Ancestry.com and the Mormon Church

[mtolympus]

I found this on another discussion board.

Aren’t the mormons going against their own scriptures by doing this?

Alma 34:32-35 Those who die without being baptized in this life are too late, there is nothing that can be done later:

I would LOVE for someone to explain that one.

I love the way you paraphrase Alma 34:32-35 which doen’t even mention “baptism”. However, accuracy doesn’t seem to be a high priority when critisizing Mormons.

 

[twopekinguys]

I love the way you paraphrase Alma 34:32-35 which doen’t even mention “baptism”. However, accuracy doesn’t seem to be a high priority when critisizing Mormons.

Snarky much?

What it is talking about (rather clearly I might add) is that your choices have to be made in this life, and not in the afterlife.

This directly contradicts a proxy baptism done after someone dies. After all, isn’t that one of the purposes of a baptism for the dead? An offer of salvation? Or do you have a totally different idea of what you are “offering” by these baptisms?

ETA: I noticed that you didn’t bother to mention what exactly it is talking about. Instead you merely point out it didn’t “mention baptism”. Typical diversion.

 

[mtolympus]

Snarky much?

What it is talking about (rather clearly I might add) is that your choices have to be made in this life, and not in the afterlife.

This directly contradicts a proxy baptism done after someone dies. After all, isn’t that one of the purposes of a baptism for the dead? An offer of salvation? Or do you have a totally different idea of what you are “offering” by these baptisms?

ETA: I noticed that you didn’t bother to mention what exactly it is talking about. Instead you merely point out it didn’t “mention baptism”. Typical diversion.

Alma 34:32-35 tells us that this life is the time to prepare to meet God and that we should not procastinate the day of our repentance. We believe we are judged by Christ based on what we have done in this life with what we have been given and on the desires of our hearts in seeking the Kingdom of God.

Everyone must be baptised by the proper authority to enter the Kingdom of God, even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ, for: “Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” (John 3:5).

We will be judged by what we do in this life based on what we have been given. However, in the spirit world before our final judgement and before our resurrection we must learn the things of God. “For this cause was the gospel preached to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)

The scripture from Alma is telling us the dangers of “death bed repentance” and does not contradict the doctrine of baptism for the dead.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Back to the topic of Ancestry.com, I don’t like the fact that they charge for the use of their site, (although they are not the only genealogy site that charges, to be fair.)

I have found the most information from a site called Find A Grave, it’s free and people network with other people to help you find your ancestors and where they are buried. I have found so much information about my ancestors, and volunteers have posted photos of their graves, given me obits, etc. Check it out!

 

[Pepband_Mom]

CHRISTINE

Yes Ancestry.com does charge for usage of their site. I believe the bottom line to obtain as much info on the dead to perform useless baptisms on dead people judged long ago by “Joseph Smith, Michael the Archangel & Jesus Christ.”

Wherever in the Bible does it say an angel is on our judgement committee.
Didn’t the Bible say WE would judge the ANGELS?

 

[mtolympus]

CHRISTINE

Yes Ancestry.com does charge for usage of their site. I believe the bottom line to obtain as much info on the dead to perform useless baptisms on dead people judged long ago by “Joseph Smith, Michael the Archangel & Jesus Christ.”

Wherever in the Bible does it say an angel is on our judgement committee.
Didn’t the Bible say WE would judge the ANGELS?

Ancestry.com is a business that for a fee helps people discover their family tree which has roots that are our ancesters and branches which are our progenies. This business in not run by the LDS Church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the work we do in the temple by which we connect our roots and our branches is very important. Malachi chapters 3 and 4 tell about the restoration of temple work shortly before the the Second Coming of Jesus Christ referred to in Malachi as “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” (Malachi 4:5)

Jesus Christ the Lord is the only Judge. One verse in Malachi reads: “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” (Malachi 4:1) emphasis added

 

[runningdude]

No one has produced evidence that Ancestry.com is in anyway affiliated with the Latter Day Saint movement. So far, all I’ve read is a lot of hearsay and speculation.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

hmm

a vain and useless baptism of a dead person who decided at the time of his death already what direction he/she chooses is a connection to your roots and branches is “very important”

LDS tragically think they can AFFECT an individual’s CHOICE after death seems against that person’s free will to choose God or not - is pure fantasy. God is the Ultimate Gentleman and He gives us what we decide. He won’t stomp on our free will & at the time of his death that choice is cast - permanently. The personal decision of that person is what it is and can’t be changed by God Himself let alone LDS attempts. The frenzy to track down one’s every ancestor that every lived to baptize them by “proxy” is useless. Even JP2 has been “baptized” several times!** :banghead: Proxy baptisms are a sad waste of time and resources especially since the LDS baptism lacks validity in the first place - it lacks in proper intent. They do not baptize in the name of the Father (God) and of the Son (God) and of the Holy Spirit (God). LDS have failed and rejected Christianity 101 since it’s fabrication by one Joseph Smith and followed by Brigham Young.

Hence, proxy baptism, promise of attainable godhood, blood oaths, polygamy, lust and other unsavory distortions of the True Gospel place LDS theology outside of the boundaries & safety net of this historic Gospel namely Christianity. That Church is the Church that Jesus Christ ACTUALLY FOUNDED and LOVES even to this day; He LOVES His Bride and will always watch over, protect His Bride!

Funny, lust has never been a VIRTUE. The same JS & BY promoted concept of polygamy as the right thing to do; Young’s 23rd wife showed strength & common sense saw into this fraud & bailed.

Please LDS wake up & smell the coffee, you perform “Temple” works for naught.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

hmm

LDS tragically think they can AFFECT an individual’s CHOICE after death seems against that person’s free will to choose God or not - is pure fantasy. God is the Ultimate Gentleman and** He gives us what we decide**. .

But once you are baptized Catholic you are Catholic “for life” apparently… so… what do you make of that?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Apostles Creed…goes back to the beginnings of Christ’s Church; in fact one ancient referred SS Peter and Paul as authors of the Creed we profess at daily Mass.

The Nicene Creed further defined Christ as True God and True Man, and only ONE BAPTISM.

You cannot wash off baptism because it cleanses the soul of original sin.

Its essential rite was defined by the Catholic Church…so whoever uses the rite of baptism is essentially baptizing one into the Catholic Church and not Mormonism…if Mormonism is indeed now following the Christian rite.

So the prerequisites for Baptism have already been in effect since the beginning of Christianity…we follow the Apostles…and the Nicene Creed was the final revelation of Jesus Christ-----to also prevent the fall back into polytheism and paganism.,belief in man himself following his own wishes…idols only extensions of his desires.

Man cannot bring about his own salvation or of any other. That is blasphemy against God HImself…Who alone can judge.

If you are in a religion whose construct is condemning others and it is better, is essentially placing its foundation on the pride of man.

To go behind our believers’ back and baptize them…is underhanded and dishonest…and certainly denies the testament of choosing right from wrong as well as exhibiting ignorance of solid belief and practice, based on 2,000 years of what our faith is based.

 

[twopekinguys]

Alma 34:32-35 tells us that this life is the time to prepare to meet God and that we should not procastinate the day of our repentance. We believe we are judged by Christ based on what we have done in this life with what we have been given and on the desires of our hearts in seeking the Kingdom of God.

Everyone must be baptised by the proper authority to enter the Kingdom of God, even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ, for: “Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” (John 3:5).

We will be judged by what we do in this life based on what we have been given. However, in the spirit world before our final judgement and before our resurrection we must learn the things of God. “For this cause was the gospel preached to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)

The scripture from Alma is telling us the dangers of “death bed repentance” and does not contradict the doctrine of baptism for the dead.

Glad you agree there is a definite conflict.

Your scripture (not anyone else’s) say get everything in order before you die in just a few short verses, but yet you pull a scripture from the Bible that says it’s OK, you get a get out of jail free card by baptizing after death. (BTW, you’re taking the Bible verses out of context)

You can’t have it both ways. We are judged at our death, and our fate in the afterlife is determined at that time. Period.

In addition, you talk about baptism being done by “proper authority”. Mormons lack that authority, and any baptisms performed are invalid based on the mormon churches view/understanding of the Trinity, and view on original sin, among other things.

Doing baptisms for the dead is nothing more than an insult to those who have already passed away. See the Jewish-mormon controversy. Which is still playing out by the way.

Also, how can you say that people like St. Damien, among other Catholic clergy and religous have not heard the gospel in this life? That in and of itself is a huge insult.

 

[KathleenGee]

So is it safe to say Mormonism does not value the significance we are given in this life to see God in all His manifestations…as St. Paul referred to in his Letter to the Romans…that man can perceive God in nature and in human reason…???

And that every person in this life can choose to acknowledge God and one’s neighbor, and treat life with respect, and in the way he/she wishes to be treated…???

For one day is as a thousand years to God…

For we do not believe we lived prior to this existence, and that each day, whatever little act we do in the Lord’s name, is big in His eyes, as Mother Theresa once said…

We have faith that God is present to us 24/7, that we are given choices to choose Him and His will every moment of the day…that daily life is sacred and not to waste the graces He gives us…

 

[FabiusMaximus]

hmm

a vain and useless baptism of a dead person who decided at the time of his death already what direction he/she chooses is a connection to your roots and branches is “very important”

LDS tragically think they can AFFECT an individual’s CHOICE after death seems against that person’s free will to choose God or not - is pure fantasy. God is the Ultimate Gentleman and He gives us what we decide. He won’t stomp on our free will & at the time of his death that choice is cast - permanently. The personal decision of that person is what it is and can’t be changed by God Himself let alone LDS attempts. The frenzy to track down one’s every ancestor that every lived to baptize them by “proxy” is useless. Even JP2 has been “baptized” several times!** :banghead: Proxy baptisms are a sad waste of time and resources especially since the LDS baptism lacks validity in the first place - it lacks in proper intent. They do not baptize in the name of the Father (God) and of the Son (God) and of the Holy Spirit (God). LDS have failed and rejected Christianity 101 since it’s fabrication by one Joseph Smith and followed by Brigham Young.

Hence, proxy baptism, promise of attainable godhood, blood oaths, polygamy, lust and other unsavory distortions of the True Gospel place LDS theology outside of the boundaries & safety net of this historic Gospel namely Christianity. That Church is the Church that Jesus Christ ACTUALLY FOUNDED and LOVES even to this day; He LOVES His Bride and will always watch over, protect His Bride!

Funny, lust has never been a VIRTUE. The same JS & BY promoted concept of polygamy as the right thing to do; Young’s 23rd wife showed strength & common sense saw into this fraud & bailed.

Please LDS wake up & smell the coffee, you perform “Temple” works for naught.

So much fierce derision and uncharitable attacks against Mormonism.

I do not consider Mormonism to be a Christian faith, nor do I see the validity in proxy baptism, but some of these attacks are just plain incendiary.

Why are Mormons getting so thoroughly pummeled for this?

I love my family. If I believed that a proxy baptism might give them the opportunity to be saved, I would jump at that chance. Who wouldn’t?

 

[mtolympus]

So much fierce derision and uncharitable attacks against Mormonism.

I do not consider Mormonism to be a Christian faith, nor do I see the validity in proxy baptism, but some of these attacks are just plain incendiary.

Why are Mormons getting so thoroughly pummeled for this?

I love my family. If I believed that a proxy baptism might give them the opportunity to be saved, I would jump at that chance. Who wouldn’t?

I have wondered that myself. It wasn’t nearly this bad two years ago and it seems that not many Mormons participate anymore. I’m not trying to change anyones beliefs but occasionally I try to answer questions about what I believe and give biblical references. (There is usually no reason to argue beyond that point.)

You are correct that Mormons are not trinitarian Christians as officially defined by the Catholic Church and most protestant churches. However, we do believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and there are other definitions of the word “Christian”. I looked for a definition in the Bible and here is what I came up with:

A Christian is a disciple or follower of Jesus Christ: “And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26) Jesus told us how to know who are his disciples and therefore who are true Christians: “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if you have love one to another.” (John 13:34-35) emphasis added

 

[mtolympus]

Your scripture (not anyone else’s) say get everything in order before you die in just a few short verses, but yet you pull a scripture from the Bible that says it’s OK, you get a get out of jail free card by baptizing after death. (BTW, you’re taking the Bible verses out of context)

I would suggest those who might be interested read for themselves 1 Peter 3:18 through 1 Peter 4:6. Did it qoute the Bible out of context? At least I’m quoting from the Bible. You are quoting from Monopoly.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Fabius

“fierce derision” eh???

I don’t consider godhood, blood oaths, polygamy, lust “Christian” actions worth defending and honoring. DO YOU? Yet posters of different groups here continually defend beliefs on these forums that are contrary to the decalogue. I defend their right to believe what they want to! But to trot it out as a replacement for Christianity is something else.

Mormon window dressing is appealing but these people have been sold a shabby bill of goods. I have worked with mormons elbow to elbow at a job for many years & saw Catholic co-workers leave for mormonism - it looked so good I got close to doing the same! It’s the LIE that needs to be aired, to be brought into the open, ex.: “thou shalt live as gods” that I flatly reject.

Ask the couple dozen or so Catholic converts on the forums who have LIVED mormonism. Ask them about the joy they have, have > or <. Ask them if the weight is off. Ask them if they have been set free, not shackled with useless chores such as baptism for the dead.

I said before in another thread: are the lds on the forums here to proselytize? Do you expect me to blindly accept what they say & say nothing in defense?

My mormon boss verbatim told me one day: “there are only 2 true churches. The Catholic Church and the Mormon Church. But the Catholic Church fell into apostasy.” After I regained my composure, my reply was "I wasn’t aware Truth came in 2 different forms & didn’t Jesus promise to be with HIS Church - “I will be with you always”… & discussion went on from there.

I stand my ground: baptizing dead people is not allowing the dead to live with the results of the choices they have made; conclusion = a waste of time and resources. GOD HIMSELF allows us the glorious freedom to choose HIM or for ex. the man-made notion of an impending “celestial godhood”.

 

[twopekinguys]

I would suggest those who might be interested read for themselves 1 Peter 3:18 through 1 Peter 4:6. Did it qoute the Bible out of context? At least I’m quoting from the Bible. You are quoting from Monopoly.

Typical…go for the personal attack. You should be so proud.

 

[mtolympus]

Typical…go for the personal attack. You should be so proud.

Sorry that you consider that a personal attack but you really did quote from Monopoly! I try to have a sense of humor occasionally. Truly sorry if I offended you.

 

[lizaanne]

Is Ancestry.com a reliable resource for genealogical research despite it being run by the Mormon church?

It is only as accurate as the data people put in there. For example - several years ago I looked up my last name to see what I could find. I found a family tree that showed my father and step mother having one child together (which never happened) who was my step-sister, and his marriage to my mother, and my birth, was completely omitted. Apparently my step-sister created some sort of fantasy life for herself in this little “family” tree that never existed in real life. Had someone been trying to do research from another country and found this, they would have been given extremely false information. Fortunately, as far as I can tell, the tree has been removed. But I have not bothered to pay for a higher access level to get in and check thoroughly.

As far as access to government documents and other records that are not self created by others, I think it’s a fine site to use for research.

~Liza

 

[mtolympus]

hmm

a vain and useless baptism of a dead person who decided at the time of his death already what direction he/she chooses is a connection to your roots and branches is “very important”

:banghead: Please LDS wake up & smell the coffee, you perform “Temple” works for naught.

If you’re so sure that temple works ar for naught, why do you get so worked up about it? I hope you don’t give yourself a headache trying to reason with us Mormons.