An unnerving but necessary question

[jcaz]

so you follow someone whom you believed to be a prophet who had sexual intercourse with a girl who was just 9 years old?

YES. Of course we do.

In the same way, we follow many of the prophets in the bible who had many wives. Why? Because although you may disrespect the prophets of your religion, we respect them. And because although you may think that your “high and mighty moral code” is better than that of a prophet, we realize that our moral code is not even remotely close to the standard of the prophets. We as Muslims do not arrogantly think that we live to a better standard than the prophets.

Yes, with confidence, we follow a prophet who had intercourse with a nine year old.

 

[r.gonzales]

jcaz:

I am not shy to tell you that polytheism is morally allowed, as it was practiced by not only Muhammad, but by MANY of the biblical prophets.

slip of the “tongue”?

 

[Booklover]

jcaz:

YES. Of course we do.

In the same way, we follow many of the prophets in the bible who had many wives. Why? Because although you may disrespect the prophets of your religion, we respect them. And because although you may think that your “high and mighty moral code” is better than that of a prophet, we realize that our moral code is not even remotely close to the standard of the prophets. We as Muslims do not arrogantly think that we live to a better standard than the prophets.

Yes, with confidence, we follow a prophet who had intercourse with a nine year old.

Didn’t he have enough wives already that he had to lust after a child? He was an outright PEDOPHILE!

He was probably mad as some people seem to think! He had a Jewish man assassinated simply for writing poetry against Muslims! From the last Jewish tribe he had expelled, from 600 to 900 men were beheaded and the women and children sold into slavery all by by Mohammed’s orders.

On one occasion, the “prophet” and his companions were looking for the hidden treasure of a conquered tribe and he had a man who was supposed to know where the treasure was brutally tortured and beheaded!

Upon entering Mecca, a number of individuals were ordered to be killed by the “prophet” without any immunity. The “crimes” commited by the majority of these people were making “satirical songs” against Mohammed or having insulted him during his ministry in Mecca. These are only a few examples of “assassinations” ordered by your “prophet”. And this is the man you consider to be a “model for all mankind”?

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

Didn’t he have enough wives already that he had to lust after a child? He was an outright PEDOPHILE!

you expose your ignorance and just how little you know of the man who Allah sent to this world as your prophet. had you taken the time to read about his life instead of parroting whatever trash you’ve learned from those hostile to islam, you would have known that aa’ishah was prophet muhammad’s third wife. his first was khadeejah bint khuwailid who was his only wife until she died. after her death he married sawdah bint zam’ah. this marriage took place in the 10th year of his prophethood. he then married aa’ishah a year after his marriage to sawdah, but the marriage was not completed until 3 years after that. which makes the total time he spent with only one wife more than 14 years.

Allah has given men the right to marry up to four women, with prophet muhammad being an exception to that. however, had the limit of four applied to him, if your vile slanders were true, and prophet muhammad was indeed a lustful man, then surely he would have excercised this God-given right a lot sooner than he did! aa’ishah was the first woman he married while being married to another.

read, you might learn something: the prophetic household

Booklover:

He was probably mad as some people seem to think! He had a Jewish man assassinated simply for writing poetry against Muslims! From the last Jewish tribe he had expelled, from 600 to 900 men were beheaded and the women and children sold into slavery all by by Mohammed’s orders.

probably? nothing but speculation and conjecture. you have no proof to back up your slanderous accusations.

Booklover:

On one occasion, the “prophet” and his companions were looking for the hidden treasure of a conquered tribe and he had a man who was supposed to know where the treasure was brutally tortured and beheaded!

bring your proof if you are truthful.

Booklover:

Upon entering Mecca, a number of individuals were ordered to be killed by the “prophet” without any immunity. The “crimes” commited by the majority of these people were making “satirical songs” against Mohammed or having insulted him during his ministry in Mecca. These are only a few examples of “assassinations” ordered by your “prophet”.

again, bring your proof if you are truthful.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

you expose your ignorance and just how little you know of the man who Allah sent to this world as your prophet. had you taken the time to read about his life instead of parroting whatever trash you’ve learned from those hostile to islam, you would have known that aa’ishah was prophet muhammad’s third wife. his first was khadeejah bint khuwailid who was his only wife until she died. after her death he married sawdah bint zam’ah. this marriage took place in the 10th year of his prophethood. he then married aa’ishah a year after his marriage to sawdah, but the marriage was not completed until 3 years after that. which makes the total time he spent with only one wife more than 14 years.

Allah has given men the right to marry up to four women, with prophet muhammad being an exception to that. however, had the limit of four applied to him, if your vile slanders were true, and prophet muhammad was indeed a lustful man, then surely he would have excercised this God-given right a lot sooner than he did! aa’ishah was the first woman he married while being married to another.

read, you might learn something: the prophetic household

probably? nothing but speculation and conjecture. you have no proof to back up your slanderous accusations.

bring your proof if you are truthful.

again, bring your proof if you are truthful.

My source is the book “Answering Islam” by Norman L. Geisler and Abdul Saleeb which is not any “Jack Chick” kind of book! Those examples of support for violence in Mohammed’s life mentioned in the book came from the earliest biography of Mohammed written by Ibn Ishaq in the second century of the Islamic era and was later edited by Ibn Hisham in the third century. This work was translated into English under the title “The Life of Muhammad” by A. Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press in 1955.

Whether Aisha was his third wife or whatever does not deny the fact that he was a pedophile!

In the Judeo-Christian tradition polygamy is considered morally wrong. Although God permitted it along with other human frailties and sins, he never commanded it! That monogamy is God’s standard for the human race is clear from the beginning when God created a monogamous marriage between Adam and Eve. This God established example of one woman for one man, was the general practice of the human race (Gen. 4:1) until interrupted by sin (gen. 4:23. The law of Moses clearly commands “You shall not multiply wives” (Deut. 17:17)

God never commanded polygamy–like divorce, he only permitted it because of the hardness of their hearts (Deut.24:1;Matt.19:18.) Every polygamist in the Bible including David and Solomon (1Chron. 14:3) paid dearly for their sins. God hates polygamy as he hates divorce since it destroys his ideal for the family!

There are other reputable books out there like “The Life and Religion of Mohammed” by Rev. J.L. Menezes where he explains that "Mohammed posed as the apostle of God, the seal of the prophets;as the destroyer of idolatry; as preacher of one true God and the reformer of morals: while his life is marked by innumerable marriages; and great licentiousness, deeds of rapine, warfare, conquests, unmerciful butcheries, all the time invoking God’s holy name to sanction his evils deeds, ordering prayers and alms deeds and at the same time propagating Islam everywhere by fire and sword!

Maybe it’s time you read some real biographies of your “prophet” instead of the propaganda look-through-rose-colored glasses fairytales you’ve been brainwashed with!

And as for his being sent to be my “prophet” I don’t believe for one minute that the Angel Gabriel appeared to him! I don’t stake my salvation on the so-called “private revelations” of anyone. My salvation comes from Jesus Christ who was also sent to be your savior and whom you continue to deny!

 

[Writer]

jcaz:

Very well stated.

This is a problem with many religions today. Instead of basing many of their religious/moral views on their respective holy book, they take the “moral views” of society and dictate them to their holy book. I cannot speak for Christianity, but for Islaam, our moral views are taken from the Quraan and the Sunnah of prophet Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam, and there is no one who needs to be shy of this. I am not shy to tell you that polytheism is morally allowed, as it was practiced by not only Muhammad, but by MANY of the biblical prophets. And for someone to come here and say “all prophets were sinners and therefore this was a sin”, HOW DO YOU KNOW? God sent the prophets as EXAMPLES. You know, this is one of the many appealing things about Islaam. We respect and hold the prophets in places of honor. I cannot understand this ARROGANCE to say that “all those prophets sinned and that’s why that had multiple wives and concubines.” The prophets were NOT pimps, as some of you like to describe them. They upheld THE HIGHEST MORAL STANDARD, higher than you or I could dream of. It sickens me to see how a Catholic can seem to place himself and his “amazing moral code” over that of a Prophet. A’uuthu billaahi.

So back to the topic. As Muslims, we do not take society’s “high moral code” (sarcasm intended) and use that as a medium through which to understand the Quraan. Rather we take the moral code of the Quraan and use that as a medium to understand right and wrong in society.

Let’s state that again, because that may have gone in one ear and out the other:

It is permissible to have sexual relations with a woman once she has begun menstruating. Menstruation is the sign for the beginning of child bearing years. Women, hundreds, and especially thousands, of years ago, were married much younger than today, and this is no doubt due to the lower life expectancy. Surely, if life expectancy was much lower, one would expect that the “stages” of one’s life would also be shorter also. So if it is “acceptable” according to today’s “high standards” to be married at 18 and life expectancy is roughly 80ish. So if life expectancy is 1/2 that, one would not expect men or women to wait until half of their life is over to marry.

So because of our longer life expectancies, and because of many other cultural/society influences, children are less and less mature at older ages. Why is this? I do not have all the answers. But everyone will agree that a 10 year old 100 years was much more mature than a 10 year old today. And that is only 100 years ago, so what about 1000 or 2000 years ago?

Bottom line, 'Aaisha was menstruating when the marriage was consummated, and according to Islaam, that is the sign that allows for sexual relations to take place with a woman. It is not for you or I to use our “high standards” to dictate what is true or false about our religion.

And lastly, there are many narrations regarding the marriage of 'Aaisha, but the authentic narrations state she was married at 6 and the marriage consummated at 9. And there is no reason to be shy of this. Refer to the link that my brother gonzales gave earlier for more information.

I’m sorry, but child rape is child rape. End of story and end of rationalizations.

 

[mercygate]

twiztedseraph:

Thank you for your kind replies, I do hope you know I asked sincerely from curiosity. I’m just wondering whether people would consider this moral in any circumstance.

Considering that a marriage might be contracted but not consummated, and considering that the bride’s opinion in the matter was never of much consequence (or the groom’s either in many cultures), this is hardly stranger than the marriages arranged by European nobility for their two-year-olds.

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

My source is the book “Answering Islam” by Norman L. Geisler and Abdul Saleeb which is not any “Jack Chick” kind of book! Those examples of support for violence in Mohammed’s life mentioned in the book came from the earliest biography of Mohammed written by Ibn Ishaq in the second century of the Islamic era and was later edited by Ibn Hisham in the third century. This work was translated into English under the title “The Life of Muhammad” by A. Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press in 1955.

just as i thought. jack chick, slave of the cross (which is what abdul-saleeb means) or craig winn… doesn’t matter. they’re all hostile towards islam and spread lies and misconceptions about it, its beliefs and the prophet who was sent with it.

as for ibn ishaaq’s seerah, ibn ishaaq’s biography of prophet muhammad contains many errors due to the fact that he included many weak and unverifiable narrations. ibn hishaam’s biography of prophet muhammad falls under the same judgement. so guillaume’s so-called “translation” is not to be relied upon. ibn ishaaq was declared a mudallis (swindler) by the scholars of hadeeth. this was a title given to narrators who would leave out the name of the narrator they heard from due to a weakness that narrator had in order to strengthen the chain of narrators he was narrating with. many of ibn ishaaq’s narrations are of this type, unless he explicitly says that he heard the narration from a certain individual. if you want to see the status of ibn ishaaq’s seerah in the sight of qualified muslim scholars, i suggest you read the following: ibn ishaaq’s seerah as a book of hadeeth as well as the sub-sections that follow it.

Booklover:

Whether Aisha was his third wife or whatever does not deny the fact that he was a pedophile!

perhaps he is according to your ideals, but according to both divine definition and according to biological facts, a female is considered a woman the moment she reaches the age of menstration. this is also what was held to be true in judeo-christian traditions as proven in the article i linked to by abdur-rahmaan squires (i suggest you read it if you haven’t already).

Booklover:

In the Judeo-Christian tradition polygamy is considered morally wrong. Although God permitted it along with other human frailties and sins, he never commanded it! That monogamy is God’s standard for the human race is clear from the beginning when God created a monogamous marriage between Adam and Eve. This God established example of one woman for one man, was the general practice of the human race (Gen. 4:1) until interrupted by sin (gen. 4:23. The law of Moses clearly commands “You shall not multiply wives” (Deut. 17:17)

God never commanded polygamy–like divorce, he only permitted it because of the hardness of their hearts (Deut.24:1;Matt.19:18.) Every polygamist in the Bible including David and Solomon (1Chron. 14:3) paid dearly for their sins. God hates polygamy as he hates divorce since it destroys his ideal for the family!

perhaps this innovated belief of yours is why so many christian men fall into fornication and adultery. all of what you cite here just adds to the fact that your current scriptures are the work of man, not of Allah. to say that blessed and noble prophets such as abraham (who had two wives), david and solomon (each of whom had many more than prophet muhammad had in total as well as a number of concubines) were all committing fornication by having more than one wife is nothing short of blasphemous - Allah’s refuge is sought from such vile and repugnant slanderous accusations against His honourable and noble prophets and messengers!

con’t…

 

[r.gonzales]

…

Booklover:

There are other reputable books out there…

Maybe it’s time you read some real biographies of your “prophet” instead of the propaganda look-through-rose-colored glasses fairytales you’ve been brainwashed with!

reputable books filled with lies and errors? yeah, sure… . have you ever thought of the sources that these “real biographers” took their perverted interpretations of what occurred from? perhaps it is you who should be taking off your rose-coloured glasses. if you recall, i’m a convert to islam… i searched for the truth and found it in islam. i wasn’t force fed lies and fairytales like you were.

Booklover:

And as for his being sent to be my “prophet” I don’t believe for one minute that the Angel Gabriel appeared to him! I don’t stake my salvation on the so-called “private revelations” of anyone. My salvation comes from Jesus Christ who was also sent to be your savior and whom you continue to deny!

i don’t deny that jesus son of mary was the messiah. i fully accept that fact. i have faith in him, the revelation he was sent with and the message he preached - which was to worship Allah alone without ascribing partners or equals to Him. the only one rejecting anything here is you and whoever else rejects the prophethood of one of Allah’s chosen slaves.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

…

reputable books filled with lies and errors? yeah, sure… . have you ever thought of the sources that these “real biographers” took their perverted interpretations of what occurred from? perhaps it is you who should be taking off your rose-coloured glasses. if you recall, i’m a convert to islam… i searched for the truth and found it in islam. i wasn’t force fed lies and fairytales like you were.

How do you know that those books are filled with lies and errors?

i don’t deny that jesus son of mary was the messiah. i fully accept that fact. i have faith in him, the revelation he was sent with and the message he preached - which was to worship Allah alone without ascribing partners or equals to Him. the only one rejecting anything here is you and whoever else rejects the prophethood of one of Allah’s chosen slaves.

Jesus never said any of that!

 

[exoflare]

That’s just another “clever” trap, don’t fall for it. If you deny the statement it will be noted “Ah, so you Christians DO ascribe partners to God!” and if you agree it will of course be taken as an affirmation of Muslim, er, “doctrine”.

The not-so-subtle tactic here is trying to imply that the only conceivable type of monotheism is THEIR brand of monotheism, and that Jesus being God MUST mean there is more than one God. They want you to overlook that little implication when you answer.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

twiztedseraph:

Thank you for your kind replies, I do hope you know I asked sincerely from curiosity. I’m just wondering whether people would consider this moral in any circumstance.

Salaam Friend twiztedseraph;
I am convinced you asked out of curiosity, but let me ask you the following question: in a society, who fixes the age of marriage and on what basis? Many thanks.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[vego]

mercygate:

Considering that a marriage might be contracted but not consummated, and considering that the bride’s opinion in the matter was never of much consequence (or the groom’s either in many cultures), this is hardly stranger than the marriages arranged by European nobility for their two-year-olds.

European nobility has nothing to do with establishing doctrine and they were not prophets. Christ and muhammed are people who millions base their lives on. Why struggle to defend child rape. 9 years old is a wrong at any time in history especially by someone who claims to be a prophet of God. Think about a 4th grader! Come on!

 

[meedo]

No school

No sports

No University

No work

No Nothing

What exactly doesn she wait for if i may ask?

so as soon as a girl reaches puberty she marries . Thats her Job back then .

Now its different . Plus she had many suiters before the Prophet PBUH . It wasnt somthing strange . The proof of that that he was never critisized of that by his enemies and the enemies of his religion. If it wasnt the norm then they surly would critisise. Plus how old when Mary Got pregnant ? 13 ?.

Did Jesus set the limit of mariage age or moses ?

Peace

 

[Magicsilence]

Plus how old when Mary Got pregnant ? 13 ?.

I dont really get what you are saying, girls get pregnant NOW at 13. Besides, conceive at 13 means a birth around fourteen. Hardly strange even by modern standards.

What i fail to believe is that with all the women out there, mohammed decided on a 6 year old and you think its ok!

My little brother is 9, and im telling you the girls in his year are children, by any standard and at any point through time, whether or not one of them had early puberty does not and will never make it alright to have sex with them.

And for your info, this is what a 9 year old girl looks like.

img142.imageshack.us/img142/9407/geniuschild6hw.jpg

It makes me feel sick that a girl so precious and young was ravaged by a fully grown man, and remember this is keeping in mind that we adhere to your oldest possible scenario. Mohammed was a fighter, a military genius, probably tall and strong, at what point did you convince yourselves it would be okay for him to take a 6-9 year old to bed, and somehow you OK it.

If we keep in mind that the age of the child comes down even by one or two years, it just becomes pure evil.

 

[Desert_Father]

So much heat, so little light. What does this do to advance the truth of God’s grace by, in, and through his own person incarnate, Jesus Christ? Over the years, as an historic-redactive analist, I’ve found myself in diolog with Islam countless times. It’s a fools game. Leave them to their raving. That the Koran can be indesputably shown, historically, literarily, and scientifically to be a fraud, redacted from Arian Christian, Jewish Kabalistic, and primative Arab sources, by the sultan, after Mohamad’s death means nothing to them. But lets give the illeterate caravan guard and desert briggand his due. Muhamad was no more a child molester than meedeval European royalty was. They hardly waited for their kids to be conceived before"marrying" them off to cement alliances.
As to Chuck Chict and his “Tracts”: He’s even worse. Totally uneducated and hate filled. I’d say that he is a prime argument for bringing back that ancient tradition of “auto de fait” or burning herritics at the stake, but I deplore violence. He should be silenced. We people of God really need to clean up our own act before we take on Satin among those he has mislead.

 

[Faith101]

Magicsilence:

I dont really get what you are saying, girls get pregnant NOW at 13. Besides, conceive at 13 means a birth around fourteen. Hardly strange even by modern standards.

What i fail to believe is that with all the women out there, mohammed decided on a 6 year old and you think its ok!

My little brother is 9, and im telling you the girls in his year are children, by any standard and at any point through time, whether or not one of them had early puberty does not and will never make it alright to have sex with them.

And for your info, this is what a 9 year old girl looks like.

img142.imageshack.us/img142/9407/geniuschild6hw.jpg

It makes me feel sick that a girl so precious and young was ravaged by a fully grown man, and remember this is keeping in mind that we adhere to your oldest possible scenario. Mohammed was a fighter, a military genius, probably tall and strong, at what point did you convince yourselves it would be okay for him to take a 6-9 year old to bed, and somehow you OK it.

If we keep in mind that the age of the child comes down even by one or two years, it just becomes pure evil.

Aisha had already reached the age of puberty when she got married… I doubt the girl that you have posted a picture of, did.

i dont know why the fuss about this. Aisha was a woman when she got married, not even the most wicked and sly of opponents of the Prophet (pbuh) ever criticized him for it.

 

[marlo]

OK… tell that to your country and you’ll be in jail

r.gonzales:

i follow someone who was a prophet and messenger sent to mankind who married and had relations with someone who was physically mature enough to bear children, biologically making her a woman - regardless of what your, or today’s social norms state.

 

[r.gonzales]

marlo:

OK… tell that to your country and you’ll be in jail

what kind of stupid comment is that? like i’d really be put in jail for telling “my country” i follow prophet muhammad…

 

[Joe_Monahan]

This thread is closed.