anal sex between married couples

[secondeve]

One thing that has become very evident during my analysis of various Catholic issues is that the Magisterium typically doesn’t go out of their way make infallible statements on matters that don’t have Scriptural basis. The “ban” on this type of sex as foreplay between married couples doesn’t have Scriptural basis, which is likely no pronouncement of the ban has been made by the Magesterium.

Are there ANY infallible pronouncements on sexual issues?

 

[Debora123]

I can hardly believe the Catholic Church would condone any of it or give dispensations to Catholic Married couples to explore any of it in what ever fashion.

Perfect Sodomy? What a farce!

Well apparently, believe it or not, they did.

The book was used by priests in the confessional to determine sinfulness of various actions, and it clearly states that anal sex is not a sin if performed in accordance to Church standards.

“Perfect Sodomy” is not a farce. It is the term used in Moral Theology to differentiate complete anal sex to anal sex just as foreplay.

 

[Debora123]

Absolutely. Personally, I think we should be very carefull in handing out judgements in a matter in which solemn infallible pronouncements are thin on the ground, if not non-existent. Thank you for being tolerant.

It’s the only way to be

I’ve been a victim of attacks like this before (without church basis) and it is NOT fun.

 

[Debora123]

Respectfully; your attempt to support the Fr. Herbert Jone’s “Moral Theology” of Perfect Sodomy in Marriage is outrageously and morally controversial.

Why? Is there any type of Catholic source saying we should not support that part of the book? Or is it just you taking it upon yourself to make that claim?

Any form of Sodomy practiced by any gender married or single is nothing but Evil.

…Even if used as foreplay??

I’ve asked for Catholic doctrine that supports this claim you make and have received none.

In cross referencing statements made in your other thread Sodomy intrinsically Evil?; I see a lot of secular humanism and moral relativism being used in an attempt to morally legitimize Anal Sex/Sodomy in a Catholic Marriage.

I didn’t see any of the sort. I saw posters trying to make logical conclusions based on what was given to them by the Church.

 

[Warrior1979]

Are there ANY infallible pronouncements on sexual issues?

I’m not sure what you are looking for by the wording of the question. Are you referring to a specific statement by the Pope, or simply the opinion of the Magesterium which fall under morals and thus infallible?

 

[secondeve]

I’m not sure what you are looking for by the wording of the question. Are you referring to a specific statement by the Pope, or simply the opinion of the Magesterium which fall under morals and thus infallible?

I am looking for clearly infallible statements by a Pope or Church Council. I don’t believe there are any. If I am right, perhaps people should not be so dogmatic in their condemnation of some sexual practices.

 

[Warrior1979]

I am looking for clearly infallible statements by a Pope or Church Council. I don’t believe there are any. If I am right, perhaps people should not be so dogmatic in their condemnation of some sexual practices.

Are you stating the moral issues addressed, in say, the Catechism and Human Vitae, aren’t infallible? If not, I’ve just learned something new.

 

[centurionguard]

CG, those are terms used in Moral Theology.

“Perfect Sodomy”, in essence, refers to completed sodomy, sodomy where the copulative act is completed.

“Imperfect Sodomy” referes to cases where anal intercourse is started, but the act is not completed.

What exactly is your issue with Fr. Heribert Jone’s “Moral Theology”. It was the world wide standard Seminary text book on the sinfullness of individual action for the early to mid 20th Century?

It is indexed by particular act and then describes the sinfullness, or non sinfullness of the act, along with any mitigating factors.

I am certainly NOT a proponet of doing what was described.

But the fact remains, if someone went into the confessional during the 20’s to 60’s just about anywhere in the world and confessed the act described under 'imperfect sodomy" with their spouse; the priest, if he did not remember it from his Moral Theology class, would have looked it up in his in confessional copy of Jone’s and told the penitent what they did was not a sin.

While I personally think that anal penetration as an act of foreplay is abosolutely, positively disgusting and unhygenic, I have to concur that the Church does not find it an act against Natural Law.

Then my conclusion here given your last statement, I can only say that Catholic Married couples who want to play with fire exercising their own moral right to engage in Anal Sex during Fore-play and later months, years contract terminal HIV, they’ve received their just reward for playing and getting burned by fire.

Another point I want to reiterate in a previous post I made reference to this thread pertaining to the physiological make-up of the rectum itself aside from bacteria.

What’s to stop a husband from ejaculating in the rectum of his wife in the heat of foreplay due to increased sensitivity? What moral laws are broken when he waste his seed which to me would be similar to masturbation?

Final point and this is as sick and disgusting as it gets, when wives take the foreplay role of pegging their husbands anally to pleasure their prostate?

Very reminiscent of Homosexual, Bisexual activity if you ask me.

Given the gross lack of Morality in today’s world I think its far better to adopt Catholic Moral Law over lacking implements of secularized Natural Law.

Peace
Chris

 

[Debora123]

Then my conclusion here given your last statement, I can only say that Catholic Married couples who want to play with fire exercising their own moral right to engage in Anal Sex during Fore-play and later months, years contract terminal HIV, they’ve received their just reward for playing and getting burned by fire.

Contract terminal HIV?? We are speaking here of Catholic Married Couples performing anal sex as foreplay. You’re not going to get HIV from your own spouse just because you performed anal sex, unless the spouse is HIV positive - in which case it can be transferred through regular intercourse as well. I’m afraid you are making no logical sense. And why would it be a “just reward” if what they are doing isn’t wrong? Justice refers to getting what you deserve for doing something wrong.

Another point I want to reiterate in a previous post I made reference to this thread pertaining to the physiological make-up of the rectum itself aside from bacteria.

 

[Debora123]

Are you stating the moral issues addressed, in say, the Catechism and Human Vitae, aren’t infallible? If not, I’ve just learned something new.

She is talking about in reference to sexual practices between husband and wife.

 

[Newbie2]

The Bible states very clear that you can’t sodomize anyone (in any situation).

It is immoral to substitute another body part or object for either the male organ or the female organ.

So thus oral stimulation on the man is morally licit as long as the mouth does not take the place of female organ.ct.

So why would this not apply to anal foreplay?

Any form of Sodomy practiced by any gender married or single is nothing but Evil.

Peace
Chris

Oral sex is included in most definitions of sodomy, no? Does the Church have a different definition of sodomy?

Then my conclusion here given your last statement, I can only say that Catholic Married couples who want to play with fire exercising their own moral right to engage in Anal Sex during Fore-play and later months, years contract terminal HIV, they’ve received their just reward for playing and getting burned by fire.

And the risk of getting HIV from genital sex is less than with anal foreplay, particularly if during anal foreplay the couple uses a condom?

What’s to stop a husband from ejaculating in the rectum of his wife in the heat of foreplay due to increased sensitivity? What moral laws are broken when he waste his seed which to me would be similar to masturbation?

If it’s an “oops”, how is that different from oral or manual foreplay?

Final point and this is as sick and disgusting as it gets, when wives take the foreplay role of pegging their husbands anally to pleasure their prostate?

Very reminiscent of Homosexual, Bisexual activity if you ask me.

Which is by definition between two people of the same sex, no?

Peace
Chris

Contract terminal HIV?? We are speaking here of Catholic Married Couples performing anal sex as foreplay. You’re not going to get HIV from your own spouse just because you performed anal sex, unless the spouse is HIV positive - in which case it can be transferred through regular intercourse as well. I’m afraid you are making no logical sense. And why would it be a “just reward” if what they are doing isn’t wrong? Justice refers to getting what you deserve for doing something wrong.

Anal foreplay cannot be considered sinful just because the man might accidentally ejaculate in the wrong place. That can happen accidentally with ANY foreplay, and if it was completely accidental it wouldn’t be considered a sin.

Sure, disgusting in mine and your opinion, but we can’t sit here and say that something is intrinsically evil just because we personally think it’s disgusting. I think tuna is pretty disgusting, doesn’t mean it’s sinful. Some people are very aroused by anal stimulation. Who are we to judge their taste in sexual foreplay?

Actually, anal play is a heterosexual activity as well. A lot of straight men and women are into that stuff.

Agreed. But the issue here is the Church doesn’t have a moral law AGAINST this particular practice. And this has been proven here a number of times.

Beat me to it.

Tuna? Freudian?

Right, disgusting doesn’t necessarily mean immoral. Some people eat SPAM.

SPAM, SPAM, SPAM, SPAM… I’d almost rather engage in the aforementioned sexual foreplay than be forced to eat SPAM, Monte Python’s skit notwithstanding.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Anal sex can be safe if the couple go slowly, use plenty of artificial lubrication, and possibly even use a condom so that intercourse can finish vaginally in accordance with Church teaching. Or, if not using a condom, intimate wipes can be used.

As to the risks of incontinence - vaginal sex has its risk to - prolapse, HPV, infections, tearing. One of the obvious ‘risks’ is pregnancy, and a side effect of a natural birth is continence issues later in life. I spoke to a Consultant Urologist. He says out of all the women he has seen about continence issues, NONE of them had caesarians. Naturally, having a caesarian will remove the risk of incontinence due to childbirth - so completely, that he has never met a woman who had one with continence problems.

 

[secondeve]

Are you stating the moral issues addressed, in say, the Catechism and Human Vitae, aren’t infallible? If not, I’ve just learned something new.

If they ARE infallible, then please name the infallible source. If everything laid down by the Ordinary Magisterium is infallible, then what is the point of having a Solemn Magisterium?
The Church has made many mistakes. She can’t be infallible every time she speaks.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

where do people even get the idea to do stuff like this? honestly I think the big interest in this subject comes from the mainstreaming of pornography. Even if an individual who might be interested in trying this didn’t learn about it directly from porn themselves. I think there’s a general trend in our society toward open discussion and acceptance of all sorts of practices that were previously considered deviant and were primarily the domain of prostitutes and pornography. Now some guy sees something in a porn movie and they tell their buddies in the locker room, and they tell their buddies, and sooner or later you have people who wouldn’t dream of watching porn thinking it’s a good idea to try this with their wife?

 

[Debora123]

where do people even get the idea to do stuff like this? honestly I think the big interest in this subject comes from the mainstreaming of pornography. Even if an individual who might be interested in trying this didn’t learn about it directly from porn themselves. I think there’s a general trend in our society toward open discussion and acceptance of all sorts of practices that were previously considered deviant and were primarily the domain of prostitutes and pornography. Now some guy sees something in a porn movie and they tell their buddies in the locker room, and they tell their buddies, and sooner or later you have people who wouldn’t dream of watching porn thinking it’s a good idea to try this with their wife?

Some people are into anal play, just as others may be into oral stimulation or have a liking for a specific sex position. It’s a matter of personal preference.

 

[secondeve]

where do people even get the idea to do stuff like this? honestly I think the big interest in this subject comes from the mainstreaming of pornography. Even if an individual who might be interested in trying this didn’t learn about it directly from porn themselves. I think there’s a general trend in our society toward open discussion and acceptance of all sorts of practices that were previously considered deviant and were primarily the domain of prostitutes and pornography. Now some guy sees something in a porn movie and they tell their buddies in the locker room, and they tell their buddies, and sooner or later you have people who wouldn’t dream of watching porn thinking it’s a good idea to try this with their wife?

Having sex with the light on, having sex from behind, using a mirror, oral sex etc have all been regarded as “deviant” by repressed people who are ashamed and guilty about simply being sexual. Do we really want to go back to the “bad old days” when most men were unaware of the existence of the clitoris, jokes about sex were “dirty jokes” and Christians were notorious for being repressed? Anal play is normal and enjoyable for millions of people. If you don’t want to do it, that’s fine, but don’t put decent people (like me and my husband) down for something that some people are too guilt-ridden to enjoy. These are not the things we should be worrying about. Try worrying about those thousands of “chaste”, “celibate”,“modestly dressed” clergy who have shamefully abused young children. Whatever the causes of that disgraceful episode (and the cover-ups by Bishops, Cardinals and, apparently, the Pope himself) one of the reasons may well be the guilt-ridden way most Catholic children were brought up. Some of them with their twisted values ended up becoming Priests. Maybe if they had been taught to enjoy their bodies in a normal natural way they would not have raped young children.

 

[mwncheesehead]

Anal sex can be safe if the couple go slowly, use plenty of artificial lubrication, and possibly even use a condom so that intercourse can finish vaginally in accordance with Church teaching. Or, if not using a condom, intimate wipes can be used.

I’d agree that this would work for the couple who wants to follow Church teaching to keep the unitive and procreative aspects together in the sex act. There are issues to be worked out with anal sex because it’s not the way nature intended penetration to happen. If it’s used only as foreplay, if lubrication is used so as not to bring pain to the woman, if possibly a condom is used to avoid infection while engaging in this foreplay, and if in the end, the husband finishes in the vagina, then sure it’s a matter of foreplay preference.

 

[Warrior1979]

If they ARE infallible, then please name the infallible source. If everything laid down by the Ordinary Magisterium is infallible, then what is the point of having a Solemn Magisterium?
The Church has made many mistakes. She can’t be infallible every time she speaks.

So none of the moral and faith issues in these documents are infallible? Interesting…

 

[secondeve]

So none of the moral and faith issues in these documents are infallible? Interesting…

I’m not sure what you mean by “issues” being infallible. Only dogmas eg the Assumption can be infallible.

If you believe that there are infallible statements about sexual matters, please answer my question and tell me what they are (with references please ).

 

[Warrior1979]

I’m not sure what you mean by “issues” being infallible. Only dogmas eg the Assumption can be infallible.

If you believe that there are infallible statements about sexual matters, please answer my question and tell me what they are (with references please ).

Well, since the Catechism, Human Vitae, etc. aren’t infallible in your opinion, I guess there aren’t any.