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pnewton
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Wouldn’t that hurt a lot? Oh, sorry. I misread it “laying prostate”.
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Shellie
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demerzel85
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Actually no, the dancing in the Bible is vastly different from how Liturgical Dance is done, and the reasons behind it are also different.
Nothing should be added to the Liturgy. The gesture in itself does not add anything to the Liturgy. Hand gestures are more for emphasis and it is all well and good that one truly means “Et cum spiritu tuo”.
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pnewton
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netmilsmom
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Well, actually no, you are incorrect.
Liturgical Dance is a means of worship and celebration. No difference in mass than in the Bible. Innovative Catholics have modernized the dance for the liturgy and innovative Catholics have modernized the lifting of hands to the Lord in the liturgy. Adding this or that on private interpertation rather than what the Vatican tells us is just that, private interpertation. Good rationalization though.
Huh?
You have totally contradicted yourself.
The gesture does not add anything to the liturgy but yet gives emphasis to the phrase in the liturgy?
Where else do you ever respond to someone saying, “The Lord be with you.” with “And also with you.” except in the liturgy?
I don’t often hear that around town except at mass.
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netmilsmom
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"Shellie:
If you do it in Mass only, it’s a liturgical act.
If you do it outside of Mass, (such as bowing you head to the name of Jesus in the Hail Mary) it’s a pious custom.
Unless of course you do the Orans to pray outside of Mass. In the liturgy this is a Priestly gesture and not allowed to be done by the Laity in the liturgy. It was never directed to them in any Vatican document.
As my six year old would say, “Easy squeezie”
If you do it in Mass only, it’s a liturgical act.
If you do it outside of Mass, (such as bowing you head to the name of Jesus in the Hail Mary) it’s a pious custom.
Unless of course you do the Orans to pray outside of Mass. In the liturgy this is a Priestly gesture and not allowed to be done by the Laity in the liturgy. It was never directed to them in any Vatican document.
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netmilsmom
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Btw, zinger of a typo!!!
Good catch. Got to have my fingers fly a little slower and proofread better.
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pnewton
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When I pray with my family we hold hands, so that makes holding hands during the “Our Father” a pious act, at least for my family. I had never heard about bowing every time Jesus is mentioned until I became catholic, though. I see the point about the orans position, although I do know many who were brought up praying that way all the time, even in private.
I am strange as the “also with you” gesture though. I usually just do one hand without thinking. Like I said, I subconsciously use my hands when I speak.
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MusicMan
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Could someone explain to me exactly what has motivated them to raise their hand(s) up when they say, “And also with you”? Every justification offered here seems rather after-the-fact. As in, “We do this, and we don’t know why, but the Bible says we can, see! Yet, we don’t actually know why we started doing this.”
I’ve actually heard worse than just the gesture. I was home visiting the parish I grew up in some weeks back. This is a fairly orthodox parish, with a very holy and reverent priest. I heard some old lady three or four rows back always respond with, “And also with you, Father!” What? Where does it say that in the Missal? This is representative of a flawed understanding of the Mass. I almost went back to tell her to shut up, but then I realized how equally wrong such an action would be.
Also, the bow at the words of the Incarnation is not a simple bow of the head. It is supposed to be a standard bow at the waist.
I’ve actually heard worse than just the gesture. I was home visiting the parish I grew up in some weeks back. This is a fairly orthodox parish, with a very holy and reverent priest. I heard some old lady three or four rows back always respond with, “And also with you, Father!” What? Where does it say that in the Missal? This is representative of a flawed understanding of the Mass. I almost went back to tell her to shut up, but then I realized how equally wrong such an action would be.
Also, the bow at the words of the Incarnation is not a simple bow of the head. It is supposed to be a standard bow at the waist.
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blackrobe
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Give 'em that “hang loose” gesture that’s so popular in Hawaii. There’s nothing in the GIRM that says you can’t. Or maybe a little antler dance.
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netmilsmom
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The pious act also goes along with what is traditional in the liturgy, not in your family. Otherwise we could easily introduce swaying or “Father, Son, Holy Ghost. The one who eats the fastest gets the most.” in there as well. Some things done in my childhood should NEVER be in the liturgy!
I think before Our Holy Father leaves us, all of this will be defined.
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Shellie
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It does to me.
But I didn’t write that. I quoted from Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University
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demerzel85
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Now one is taking the subject of private interpretation too far. One is not talking about the Liturgical Dance or the Orans posture here at all. Both of these are not allowed, and I stand by it. And one should also undertand that a Priest is allowed to use the older longer prayers from the old Missal silently.
This hand gesture in itself does not add any additional meaning to what one has said. This hand gesture is just a visible indication of what one has expresses verbally. And as I have said repeatedly, for the “Et cum spiritu tuo” I am not talking about the congregation using the Orans. Neither am I talking about the whole congregation doing it. It is a private devotion, and one of the hand gestures aside from clasping both hands together. Within the GIRM, it doesnt say you cant pray the Anima Christi after communion, but that doesnt mean you cant pray it. The same goes for the ‘prayer before a crucifix’.
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netmilsmom
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Both were privately interperted to be appropriate for the laity in the liturgy.
Both had to be ruled on seperately for some to take them as illicit.
“One is” doing the same with the hand gestures. The Vatican will not tell you not to use a prayer rug or shorkling is not allowed. It stands that nothing is to be added to the liturgy. Only traditional gestures and those specifically directed TO the laity should be used.
Look hard, the GIRM does not tell you that you CAN"T do anything. It directs what you can. As Cardinal Arinze stated, if you don’t see it, don’t do it.
Give me the reference in any Vatican document that directs the laity to use this gesture in the liturgy. Or to use it anywhere for that matter.
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mystified
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The “forehead, lippy, heart thing” does, indeed trace back to the pre V2 Mass. I recall we followed the celebrant’s example. For those unnerved by this, please don’t attend Mass in Spanish, where multiple “mini-crosses” are usually capped with a kiss on the thumb crossed over the index finger.
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maherite1977
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There are a couple people at my Parish who, even after the Lamb of God, are still shaking hands with people. I usually am on my knees during the Lamb of God and have, a couple times, had the couple try to shake hands with me when I am in a state of prayer. Still trying to find an easy way to tell them that it is really inappropriate to be doing such a thing.Shaking one or two people’s hands at the Sign of Peace in the NO is also fine - as long as it doesn’t go into five minutes of indiscriminate-free-for-all mode
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demerzel85
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Again the subject is not over the Orans and Liturgical Dance, nor is it over the private interpretation. The GIRM may not have it that one can bow down in prayer with eyes closed to better concentrate on the prayers verbalised by the Priests. But it does not add anything to the liturgy, and it also doesn’t mean that you can’t do it.
You are basically telling me that because the GIRM doesn’t say one can say the Anima Christi after Communion, one cannot say it after Communion. This is basically what I said previously.
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netmilsmom
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When a person closes his/her eyes in prayer, it is not intrusive to the liturgy. When one uses a hand gesture that is not in union with the rest of the congregation, it is. It is adding a private gesture to a communal prayer. Unless it says it, don’t do it.
The GIRM is not specific to the private prayer said after reception, but is specific to prayer after recieving. Unless you say it out loud, it is not a part of the Liturgy.
Unless one hides a gesture, it is obvious. If I shorkle during the Our Father, it is not allowed either.
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dessert
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Weeeeelllllll I have to say when you get visiting priests saying Mass you will get used to all the different techniques. The one we had last week raced through the we believe so fast I cloudn’t catch my breath and he did make the hand gesture but we didn’t know what to do I wasn’t sure what he wanted and he missed the payer at the end. Needless to say we were done 15 minutes early in time to get home to the game. Another one we had he did not say the we believe out loud we were really at a lost! EXcept for many who did know it is long. Personnally I like to hold anothers hand praying the Our Father I feel like I am really praying with some one. But if we don’t have many in the mass everyone is so spread apart you are only holding hands with the air? But gestures are gestures nah? Now when our sister does the mass one day we kneel and say the Our Father and she is ok with this and we all do so this is more about unity I guess! 
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Cavaille-Coll
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I hope you don’t mean what it sounds like you mean. Sisters cannot say Mass. A communion service can only be done by a lay person or religious if a deacon or installed acolyte is unavailable. I have heard the “unity” argument before, and unless they are referring to unity with the entire church, the argument fails. It doesn’t matter if everyone inside the parish church is doing the same thing if it is the wrong thing to begin with!
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