplying and ever-evolving reformations that followed the big one). Here it is, from page 151. It is part of a discussion on the physical worship of Catholics:

…Most Evangelicals remember how Philip met an Ethiopian eunuch on the road to Gaza. The eunuch believed and was baptized, and the two went their separate ways (Acts 8:26-39). The eunuch went to what is now Sudan. Historically reliable tradition tells us that there was only one other early missionary contact with this part of Africa - the apostle Matthew went there as a missionary…

…Because of the difficulty of traveling in that part of the world, there was no more outside Christian contact for about three hundred years. As Warren H. Carroll recounts in his history, when Christian missionaries again made the trip, they found that much of Christianity had been lost. One thing that struck the missionaries, however, was the the Africans knew how to make the sign of the cross. Given their isolation, there are only two reasonable explanations: either, during the short time they interacted, Philip taught the eunuch to cross himself and the eunuch then passed the practice on; or Matthew himself taught the Africans directly. Either way, the practice of making the sign of the cross can be traced direcly back to the apostles themselves…

…Of course, it might be said that the Bible never teaches us to make the sign of the cross. True. The practice actually appears to predate the writing of the New Testament. It was never wrtten about becuase it was never questioined. The early Christians believed in a harmoney between the physical and spiritual.

…And when I read that I feel the amazed with certain knowledge that it was Jesus Himself who taught the Apostles - because clearly He came to establish a living breathing* Church*, not a book (we get the book, the infallible book, through the Church He established).

…The Sign of the Cross, then, is obviously was something Jesus taught, because the Apostles clearly weren’t making things up! He taught it because He wanted us to have it. It is another one of His rich gifts to us, given to us through the Church and preserved through the Church. It is another of the ordinary ways He imparts extrordinary graces.

…http://tirecovers.net/images/pink rose.jpg…

 

[cecilia97]

…

My question to others on this thread: Have you noticed this behavior in MacDaddy and do you agree with it ?

We all know we are sinners, but to say a person sins because he disagrees with you is not kind. I’m sure MacDaddy is genuinely concerned for Catholics’ souls, and we welcome prayers to God on our behalf from all our Christian brothers and sisters. But I never saw anyone “converted” because they were insulted as some have been on this thread. Personal attacks are NOT a good “witness”.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I truly have given adequate scripture that speaks of itself as sufficient living truth. If it doesn’t suffice for you, I’m sorry, but there isn’t much more I can do. It is obvious that the two of us don’t get the same message from those verses. I have switched back to the main topic at hand and plan to stay there.

I am discussing the main topic at hand. I have been all along.

One of your points is that you won’t believe something about Mary unless it is specifically mentioned in scripture.

Yet you expect us to believe things nowhere found in scripture.

That, Fair Lady, is not fair.

You tell me to base all my beliefs on scripture, but when I go to scripture to find the things you’re telling me, I don’t see them. That is why I have asked you to provide the scriptural references. Doctrine is far too important for me to base it on nothing but your personal, fallible opinion.

You have not even begun to give me “adequate scripture” when the scripture you cite does not so much as mention some of the things you ask us to believe. Once again you are asking me to believe something just on your say so, this time your opinion that the scripture you have given is adequate.

In posts 53, 61, 67, 78, 83, and 312 you were asked to provide scripture to back up things you ask us to believe. (LittleSoldier has provided some examples in post 158.) Either provide the scripture or stop claiming everything we believe must be found in scripture. THIS IS NOW MY EIGHTH REQUEST.

Here are just four of the many statements you’ve made for which you have provided no scripture whatsoever:

(1) Where does it state in the Bible “that had Mary died ahead of Him, He would not have prayed to her because He taught us to pray to His father?”

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

(2) Where does it state in the Bible that “Had He wanted us to pray to Mary, I’m sure He would have told us?”

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

(3) Where in the Bible does it state “There is nothing of significance in spiritual matters that should be sought after outside of Scripture?”

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

(4) Where in the Bible does it state “As far as books go, there is no other source that we can go to outside of Scripture that is absolutely reliable for truth?”

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

(A thank you to LittleSoldier for these questions.)

If you cannot provide the scripture after this, my eighth request, I will have to assume those things you stated and expect us to believe are nowhere in scripture (or else you are just playing games with me, and I don’t believe you’re that kind of person).

I therefore challenge you that as a Christian, you should be consistent and fair by admitting that not everything you believe is found in scripture. This shouldn’t be a problem for you, since ***you have already admitted that you believe you have the correct books in the Bible based not upon scripture but upon faith. ***Since at least one of your beliefs is not based upon the Bible, it therefore follows that not all your beliefs are based upon the Bible.

Now, do you have the honesty to admit that? Or are you still going to insist that all our beliefs must be found in the Bible even though it’s painfully obvious not all of yours are?

 

[LittleSoldier]

The scripture verses I provided have to do with reasons for using scripture as our final authority on all matters. They have nothing to do with praying to Mary, nor did I intend for them to have anything to do with praying to Mary. But if you were to study even those few references I gave you, it would show that scripture is superior over anything that man could possibly write . Because scripture comes from God, we can depend on it for absolute truth because God cannot lie. We may not be able to find a verse that says, “Thou shalt use scripture as final authority in all matters”, but as hown even by those few verses, there is plenty of evidence that it is wise for us to use the Bible as final aurhority.

Am I not allowed to discuss scripture? By doing so, you keep accusing me of “adding to scripture”. We find examples in the Bible that it is acceptable to reason out of scripture.

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:19
And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Please read my post again. Did you see the part where I stated that I had bolded the sentences where you have added to Scripture? If you check the areas I bolded you will see that I never bolded any part of the Scripture you provided. The areas I bolded are in your comments about those Scripture passages.This is where you added to Scripture–you added an idea of your own that is not in the passage. I don’t mean you actually added to the text. I mean you added something that is not in the text but which you expect us to believe. Of course you are allowed to use Scripture and you are allowed to explain what you feel Scripture passages mean. But when you state things like “I’m sure Jesus would…” (which is not found in the post replied to here but in earlier posts - you have done this several times) you are adding something that absolutely is not in the Scripture passage and cannot be deduced from the Scripture passages if you believe in sola scriptura.

Is Scripture really better than anything man could possibly write?? Absolutely - there is no doubt about that!!

Does Scripture really come from God?? Absolutely!! The Bible wasn’t even written by men. It was penned by men guided by God.

Can we reply on Scripture for absolute truth?? Of course!! God does not lie - He is not up in heaven playing with us like a sadistic child with an ant farm! God loves us and wants us to understand Him; even more than this, He wants us to choose to be with Him and to live with Him in heaven through time infinite.

There are a few problems that occur when even just two people start comparing Scripture passages and what those passages mean. What if two people (let’s call them John and Nancy), going by the Bible alone and interpreting as they feel guided by the Holy Spirit have two conflicting interpretations about a scripture passage? Is John’s interpretation correct and Nancy’s interpretation incorrect or vice versa? Are both incorrect?

You provided comments about the Scripture passages in your last post. I think you did this in order to explain your personal interpretations of those passages. But do you see that another person reading the Bible might disagree with you on the meaning? Who, then, has the authority to decide who is correct? In my example, both John and Nancy go by the Bible and are interpreting it as they feel guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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