Ancient living tribe discovered in Brazil.

[brotherhrolf]

Leave them alone. The Earth needs cultures who have not been tainted by western civilization. Contact, if any, should be on their terms. The anthropological world is filled with peoples who have suffered from contact with western civilization. They become mere shadows of what they were.

 

[whiteknite]

Leave them alone. The Earth needs cultures who have not been tainted by western civilization. Contact, if any, should be on their terms. The anthropological world is filled with peoples who have suffered from contact with western civilization. They become mere shadows of what they were.

So true!

 

[Eden]

Leave them alone. The Earth needs cultures who have not been tainted by western civilization. Contact, if any, should be on their terms. The anthropological world is filled with peoples who have suffered from contact with western civilization. They become mere shadows of what they were.

Does the noble savage really exist? Even “uncontacted” tribes were born with the stain of Original Sin.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Does the noble savage really exist? Even “uncontacted” tribes were born with the stain of Original Sin.

No, Rousseau’s ideas are long passe.

Of course they were born with the stain of Original Sin but that doesn’t mean we need to go barging in on these folks. It’s bad enough that they used a helicopter ( I presume) to take those pictures. Put yourself in their sandals and try to imagine how you would deal with the sudden appearance of a helicopter.

Take some time and read about 'cargo cults" in WW II in the south Pacific. We’re not talking about St. Patrick preaching to the Irish here. You want to evangelize? The mission fields are wide open in China and have been for centuries.

I have a serious problem with just “popping in” on what is probably a neolithic culture and evangelizing. Do you not think that they might consider you to be a “god”. Look at Hernan Cortes and the Aztecs or the Spanish and the Maya. Do we really want to make that same mistake again? Matteo Ricci had it right and was rebuffed by the Vatican. Let’s not make the same mistake again.

Noble savages? No. Cultural innocents? Yes.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Leave them alone. The Earth needs cultures who have not been tainted by western civilization. Contact, if any, should be on their terms. The anthropological world is filled with peoples who have suffered from contact with western civilization. They become mere shadows of what they were.

Well, I’m not so sure. My pagan Irish ancestors, it turns out, did engage in human sacrifice as well as slaving, rapine, looting and wanton killing. On balance, I would say their exposure to western civilization did them more good than harm.

 

[9Choirs]

No, Rousseau’s ideas are long passe.

Of course they were born with the stain of Original Sin but that doesn’t mean we need to go barging in on these folks. It’s bad enough that they used a helicopter ( I presume) to take those pictures. Put yourself in their sandals and try to imagine how you would deal with the sudden appearance of a helicopter.

Take some time and read about 'cargo cults" in WW II in the south Pacific. We’re not talking about St. Patrick preaching to the Irish here. You want to evangelize? The mission fields are wide open in China and have been for centuries.

I have a serious problem with just “popping in” on what is probably a neolithic culture and evangelizing. Do you not think that they might consider you to be a “god”. Look at Hernan Cortes and the Aztecs or the Spanish and the Maya. Do we really want to make that same mistake again? Matteo Ricci had it right and was rebuffed by the Vatican. Let’s not make the same mistake again.

Noble savages? No. Cultural innocents? Yes.

Well said. There appears to be so much interest for ‘sorting out the problems in other ethnic cultures’ from ethnicities that have the most problems occuring in their own Christian lands. Ironic, isn’t it? As I’ve said previously, the rascist colonial mindset amongst Europeans is truly well and alive, yet they don’t even realise they possess such a distasteful attitude.

Ave Maria

 

[9Choirs]

I will, however, agree with you that many Catholics would do well to pay more attention to their own salvation. I would point out, however, that Catholics are not the ones who imposed the legal enshrinement of sodomy and abortion on the nation.

FYIY. Up to as much as 97% of Catholics in the US use birth control. The abortion rate amongst Catholic women in the US is similar to the abortion rate of other demographics and I’d hazzard a guess that most Catholic women in the west fornicate. In addition, I’ve seen numerous polls revealing that Catholics are more in favour of homosexuality than protestant Christian denominations. Just the amount of sexual depravity by what are predominantly a caucasian heterosexual populace makes my stomach turn, in particular when such pagan animal behaviour is being justified by ‘Church teaching’ (Heavily distorted Church teaching, more like). Much of the crtiticisms of homosexual activity by such heterosexuals** is even being practiced by them** which is testament to how sick much of the West has become, and not homosexuals alone.

Christians may not have initially implemented such moral decadence **but they’ve happily become complicit with such moral decadence and even advertise such pride on this Catholic website **

Again Ridgerunner, sort out the mess in your own back yard before you even begin to think that you are qualified to sort out the mess in others.

Ave Maria

 

[Eden]

No, Rousseau’s ideas are long passe.

Agreed. Your original post had me worried that you were engaging in 18th century condescension. Although, I’m not sure how the term “cultural innocents” is any different.

Of course they were born with the stain of Original Sin but that doesn’t mean we need to go barging in on these folks. It’s bad enough that they used a helicopter ( I presume) to take those pictures. Put yourself in their sandals and try to imagine how you would deal with the sudden appearance of a helicopter.

It also means we shouldn’t idealize their civilization. But, really, I just find it hard to believe that they have never been contacted beyond fly-overs. I’m thinking of the fraud of the Tasaday, in particular.

Take some time and read about 'cargo cults" in WW II in the south Pacific. We’re not talking about St. Patrick preaching to the Irish here. You want to evangelize? The mission fields are wide open in China and have been for centuries.

I’m not particularly interested in whether or not groups evangelize these people. I’m just concerned by the idealization of their civilization that is implied with the argument to “leave them alone”. I’m not too familiar with “cargo cults”, but I believe the exposure to the outside world in these cases was not with missionaries, but with military personnel.

I have a serious problem with just “popping in” on what is probably a neolithic culture and evangelizing. Do you not think that they might consider you to be a “god”. Look at Hernan Cortes and the Aztecs or the Spanish and the Maya. Do we really want to make that same mistake again? Matteo Ricci had it right and was rebuffed by the Vatican. Let’s not make the same mistake again.

Considering the outcome in what was once Aztec and Maya land, I can’t say that’s a concern. Considering the miracle of Juan Diego’s tilma and the appearance of Our Lady of Guadeloupe, I don’t see how we can say the outcome of initiating contact with the native people was ill-advised.

Noble savages? No. Cultural innocents? Yes.

Too me, saying they are cultural innocents is condescending. I don’t think, intellectually, they are any less capable than we. How can you be sure they would not be interested in learning what other societies are like? Are they children to be coddled and protected or adults like the rest of us? Calling them “cultural innocents” is a repackaging of the noble savage idea for the 21st century. If you can explain to me how your position is not condescending, please help me. I’m not seeing it any other way.

 

[Eden]

The 18th century ideal proposed that indigenous people had been spared the vices seen in a settled society and could be defined with the following eight attributes:

1. Physical health
2. Living in harmony with nature
   3) Inability to lie, fidelity
   4) Generosity and selflessness
   5) **Innocence **
   6) Disdain of luxury
   7) Moral courage
   8) “Natural” intelligence or innate, untutored wisdom

While the noble savages were regarded as having a noble life, they were never regarded as equals, or allowed to partake in economic, political or intellectual life as human beings.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the noble savage ideal was deconstructed as form of patronising racism.

From an article on the Aborigines and the Noble Savage:

convictcreations.com/aborigines/tribalrelationship.html

 

[9Choirs]

The 18th century ideal proposed that indigenous people had been spared the vices seen in a settled society and could be defined with the following eight attributes:

1. Physical health
2. Living in harmony with nature
   3) Inability to lie, fidelity
   4) Generosity and selflessness
   5) **Innocence **
   6) Disdain of luxury
   7) Moral courage
   8) “Natural” intelligence or innate, untutored wisdom

While the noble savages were regarded as having a noble life, they were never regarded as equals, or allowed to partake in economic, political or intellectual life as human beings.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the noble savage ideal was deconstructed as form of patronising racism.

From an article on the Aborigines and the Noble Savage:

convictcreations.com/aborigines/tribalrelationship.html

That’s real interesting. Although I don’t condone such attitudes, your own ideologies is equally if not more offensive and covertly rascist

Points 1-8 pretty much summarise accurately indigneous populations, although I do question point 5.

Ave Maria

 

[Eden]

That’s real interesting. Although I don’t condone such attitudes, your own ideologies is equally if not more offensive and covertly rascist

Points 1-8 pretty much summarise accurately indigneous populations, although I do question point 5.

Ave Maria

What are you talking about, specifically? What “ideology” of mine is offensive and covertly racist? Can you be more specific, because I genuinely have no idea what you mean. Is it offensive that I believe it’s condescending to say that a group of people should be shielded from our society because they are in some way incompetent and can’t handle it?

 

[Ridgerunner]

That’s real interesting. Although I don’t condone such attitudes, your own ideologies is equally if not more offensive and covertly rascist

Points 1-8 pretty much summarise accurately indigneous populations, although I do question point 5.

Ave Maria

Breathtaking! Absolutely breathtaking! The list which you attribute to “indigenous peoples” (Whatever that means. Are native New Yorkers “indigenous peoples”?) is:

1. Physical health
2. Living in harmony with nature
3. Inability to lie, fidelity
4. Generosity and selflessness
5. Innocence
6. Disdain of luxury
7. Moral courage
8. “Natural” intelligence or innate, untutored wisdom

is, of course, biased in itself. You didn’t know a single one of them, but feel free to make sweeping generalizations about them. It’s too bad you didn’t have experience of them. One day with the Comanches in the mid-nineteenth century would have cured you of your illusions. Of couse, since they emerged from the Rocky Mountains and drove the Apaches from the Southern Plains, who had driven a previous people from the same area, all in historic times, maybe they wouldn’t qualify as “indigenous peoples” in your judgment. Perhaps you would characterize them as “colonists”.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Again Ridgerunner, sort out the mess in your own back yard before you even begin to think that you are qualified to sort out the mess in others.

(Edited) And what is my own back yard? And why do you assume I even approve of “my own back yard”, whatever that is, just because I don’t agree with everything you say. Are you such a bigot that you assume, just because I am Catholic and can speak English, (that’s all you know about me) that it somehow means I approve of homosexuality and other vices?

 

[Nickkname]

By flying a copter over these ancient people’s homes, the tribe has been changed. They’re going to wonder what a helicopter is, and stories will be made up to try to explain what the thing was. Little by little, as more and more people come to see them and photograph them, more stories and ideas about us outsiders will be made up, more myths and beliefs created to explain this all. Meanwhile, we outsiders will just look on in fascination, as if they’re animals in a zoo or new-found species of an organism.

But I think the best thing to do is to just leave them alone and pray for their souls. And rather than bother about evangelizing them, we should start off by doing missionary work in China and other like places. When the times comes, I’m sure the Church will send missionaries to the tribe. Until than, let’s just leave them alone and pray for them, entrusting them to the Mercy of God.

 

[Steven_John]

Steven John lets just hope that these tribes dont learn about Islam…
Killing themselves to express there point of view or kill eachother for having a dif interest would certainly wipe them all out.
Then all them years of survival would have just been a waste!!!

:knight1:

And you connect this to the posts i have made how?

 

[Steven_John]

I accept you as a human being and an individual who is somewhat affiliated with the religion of Islam.

I am grateful now we are getting close to understanding. My Catholic parish has introduced me to the Islamic community here and we are encouraged to build understanding between us.

I don’t consider someone like you who mixes tenets of Catholicism with Islam to be authentically Catholic.

I dont know what tenets i have mixed in my posts, but i don’t need you to see me as an authentic Catholic nor have i claimed to be.
If it is not too much trouble can you quote from this thread for me. I am not real educated as i goofed of at school due to learning disability.
If you do this for me it will help me grow in faith and help me communicate better in the future. so far in this thread i feel bashed.

Looking back at your previous posts does reveal to me your affiliation with Islam. Again, stop with the intellectual dishonesty and call a spade a spade.

Help me out so i can be an “honest person” what was it you are saying i am saying.

That said, I’d rather this foreign tribe be left to themselves or those native to the region correspond with them and not westerners.

I respect what you say is for you and has validity, in context , see early posts the bible says to share the gospel.

And no, ‘Peace be upon him’ is common terminology amongst Muslims when they speak about Jesus. I know this from experience as I’ve been approached by a couple of Muslim Evangelists in my time. Never have I heard such words spoken by authentic Catholics.

Again i never claimed to be an authentic Catholic but like to show respect for the messengers and teachers that made sacrifice for me. I dont say every one needs to do this and that not doing it does not imply disrespect. the reference i use is peace be with him.

It means what it means. That you don’t call a spade a spade about your religious affiliation therefore proving you to be dishonest.

You say i am dishonest you have never desputed the content of my posts only what religion i am.
I have clearly not claimed to be Catholic or Islamic.
I have said i aspire to submit to God.

In the interested of transparency

I was born of Catholic Father C of E mother
Had devout Catholic grand parents for whom i give thanks to God
I had an uncle who was a Christian brother
I have an Aunty who is a good Samaritan nun
My wife is Catholic she went through RCIA after meeting me
I raised 2 daughters as Catholic
I am a vincentian
I work for Centa Care (Catholic social services)
I am actively involved in my local parish
I am active in our Diocesan planning assembly
and the list goes on.

You’re not fooling anyone with the emotional platitudes so please go look for Muslim converts elsewhere and on a non Catholic site. You really are transparent.

Why do you say i have tried to make Muslim converts?
Please offer some proof now.
My God says we are not to bare false witness.

I have never made shihada so but if God calls you to thats your choice. I am willing not to decide your religion for you.
I am only commanded to offer you the truth as i see it.

If i see Gods truth in Islam i will embrace stand for it as i stand against untruth.

Jesus (pbwh) stood for truth and against false hood and said he is the way.

All of my posts i have tried to be open and honest, i do not see that i need to back up the posts with my life story.

I have put it here for your benefit so you do not bare false witness of me.

I would have liked to just post without needing to be in a box.
I get things wrong and need the help of people to learn not to be bashed by narrow minded assumptions.

Authentically MY GOD IS YOUR GOD WE JUST DON’T SEE IT
Peace be to all of you.

 

[Steven_John]

Dear Sam and others,
sorry to have been a respondent to hijacking your thread,

Now back to the jungle

 

[Ronald_E]

It’s uncertain from what I have read whether they are truly isolated or not. But it is highly likely that isolation is, in the long run, not good for a people, unless somehow they are hermitically sealed into a sort of “human zoo”; something that’s not likely possible.

Some scholars maintain that tribes such as this are remnants of much larger tribes that inhabited the Precolumbian Amazon Basin. They did not, after all, spontaneously generate where they are; they came from somewhere. It is increasingly believed by anthropologists that both North and South America had massively greater Precolumbian populations than are recorded, but because human diseases introduced by Europeans and Africans proceeded well ahead of them; sometimes centuries ahead, native populations in many places were reduced to tiny remnants.

Those tiny remnants, it is believed, “went primitive”, not out of choice, but out of sheer poverty of means that frequently attends tiny populations.

It appears to be the case that the immune systems of Amerinds vs. Europeans, Asians and Africans are genetically different; more geared to parasites than to microbes.

There is really nothing judgmental to say about the phenomenon. Europeans, Asians and Africans had traded diseases among themselves for millenia, and accrued widespread immunity or resistance to microbial diseases. Amerinds, however, were likely descended from small groups that became isolated in the Americas hundreds of thousands of years ago. It was inevitable that sometime or other, some group of Europeans, Asians or Africans would land on the shores of the Americas and spread diseases to which the Amerinds had little defense. Likely, by now, exposed native Americans have acquired most immunities by simple survival of those with the most adaptable systems.

If all that is true, it is no kindness to attempt to isolate people such as these. Sooner or later, they will be exposed to Eurasian/African disease, if only by killing and eating some domestic hog gone feral. (The likely fate of the Mississippian cultures) I’m with the previous poster who opined that they should be introduced to at least some kind of medically supervised contact.

An excellent resource related to your post is the book 1491 by Charles Mann. There are some fascinating discoveries revealed in this book.
I haven’t read all the threads. Please pardon me for jumping in.

 

[Valke2]

Since it will cost money to keep them isolated, by not exploring for oil, I think we can assume that they won’t remain isloated for long.

 

[Steven_John]

Since it will cost money to keep them isolated, by not exploring for oil, I think we can assume that they won’t remain isloated for long.

That is the sad truth.
Money will be the influential motivator at some point of contact with these people.