Ancestry.com and the Mormon Church

[HonoraDominum]

Again I do not care what you believe. What happened to you in the past is your experience. I do not know it, so I cannot comment directly on it. However, because you did not feel as you believed you should have you now hoist your demands for evidence on any LDS poster. I can tell you that my experience is very different from yours. It took reading, prayer and I desire to believe but answers came.

Normally I would let my belief stand along with yours. Something is not right but I do not need to have all things reconciled today. I would normally be content to note differences of beliefs and let it lie. But since you are carrying this on let me use your standard for the LDS on the Catholic religion. Why not transubstantiation, since you brought it up? Show me evidence that transubstantiation actually occurs. I do not care about historical writings from John or any other apostle. Such writings could be twisted by you or falsified by others. I also will not accept writings by any believers after the apostles since they could suffer the same problems. What actual evidence do you have that transubstantiation occurs?

Ah, now, you see you’re asking me to prove faith. I’m asking you to prove history. There’s a difference. I can prove Jesus existed, and that he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. I can prove Jeruselem existed, and Bethlehem, and Gethsemene. These are the starting points of my faith - I can at least show that there is historical proof that the people and places of whose testimony I revere actually existed.

But then we get back to that whole “proof” thing you seem to get hung up on. You say show you the proof of transubstantiation, a mystery that we have been told by Saints that we will never fully comprehend even after our death and after we enter Heaven. I am asking no such difficult proof from you. I’m not asking you to prove the existance of the Three Nephites, or the truth of the miracles performed by Christ in 3 Nephi, or even proof of the First Vision or the restoration of the Priesthood. I’m simply asking you to provide a historical foundation to your beliefs as I know I have with my beliefs.

I’m simply asking you to give simple evidence that the Book of Mormon is not complete fiction. Faith is required for the supernatural aspects of my religion, not the natural and historical accounts of events and locations.

 

[Porknpie]

Janderich…
There are just so many claims by Mormonism…the main one…Christianity is corrupt and now only you Mormons aren’t. Then all the others that are brought up…and then the changing beliefs and practices…whatever is expedient…and the prophet says so…why?..how?..what for?..why are Mormon finances and earnings kept so private from its own members?.

The Mormons need to show us archeological evidence of the great battle in north america between two great civilizations. Show the bones of thousands if not millions of people, show horses before the spanish and show the chariots, even just one. The Mormon church could convert the world if they could be found but you can not find what does not exist. It is all a lie and fortunately, many Mormons are seeing the lie and turning away from the church. We continued to pray that you may have wisdom and understanding on the truth in Jesus Christ.

 

[TexanKnight]

I don’t think I have the desire or energy for a drawn out debate again on the Book of Mormon. Sufficeth to say that your “evidence” is not very credible. You have also left out the 12 witnesses and the statement from Emma herself. However, as I said before, a mountain of evidence would not convince you to seek the truth. Therefore, let me here provide only three quotes from each of the three witnesses about the Book of Mormon to round out the discussion.

First…the witnesses were either family or close friends…not convincing in a court of law. Second, Martin admitted that they only saw the book with “spiritual eyes”

:

 

[TexanKnight]

My concern is not really with your disbelief of the LDS religion. Nor do I seek to split you from truth you have found. Also, please know that what I say on this forum has nothing to do with you on a personal level.

My comments are simply in response to your posts on this thread. My concern is that you are holding a double standard. Seeking to follow a path of faith with the Catholic religion but demanding absolute proof from the LDS. If active faith is a tool for finding truth can’t it be used down whatever path one follows? If one path is wrong, will not the use of faith, combined with reason, find it out? If we disagree, but are both seeking truth by faith, might it be that one or both of us simply have not reached the end of the journey and so find ourselves on separate roads? Such an understanding would be consistent and allow mutual respect.

Ah…the typical LDS tactic…add words to make it seem unfair. No one has demanded “absolute proof” from LDS. I would be happy with SOME proof. I can walk the towns mentuioned in the Bible…where is Bountiful? where is Zerehamla?

You have ZERO evidence to support the Book of Mormon. Zero. I do not want absolute proof…but some CREDIBLE proof would be nice.

 

[Stephen168]

I agree that there must be both faith and reason. But when we focus on one and exclude the other we are on dangerous ground.

The Catholic Church relies on faith and reason, which means it excludes neither faith nor reason. The Mormon Church excludes reason which as you says is dangerous.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I agree that there must be both faith and reason. But when we focus on one and exclude the other we are on dangerous ground. The Lord gives evidence but often not what is expected. When we set expectations on what we must see in order to believe we are again on a dangerous ground. In the book of John we have this interesting example:

Yes, the evidence is there that shows Smith is not who he claimed to be.

The evidence is not there to show that he was who he claimed to be.

So there is no need to ignore the evidence because it doesn’t align with your expectations. It is not rational.

Why not tell everyone?

John 7

6 So Jesus said to them, “My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you.
7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil.d
8
You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled.

Wouldn’t this clear up the issue? Might many including the Pharisees and leaders of the Jews believe in him if he would have told them? Why did he not do so?

Janderich, this would be valid if you couldn’t read the whole of the NT and know for yourself. We are not left wondering now. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is complete.

We can also know for ourself, that Jesus built His Church, on the foundation of the Apostles and the prophets. He is the Capstone.

Eph 2

19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God,
20
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.
21
Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord;

So we see, what He built He built completely. It didn’t fall, but grew, and still grows.

You cannot provide evidence that what Jesus built, crumbled, leaving only pieces that can are recognizable as His building blocks, and nothing more.

Yet in this same scripture there is other evidence. The officers would not take him because, “never a man spake like this man.” Shouldn’t his words and deeds have been enough? Yet they were not.

Indeed, that would be the point of many of the stories of Jesus’ interactions with people. Some believed in Him, others did not. This doesn’t negate the evidence provided.

The guards in this passage recognized the evidence before them, that of Jesus’ words and deeds. Which were known, as you can see in John 7, the people in Galilee were looking for Jesus to join an important religious feast. One that was required of Jews. If He had not come to the feast, they would have viewed that as evidence that He was not who He said He is.

So you can see, Jesus answered their need, with evidence of Himself.

 

[Janderich]

Ah, now, you see you’re asking me to prove faith. I’m asking you to prove history. There’s a difference. I can prove Jesus existed, and that he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. I can prove Jeruselem existed, and Bethlehem, and Gethsemene. These are the starting points of my faith - I can at least show that there is historical proof that the people and places of whose testimony I revere actually existed.

But then we get back to that whole “proof” thing you seem to get hung up on. You say show you the proof of transubstantiation, a mystery that we have been told by Saints that we will never fully comprehend even after our death and after we enter Heaven. I am asking no such difficult proof from you. I’m not asking you to prove the existance of the Three Nephites, or the truth of the miracles performed by Christ in 3 Nephi, or even proof of the First Vision or the restoration of the Priesthood. I’m simply asking you to provide a historical foundation to your beliefs as I know I have with my beliefs.

I’m simply asking you to give simple evidence that the Book of Mormon is not complete fiction. Faith is required for the supernatural aspects of my religion, not the natural and historical accounts of events and locations.

So when I used your comparison from post #235 about transubstantiation and ask you to give me the same sort of proof that you have demanded from LDS posters you agree it is a mystery and will never fully be comprehended, interesting.

But not to be undone you now want to try and differentiate between matters of history and matters of faith. I’m afraid it is not so easy to differentiate the two. Faith is tied to history and history to faith. Is Moses parting the red sea a matter of history or faith? Is the fall of Adam and Eve history or faith? What of the resurrection, the most important event to ever transpire, is it history or simply a matter of faith? In all the previous examples you have little to no evidence beyond the written word. You must rely on the testimony of others. I of course agree with you that Jerusalem exists and that Jesus walked the earth. But the fact that Jesus walked the earth certainly does not mean he was the Son of God. Simply because Jerusalem exists, it does not follow that Christ atoned for our sins.

At some point evidence gives way to faith and searching with desire. At the end of the day I say, hold on to what you know to be true. But allow others that same right. This is all I am getting at.

 

[Janderich]

Ah…the typical LDS tactic…add words to make it seem unfair. No one has demanded “absolute proof” from LDS. I would be happy with SOME proof. I can walk the towns mentuioned in the Bible…where is Bountiful? where is Zerehamla?

You have ZERO evidence to support the Book of Mormon. Zero. I do not want absolute proof…but some CREDIBLE proof would be nice.

Here are the words from HonoraDominum post #200, “So as a starting point to help me acknowledge the basic truth of the existence of Moroni, point me to one single viable provable historical evidence, be it archeological or otherwise, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there actually was a Moroni at all.” Proof beyond a shadow of a doubt, seems pretty absolute to me.

Why do you say there is ZERO evidence. You might argue the point that there is no physical evidence but there is certainly written testimony. You may discount the testimony of the witnesses and the book itself but you cannot credibly say it does not exist.

 

[Janderich]

Yes, the evidence is there that shows Smith is not who he claimed to be.
The evidence is not there to show that he was who he claimed to be.
So there is no need to ignore the evidence because it doesn’t align with your expectations. It is not rational.

There is certainly evidence to show that Joseph Smith was who he said he was, in fact there is a whole book and testimony of many people who knew him and likewise received revelation from God. You of course may feel there is not enough evidence or that other evidence contradicts what I have just said but do not be naive, there is evidence.

John 7
6 So Jesus said to them, “My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you.
7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil.d
8 You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled.

Janderich, this would be valid if you couldn’t read the whole of the NT and know for yourself. We are not left wondering now. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is complete.

We can also know for ourself, that Jesus built His Church, on the foundation of the Apostles and the prophets. He is the Capstone.

Eph 2
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God,
20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.
21 Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord;

So we see, what He built He built completely. It didn’t fall, but grew, and still grows.
You cannot provide evidence that what Jesus built, crumbled, leaving only pieces that can are recognizable as His building blocks, and nothing more.

Certainly I can provide evidence that what Jesus built crumbled and was restored. You of course would not accept it and would provide contrary evidence.

Indeed, that would be the point of many of the stories of Jesus’ interactions with people. Some believed in Him, others did not. This doesn’t negate the evidence provided.

The guards in this passage recognized the evidence before them, that of Jesus’ words and deeds. Which were known, as you can see in John 7, the people in Galilee were looking for Jesus to join an important religious feast. One that was required of Jews. If He had not come to the feast, they would have viewed that as evidence that He was not who He said He is.

So you can see, Jesus answered their need, with evidence of Himself.

And so Christ answers the need today with evidence of himself as written in the Bible and Book of Mormon. It may not be the strictly physical evidence some feel they must have but it is the same evidence he gave 2000 years ago, his words and his deeds as recorded in the BofM. His coming to the Nephites after his resurrection and the teaching of His gospel.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There is certainly evidence to show that Joseph Smith was who he said he was, in fact there is a whole book and testimony of many people who knew him and likewise received revelation from God. You of course may feel there is not enough evidence or that other evidence contradicts what I have just said but do not be naive, there is evidence.

Certainly I can provide evidence that what Jesus built crumbled and was restored. You of course would not accept it and would provide contrary evidence.

Assertions are not evidence. Neither are ad-hominems.

And so Christ answers the need today with evidence of himself as written in the Bible…] It may not be the strictly physical evidence some feel they must have but it is the same evidence he gave 2000 years ago,

Yes, in the Church He established, on the prophets of whom prophesied of Him, and on the Apostles who he hand picked.

You reject what Christ established. Should that concern you?

his words and his deeds as recorded in the BofM. His coming to the Nephites after his resurrection and the teaching of His gospel.

Which you have no evidence of the existence of a group you call Nephites. No successors to this church of Nephites. Nothing. Just more assertions.

-The Book of Mormon has no evidence of being an ancient record.

• No evidence of a pre-Columbian Jewish culture in the Americas.
  -No evidence of a pre-Columbian Christian culture in the Americas.

 

[HonoraDominum]

So when I used your comparison from post #235 about transubstantiation and ask you to give me the same sort of proof that you have demanded from LDS posters you agree it is a mystery and will never fully be comprehended, interesting.

But not to be undone you now want to try and differentiate between matters of history and matters of faith. I’m afraid it is not so easy to differentiate the two. Faith is tied to history and history to faith. Is Moses parting the red sea a matter of history or faith? Is the fall of Adam and Eve history or faith? What of the resurrection, the most important event to ever transpire, is it history or simply a matter of faith? In all the previous examples you have little to no evidence beyond the written word. You must rely on the testimony of others. I of course agree with you that Jerusalem exists and that Jesus walked the earth. But the fact that Jesus walked the earth certainly does not mean he was the Son of God. Simply because Jerusalem exists, it does not follow that Christ atoned for our sins.

At some point evidence gives way to faith and searching with desire. At the end of the day I say, hold on to what you know to be true. But allow others that same right. This is all I am getting at.

On that we can agree - just because we know where Christ died does not explain or prove He was who He said he was. However, I think it’s very easy to separate history from faith. I know Mecca is the point that has historically and traditionally been knownn as the spot where Mohammed was born and the Quaran was written. I know that the Bodhi tree is where Budda is said to have received enlightenment. I know that the location of the battle described in the Bhagavad Gita was Kurukshetra in the modern state of Haryana in India. I know that the Red Sea is where Moses led the Jewish people when fleeing from the Israelites. These are four different historical sites for four different world religions. I completely believe that there were earthly, natural people who claimed to witness and experience the events described in these books. This takes no faith whatsoever, but at least is a starting ground for discussion.

I may not believe that my salvation lies with Islam, Buddhism, Judaism or Hinduism, but I cannot deny that these places exist and that there is historical evidence to prove that the events described happened in these places, or at least that centuries of tradition state that events took place in these places. I cannot say the same for a single site listed in the Book of Mormon.

You know what, I’ll make this easy. I don’t need a huge amount of historical and archeological evidence to prove the locations and people of the Book of Mormon, the same kind of archeological and historical proof available to validate the existance of sites mentioned in the Quoran, the Old and New Testaments, the Vinaya Pitaka, and the Bhagavad Gita. Just give me one. Just one, single, solitary piece of evidence that proves one single solitary site in the Book of Mormon.

Go ahead. I’m waiting.

 

[HonoraDominum]

Here are the words from HonoraDominum post #200, “So as a starting point to help me acknowledge the basic truth of the existence of Moroni, point me to one single viable provable historical evidence, be it archeological or otherwise, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there actually was a Moroni at all.” Proof beyond a shadow of a doubt, seems pretty absolute to me.

Why do you say there is ZERO evidence. You might argue the point that there is no physical evidence but there is certainly written testimony. You may discount the testimony of the witnesses and the book itself but you cannot credibly say it does not exist.

Oh, written testimony works for you? With witnesses? Then have I got a religion for you! There’s a man by the name of James Strang, the founder of the Strangites, who claimed to be the legitimate successor to Joseph Smith. Many of the original Eight Witnesses and a couple of the Three Witnesses, along with Emma Smith for a time, considered him to be the rightful heir to the leadership of the fledgling Mormon church. He too was given a revelation of metal plates left by the natives of this land, and had many witnesses who claimed that they were supernatural in origin. See for yourself some of these claims!

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, to whom this Book of the Law of the Lord shall come, that James J. Strang has the plates of the ancient Book of the Law of the Lord given to Moses, from which he translated this law, and has shown them to us. We examined them with our eyes, and handled them with our hands. The engravings are beautiful antique workmanship, bearing a striking resemblance to the ancient oriental languages; and those from which the laws in this book were translated are eighteen in number, about seven inches and three-eights wide, by nine inches long, occasionally embellished with beautiful pictures.

And we testify unto you all that the everlasting kingdom of God is established, in which this law shall be kept, till it brings in rest and everlasting righteousness to all the faithful.

SAMUEL GRAHAM,
SAMUEL P. BACON,
WARREN POST,
PHINEAS WRIGHT,
ALBERT N. HOSMER,
EBENEZER PAGE,
JEHIEL SAVAGE.

1.On the thirteenth day of September, 1845, we, Aaron Smith, Jirah B. Wheelan, James M. Van Nostrand, and Edward Whitcomb, assembled at the call of James J. Strang, who is by us and many others approved as a Prophet and Seer of God. He proceeded to inform us that it had been revealed to him in a vision that an account of an ancient people was buried in a hill south of White River bridge, near the east line of Walworth County; and leading us to an oak tree about one foot in diameter, told us that we would find it enclosed in a case of rude earthen ware under that tree at the depth of about three feet; requested us to dig it up, and charged us to so examine the ground that we should know we were not imposed upon, and that it had not been buried there since the tree grew. The tree was surrounded by a sward of deeply rooted grass, such as is usually found in the openings, and upon the most critical examination we could not discover any indication that it had ever been cut through or disturbed.

2.We then dug up the tree, and continued to dig to the depth of about three feet, where we found a case of slightly baked clay containing three plates of brass. On one side of one is a landscape view of the south end of Gardner’s prairie and the range of hills where they were dug. On another is a man with a crown on his head and a scepter in his hand, above is an eye before an upright line, below the sun and moon surrounded with twelve stars, at the bottom are twelve large stars from three of which pillars arise, and closely interspersed with them are seventy very small stars. The other four sides are very closely covered with what appear to be alphabetic characters, but in a language of which we have no knowledge.

3.The case was found imbedded in indurated clay so closely fitting it that it broke in taking out, and the earth below the soil was so hard as to be dug with difficulty even with a pickax. Over the case was found a flat stone about one foot wide each way and three inches thick, which appeared to have undergone the action of fire, and fell in pieces after a few minutes exposure to the air. The digging extended in the clay about eighteen inches, there being two kinds of earth of different color and appearance above it.

4.We examined as we dug all the way with the utmost care, and we say, with utmost confidence, that no part of the earth through which we dug exhibited any sign or indication that it had been moved or disturbed at any time previous. The roots of the tree stuck down on every side very closely, extending below the case, and closely interwoven with roots from other trees. None of them had been broken or cut away. No clay is found in the country like that of which the case is made.

5.In fine, we found an alphabetic and pictorial record, carefully cased up, buried deep in the earth, covered with a flat stone, with an oak tree one foot in diameter growing over it, with every evidence that the sense can give that it has lain there as long as that tree has been growing. Strang took no part in the digging, but kept entirely away from before the first blow was struck till after the plates were taken out of the case; and the sole inducement to our digging was our faith in his statement as a Prophet of the Lord that a record would thus and there be found.

AARON SMITH,
JIRAH B. WHEELAN,
J. M. VAN NOSTRAND,
EDWARD WHITCOMB

Even the “ancient” handwriting of the plates was similar to the samples of the writing that the Mormon church has claimed were actual characters from the original Golden Plates.

James J. Strang. “The Record of Rajah Manchou of Vorito.”
(Facsimile of the Brass Plates). Voree, Wisconsin Territory: 1845.
19.6 cm. x 10.6 cm. Broadside.



The Anthon Transcript fascimile - a sheet of paper, thought to be lost, upon which Joseph Smith copied sample “reformed Egyptian” characters from the plates of the Book of Mormon.

**Parenthetical sidenote: **This “reformed Egyptian” as featured on the Anthon Transcript was used on the cover of a special 1980 Gold Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics Book Of Mormon edition, currently available on eBay.

 

[RebeccaJ]

First…the witnesses were either family or close friends…not convincing in a court of law. Second, Martin admitted that they only saw the book with “spiritual eyes”

Third, a single author (probably Oliver Cowdery) wrote the testimonies and had the witnesses put their signatures, and oral confirmation, behind what he wrote for them. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but this would be called a conspiracy, not a testimony.)

timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/06/who-authored-the-three-witness-statement/

The witness statements were altered (differ in publication):

utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

The statement of the 8, and their signatures, are in Cowdery’s handwriting, as part of the printed manuscript used for publishing.

No original documents with the signature of the 8 witnesses exists.

josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/the-testimony-of-eight-witnesses-circa-june–august-1829#1

And then let’s consider that Oliver Cowdery was one of the three witnesses.

 

[KathleenGee]

Is this material for real?

The hieroglyphics, the caricature of the man, the manner of presentation…crooked lines…not compunctual …

Somebody explain to me the validity of these photos…

Is this the proof of Mormonism…???

 

[pablope]

There is certainly evidence to show that Joseph Smith was who he said he was, in fact there is a whole book and testimony of many people who knew him and likewise received revelation from God. You of course may feel there is not enough evidence or that other evidence contradicts what I have just said but do not be naive, there is evidence.

Certainly I can provide evidence that what Jesus built crumbled and was restored. You of course would not accept it and would provide contrary evidence.

And so Christ answers the need today with evidence of himself as written in the Bible and Book of Mormon. It may not be the strictly physical evidence some feel they must have but it is the same evidence he gave 2000 years ago, his words and his deeds as recorded in the BofM. His coming to the Nephites after his resurrection and the teaching of His gospel.

Well…let us make it easy for you…show us something tangible with the comparable mormon equivalent:

The mormon equivalent of St. Francis of Assisi and Padre Pio with the Stigmata

An apparation of the any…comparable to Lourdes or Fatima

An incorruptible saint…like that of Catherine of Sienna, Catherine Laboure, Bernadette of Lourdes…

To make it easy…if Joseph Smith is really a beloved from God almight…similar to the saints above…his body should be incorrupted…so has his body been exhumed? Why don’t you show evidence of his incorruptibility?

 

[Porknpie]

You know what, I’ll make this easy. I don’t need a huge amount of historical and archeological evidence to prove the locations and people of the Book of Mormon, the same kind of archeological and historical proof available to validate the existance of sites mentioned in the Quoran, the Old and New Testaments, the Vinaya Pitaka, and the Bhagavad Gita. Just give me one. Just one, single, solitary piece of evidence that proves one single solitary site in the Book of Mormon.

Go ahead. I’m waiting.

I would really love to see a single chariot let alone thousands. . But the Mormon church leadership knows that there are no chariots, no ancient civilizations. If they did they would excavate and prove their religion to be true and in doing so convert the whole world. It’s all a lie and I expect God’s judgement to fall harshly on the leaders who know it to be a lie and are leading the Mormon faithful astray.

 

[PaulDupre]

I was serious. I couldn’t really give a response beyond that, until after I read this hypothetical report that is based on the hypothetical study of the hypothetical “Hill Cumorah”.

BTW, Mormon apologetics isn’t really in consensus that it is the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the BoM. So that gives you an intellectually lazy out when the report shows nothing that supports the BoM.

Reminds me of Joseph Smith’s slippery treasure.

The idea that the Hill Cumorah in New York may not be the Hill Cumorah described in the Book Of Mormon is a very recent idea. The GAs of the LDS church since Joseph Smith have been unanimous in their teaching and declarations that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the one and only.

So why don’t they excavate it? The GAs know that there is nothing to find there because the Book Of Mormon is fiction.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[Janderich]

So why don’t they excavate it? The GAs know that there is nothing to find there because the Book Of Mormon is fiction.

Pure speculation about the Hill Cumorah Paul (albeit one that suits your belief).

 

[Janderich]

You know what, I’ll make this easy. I don’t need a huge amount of historical and archeological evidence to prove the locations and people of the Book of Mormon, the same kind of archeological and historical proof available to validate the existance of sites mentioned in the Quoran, the Old and New Testaments, the Vinaya Pitaka, and the Bhagavad Gita. Just give me one. Just one, single, solitary piece of evidence that proves one single solitary site in the Book of Mormon.

Go ahead. I’m waiting.

Your above statement simply shows you have missed almost everything I have been trying to say.

“There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle.”

• Joseph Smith

 

[HonoraDominum]

Your above statement simply shows you have missed almost everything I have been trying to say.

“There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle.”

• Joseph Smith

Really? That’s all you can come up with? We already went over the “Double Bind” mentality, meaning that because I don’t believe you, I have failed to know the truth due to my own fault. You have yet to respond to why when I did everything I could to know the truth about Mormonism that I came to the conclusion that it was false. When you accused me of not allowing you to depend on faith as I claim to do, I asked for simple historical evidence that the Book of Mormon is real, to which I get this response.

So what exactly is it that I’m missing that you’re so very much trying to tell me? That the Book of Mormon has to be taken by faith alone? That I am close-minded because I do not believe the Book of Mormon? That I should be respectful of your religion even though you came to the Catholic boards to do your proselytizing, and have called those of us who don’t willingly agree with you as lacking in faith? Please clarify what it is that I’m missing, because despite your many attempts to prove me close-minded, I’m seriously curious as to what it is you’re trying to prove by being here.

Since I’ve asked you to clarify what it is you’re trying to tell me, I suppose I should be very forthright in my intentions as well. I know, as an ex-Mormon, that only the good graces of God can lift that veil of lies and deceit from the eyes of a true believing Mormon. I pray daily and make many sacrifices for the conversion of souls. I know that nothing I say can bring about this light into your soul - only the good God can bring that kind of grace. My mission here on these boards is to keep those who have the grace of a true Christian baptism and who have the grace of a testimony of the Eucharistic Lord from falling victim to the lies that are constantly twisted about here by Mormons. You’re not the first Mormon to come on this board picking a fight, and you won’t be the last. However, I pray that your experiences here will plant a mustard seed of doubt that will someday grow into the dynamite that blows the cornerstone of your belief out the water. There is a group of us, most of which you have met by now, who will not back down about the lies that we know about in the Mormon church and the truth that we have found within the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church.

Joseph Smith lied. Joseph Smith was a liar. The witnesses were liars. Thomas S. Monson is a liar. The truth lies with God and God alone, and he does not want to share you with these false prophets. Christ died for your sins and loves you. He desires a close and intimate relationship with you, and this will never happen as long as you are spending your time battling your beliefs on these boards and going to the Temple and reading a false book. The only way you will ever know Him is to beg Him in prayer for the grace to know the truth, and to learn to know and love Him as how He really is, not as how you imagine Him to be, or not how the Mormon leadership imagines him to be.