Ancestry.com and the Mormon Church

[HonoraDominum]

I didn’t say this proves the Book of Mormon is true or that it proves that an angel appeared to Joseph Smith. It only shows that if Moroni did actually apear to Joseph Smith, according to John, the angel was from God.

But then you have to understand John’s definition of Christ, you see. According to the Book of Mormon, or at least the second edition and beyond, Jesus is defined as the first born son of God, our physical and exalted Father. But Catholics believe in the Trinity, a concept much more eloquently stated in the Athanasian Creed than I could ever compose:

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

So according to I John, Moroni does not meet the criteria, as the prophet that “translated” the scriptures given to him does not define our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as one of an equal in the Holy Trinity. According to Catholics, Moroni, or what appeared as an angel named Moroni, did not proclaim Christ in His true nature of both True God and True Man, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father.

 

[RebeccaJ]

John was speaking of spirits that appear to us not mortals living on earth.

If you believe there is such a spirit called Moroni. Otherwise, it is human mortal words on a piece of paper; a tale. I see no reason to believe Smith’s tales. Including his tales of Moroni.

Even if you accept his tales, Moroni doesn’t testify of Jesus Christ. Jesus is not a demi God, with a mortal mother and a divine father, who is of organized spirit matter among many gods. That is someone else.

In other words, Mormons don’t testify of Jesus Chrsit, and since your belief comes from Joseph Smith, he did not either. If his claim is of belief coming from a spirit, this spirit does not either.

 

[mtolympus]

But then you have to understand John’s definition of Christ, you see. According to the Book of Mormon, or at least the second edition and beyond, Jesus is defined as the first born son of God, our physical and exalted Father. But Catholics believe in the Trinity.
So according to I John, Moroni does not meet the criteria, as the prophet that “translated” the scriptures given to him does not define our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as one of an equal in the Holy Trinity. According to Catholics, Moroni, or what appeared as an angel named Moroni, did not proclaim Christ in His true nature of both True God and True Man, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father.

John said: “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:2) You have added a totally new criteria according to your own beliefs.

 

[RebeccaJ]

John said: “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:2) You have added a totally new criteria according to your own beliefs.

Seriously, we look at what is said in context. Moroni in context of Protestant American Christianity of the 19th century, is a fan fiction. Looked at in the context of all the other teachings of Smith, his pagan Egyptian ideas, Freemasonry and folk magic, he doesn’t pass any truth verifying test.

And that is without going into the occult beliefs and practices that surround Smith’s claims regarding an “angel Moroni”.

 

[HonoraDominum]

John said: “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:2) You have added a totally new criteria according to your own beliefs.

No, actually I just brought up what I consider to be a HUGE gap between our religions. The Mormon concept of “Jesus” is not the Jesus Christ that Catholics and most Protestants believe in. If I look at my co-worker, Jesus Martinez, and say that I believe that Jesus is come in the flesh, technically I’m kind of right. But I’m not talking about the same Jesus as John. And according to 2,000 years of Christian tradition, neither are you.

That’s one of those concepts as a Mormon I had no clue about, until God graced me with the desire to learn about Him as He truly is - true God and true Man. God is not an exalted man married to a Heavenly Mother, Christ is not my spiritual brother, and God the Father and God the Son are not two different exalted people. God is God and Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God, three persons, one substance.

 

[Porknpie]

Want to disprove Christianity… Find the bones of Jesus.

Want to disprove the Assumption of Mary? Find her bones.

Want to prove Mormonism is true? Find the bones from this ancient civilization. Even the bones of one person. Find a chariot…just one. For that matter find a horse. No bones about it…none can be found because the religion is false. Whats worse, Mormon leaders know this and are keeping it from their misled faithful. Instead of going door to door trying to make a few converts, they could convert the world by digging up some remains and showing it was actually true. But they don’t do this…and why?

Archeology has uncovered ancient civil actions all over the world. Egyptian, Asian, Aztex just to name a few. And thousands of remains, not just of the people but of their civilization. Mormonism should be easy to prove. But you cant prove what never existed.

The same could be said for evidence of apostasy in the early church.

 

[mtolympus]

No, actually I just brought up what I consider to be a HUGE gap between our religions. The Mormon concept of “Jesus” is not the Jesus Christ that Catholics and most Protestants believe in. If I look at my co-worker, Jesus Martinez, and say that I believe that Jesus is come in the flesh, technically I’m kind of right. But I’m not talking about the same Jesus as John. And according to 2,000 years of Christian tradition, neither are you.

That’s one of those concepts as a Mormon I had no clue about, until God graced me with the desire to learn about Him as He truly is - true God and true Man. God is not an exalted man married to a Heavenly Mother, Christ is not my spiritual brother, and God the Father and God the Son are not two different exalted people. God is God and Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God, three persons, one substance.

“Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:2)So, are you saying that if a spirit gives the simple description of Jesus given in John’s test one might be confused and think he was describing the Mormon Jesus?

 

[HonoraDominum]

“Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:2)So, are you saying that if a spirit gives the simple description of Jesus given in John’s test one might be confused and think he was describing the Mormon Jesus?

No. I’m saying that when John says that a spirit confesses that Jesus Christ is come, then John is right. But when “Moroni” confesses that the Mormon Jesus is come, that John’s logic does not apply, any more than when I say that I see Jesus Martinez and confess that Jesus is come in the flesh, because the Jesus described by “Moroni” is not the biblical Jesus.

I think maybe we should back things up a bit. And also stop using quote marks before I wear out that key on my keyboard. We can both agree that the Bible is the word of God, although the Catholic church acknowledges it as the inerrant word of God whereas Mormons believe it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. Let’s start with that common ground. The reason that I believe the Bible to be at the very least a historical documentation is because of the archeological and historical evidence proving that it dates back 2,000 years. As far as the events presented in the book, I know that there was a man named Jesus who existed at some point historically, as there are multiple non-biased historical records and archeological evidence that point to this fact. I know that John existed, and that Paul existed, along with the other apostles and writers of the New Testament. Heck, just this morning I venerated a first class relic of St. Paul after Mass at my parish - there is physical proof of Paul’s existence that can be traced back 2,000 years.

You’re using Moroni’s revelation as proof that the Book of Mormon is true. I say Moroni doesn’t exist. So as a starting point to help me acknowledge the basic truth of the existence of Moroni, point me to one single viable provable historical evidence, be it archeological or otherwise, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there actually was a Moroni at all. Heck, I’ll make it easy - show me one single undisputed piece of evidence that proves that even one location, one person, one instance documented in the historical logs of the Book of Mormon was here on this, the American continent.

Once we establish that there really was a Moroni and that there really were Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, Lamanites, Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites, we can start discussing if Moroni’s statements actually came from God.

 

[mtolympus]

No. I’m saying that when John says that a spirit confesses that Jesus Christ is come, then John is right. But when “Moroni” confesses that the Mormon Jesus is come, that John’s logic does not apply, any more than when I say that I see Jesus Martinez and confess that Jesus is come in the flesh, because the Jesus described by “Moroni” is not the biblical Jesus.

So we need to consult the “HonoraDaminum test” to determine if we can trust the logic of John and apply his test of the spirits? “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:2) Why didn’t John just say “Every spirit that confesseth the Triune God” if that is what he meant?

The point of John’s test is very simple: If the angel Moroni visited Joseph Smith, the angel was from God.

You’re using Moroni’s revelation as proof that the Book of Mormon is true.

No. I’m not trying to prove the Book of Mormon or anything else. I was telling about what we believe Moroni’ quoted to Joseph Smith from the Old Testament especially Malachi Chapters 3 and 4, and why we believe that the temple work we are doing is so important.

 

[HonoraDominum]

So we need to consult the “HonoraDaminum test” to determine if we can trust the logic of John and apply his test of the spirits? “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:2) Why didn’t John just say “Every spirit that confesseth the Triune God” if that is what he meant?

The point of John’s test is very simple: If the angel Moroni visited Joseph Smith, the angel was from God.

No. I’m not trying to prove the Book of Mormon or anything else. I was telling about what we believe Moroni’ quoted to Joseph Smith from the Old Testament especially Malachi Chapters 3 and 4, and why we believe that the temple work we are doing is so important.

And I again go back to what I just asked. Let’s not even discuss the truthfulness of what is being said. We have to first establish that Moroni actually existed. If we can establish that Moroni existed just like John existed, we have a firmer starting position. So let’s start with that. Your evidence, please?

 

[mtolympus]

And I again go back to what I just asked. Let’s not even discuss the truthfulness of what is being said. We have to first establish that Moroni actually existed. If we can establish that Moroni existed just like John existed, we have a firmer starting position. So let’s start with that. Your evidence, please?

Whether or not Moroni existed or whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet is a matter of personal searching and faith. I have said severaI times that am not trying to prove anything. My only point has been that according to John’s test (1 John 4:2), if the angel Moroni actually did appear to Joseph Smith, according to John’s test: the angel was from God.

 

[HonoraDominum]

Whether or not Moroni existed or whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet is a matter of personal searching and faith. I have said severaI times that am not trying to prove anything. My only point has been that according to John’s test (1 John 4:2), if the angel Moroni actually did appear to Joseph Smith, according to John’s test: the angel was from God.

You keep saying, well according to 1 John, Moroni … and at that point, your argument becomes null because you have yet to prove that there was a Moroni to say anything at all.

And my point is that you have not one shred of evidence that Moroni even existed. I’m not asking you if Moroni was a prophet or if Moroni was a man of God or what version of Christ that Moroni was preaching. I’m only asking for proof that Moroni was a real flesh and blood man. You have yet to provide an answer.

So again I ask, evidence please? “Personal searching and faith” does not count as evidence that it is true any more than me saying that “personal searching and faith” counts as evidence that there was no Moroni. I say there was no Moroni because after years of doing research as both a Mormon and an ex-Mormon and an ex-Mormon Catholic, I have yet to see one single small solitary piece of evidence that that Book of Mormon can be proven as real by historical evidence or archeology. I can also find, with a simple Google search, many credible unbiased reports, of both neutral parties and Mormons, that say that no evidence can be found.

 

[Miriam1947]

Could that be the the reason the angel Moroni was sent to Joseph Smith rather than the Pope?

That would be assuming that the angel Moroni actually existed.

Revelation has ended. Private revelation is only for the one who has received it and that is only after the Church has approved it. We can accept or reject. It isn’t ours individually.

 

[mtolympus]

You keep saying, well according to 1 John, Moroni … and at that point, your argument becomes null because you have yet to prove that there was a Moroni to say anything at all.

And my point is that you have not one shred of evidence that Moroni even existed. I’m not asking you if Moroni was a prophet or if Moroni was a man of God or what version of Christ that Moroni was preaching. I’m only asking for proof that Moroni was a real flesh and blood man. You have yet to provide an answer.

So again I ask, evidence please? “Personal searching and faith” does not count as evidence that it is true any more than me saying that “personal searching and faith” counts as evidence that there was no Moroni. I say there was no Moroni because after years of doing research as both a Mormon and an ex-Mormon and an ex-Mormon Catholic, I have yet to see one single small solitary piece of evidence that that Book of Mormon can be proven as real by historical evidence or archeology. I can also find, with a simple Google search, many credible unbiased reports, of both neutral parties and Mormons, that say that no evidence can be found.

I have shown in our discussion that if Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith the message he delivered came from God- that is a significant point! It is not my responsibility to prove anything to anyone and proselyting on this site is prohibited. If anyone wants to know if Moroni was real they should follow the instructions found near the end of the Book of Mormon, read Moroni 10:3-5.

 

[TexanKnight]

Whether or not Moroni existed or whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet is a matter of personal searching and faith.

Actually, that is not true. If that WAS the true test, the Mohammed was a prophet, James Jones was a prophet and so was Eddy. The true test is not only spiritual, but must contain some foundation. The fact you rely on the word of a convicted con man says a lot about his word. The fact he had at least 9 variations of the first vision should give a hint as to hs believability. The fact there is no scientific or archaeological evidence as to the Book of Mormon should give you some insight as to the veracity of the author. There is a difference between faith and gullibility.

 

[TexanKnight]

I have shown in our discussion that if Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith the message he delivered came from God- that is a significant point! It is not my responsibility to prove anything to anyone and proselyting on this site is prohibited. If anyone wants to know if Moroni was real they should follow the instructions found near the end of the Book of Mormon, read Moroni 10:3-5.

First, your premise is false. A + B does not necessarily mean C.

Second, is the “if” Moroni visited. He didn’t, so we do we do not have to decide who he came from

 

[mtolympus]

That would be assuming that the angel Moroni actually existed.

Yes.

 

[Miriam1947]

Yes.

And he didn’t.

 

[HonoraDominum]

I have shown in our discussion that if Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith the message he delivered came from God- that is a significant point! It is not my responsibility to prove anything to anyone and proselyting on this site is prohibited. If anyone wants to know if Moroni was real they should follow the instructions found near the end of the Book of Mormon, read Moroni 10:3-5.

No, you have shown nothing. You have repeatedly stated that if Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith, and then started that as your argument. I have repeatedly stated that for that to have any relevance to the next part of the section, you have to first prove to me that Moroni existed at all. You have yet to do this, because it cannot be done.

It is not your responsibility to prove anything, you are correct on that note. However, just because you are not required to prove the existence of Moroni does not mean that I have to believe in Moroni just because Joseph Smith said he existed.

And asking people to read and take the “burning in the bosom” test is also a non sequetur in this discussion. Any ex-Mormon on this board (and there are a good handful of us) will be more than happy to go toe-to-toe with you on the “feelings as justification for religion” discussion, and I guarantee you that the Mormon church will not be revealed as true. I was raised Mormon, and before I left the church I did everything I was supposed to. I paid tithing, I went every single Sunday to church, I went to every social event that our singles ward gave, I went through the temple and got endowed. And I remember sitting in the Celestial room with tears in my eyes, begging God, “If you will give this testimony as you promised in Moroni to people who haven’t even set foot in a Mormon church, why do I not have a testimony? Why have I not experienced this ‘burning’ like everyone else? What am I doing wrong? Please, Lord, if this is what you want me to do, let me know, give me a sign or something! You promised right there in Moroni!”

But that sign never came. God brought me that far in my journey towards him only to let me know that it was simply not true. I lost faith in not only Joseph Smith and the Mormon church, but in God and in Christ. I could, and can, still argue with the best of them about the talking points of the “truth” of Mormon religion. But God has revealed to the depths of my soul that Joseph Smith was a liar and a con man, and that his church was not founded by God, and that the Book of Mormon is not the word of God except for those parts of Isaiah that were directly lifted from the Bible.

It took me a very long time, even after I had started RCIA, to even acknowledge that God might actually exist. I’ve only recently been able to call myself Christian out loud to people, and to admit that I do believe that there really is a God who loves me, and that He really has a son and that His son died for me. Only in the past year have I come to not only understand but truly experience the love of Christ for me, of his sacrifice for me, and how although I am a sinful and prideful person that He loves me anyway. I never learned this love as a Mormon, and now that I’ve experienced true and actual love, I never want to lose it again.

I testify to you, MtOlympus, that the Catholic church is the true church of God, founded by the son of God, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. No restoration of the gospel was needed because the authority of Christ never left this earth after Christ gave the powers to bind and loose to Peter. I truly believe that when the Catholic priest at my parish, who was ordained by a Bishop with a direct priesthood lineage back to Peter, whispers “HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM” [For this is my body] over a piece of bread that the bread becomes a man and that man is God. I believe that God is present in all of the tabernacles of the world in all the Catholic churches. I believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, and I believe the Catholic church to be Christ’s church on this earth from now until He comes again in glory.

As you’ve given me a challenge, I give you one in return as I’ve taken yours and found it to be lacking. Go to a Catholic church this week some night, and simply sit in front of the tabernacle (the metal box with the red candle next to it). That is where the blessed sacrament waits in repose between Masses. Just sit there and say a simple prayer, “God, if you are really here, give me the grace to seek you, and in seeking you, find you, and in finding you, learn to love you as you deserve to be loved.” Ask him for faith, ask him for grace. Put your life in His hands, and beg to be given the grace to know the truth. You may not have anything at all happen that day, or you may feel His grace in a way you never thought possible. But I guarantee you that if you start searching for God as he truly is, not the God that you’ve been taught about your entire life as a Mormon, that He will draw you to Him and grace you with His love and all of the graces that you need to be with Him forever.

The beautiful part about God is that when He calls you, there is no stopping the grace and the love that He will pour down upon you. I truly believe that the Mormons who come over here and who are defending their religion here, on the Catholic boards, are already starting to see these graces, as they are fed seeds of doubt in Joseph Smith and in the cornerstones of their religion. You have to reject the lies of Joseph Smith before you can embrace the true love of God and God’s true will for you. Obviously it was God’s will for you to be Mormon at some point in your life, and as the ex-Mormon Catholics will all say here, being Mormons has made them be better Catholics than they would ever have been had they never been Mormon at all. But God wants you for himself - he doesn’t want to share you with Joseph Smith. He wants you to love Him truly and completely, because He loved your first.

Pray tonight to know the truth, whatever that truth may be. The answer may surprise you. You will be in my prayers. Auxilium Christianorum, ora pro nobis.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Beautifully stated, you hit the nail on the head