...and even more questions

[Miserissima]

Orthodoxy however, unlike America, is concerned with a kind of purity-- orthos (“right”, “true”, “straight”) + doxa (“opinion” or “belief”, related to dokein, “to think”). The desire is to remain true to one’s own patrimony. There are many reasons why praxis of the Latin Church crept into Eastern Catholic Churches. These practices helped the faithful during times of hideous persecution. However what is only say two generations in use, gets now called “tradition”. Add to that Latin Catholics who love our liturgy and want to keep up what they are familiar with, within a Church they are unfamiliar with but attracted to. Please don’t be offended, but for many of us these innovations are just as distressing for us as the things which many in the Latin Church now find offensive in the innovations of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

No offense taken. I recall the concersations I had with my fahter – he was OCA; my mother was Latin Rite.

As to people standing with votive candle holders, I am clueless. Maybe as you indicate it has something to do with making do with a borrowed space. Please go back for another DL, ask them, and come back and tell us.

I asked and regret that I didn’t bring a notebook.

I was informed that the three-armed votive holder was brought before the altar three times during the Divine Liturgy, once before the Epistle (and the other two times I do not remember). It was only to bring attention to the sanctuary that something solemn is happening, and not all Byzantine churches do it.

 

[Filii_Dei]

It seems that one can never have too many domes:

Church of Transfiguration on Lake Onega (Kishi Island) in the Republic of Karelia, Russia (built without nails)

Kit:

Why does ‘Transfiguration’ sound so appropriate?

 

[MonkMoses]

****QUOTE=Miserissima;9015057]No offense taken. I recall the concersations I had with my fahter – he was OCA; my mother was Latin Rite.

I asked and regret that I didn’t bring a notebook.

I was informed that the three-armed votive holder was brought before the altar three times during the Divine Liturgy, once before the Epistle (and the other two times I do not remember). It was only to bring attention to the sanctuary that something solemn is happening, and not all Byzantine churches do it.

Sounds like she is refering to the troika, the 3 branched candle often used in Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes during the epistle gospel and great entrance.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Sounds like she is refering to the troika, the 3 branched candle often used in Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes during the epistle gospel and great entrance.

I believe you are correct. In the Ruthenian church, the tradition has somewhat fallen to the wayside, but is occasionally still used during the Gospel reading, and always during great processions (Holy Week and great feasts / commemorations for which processions are customary).

 

[Vico]

Miserissima;9015057:

No offense taken. I recall the concersations I had with my fahter – he was OCA; my mother was Latin Rite.

I asked and regret that I didn’t bring a notebook.

I was informed that the three-armed votive holder was brought before the altar three times during the Divine Liturgy, once before the Epistle (and the other two times I do not remember). It was only to bring attention to the sanctuary that something solemn is happening, and not all Byzantine churches do it.

Sounds like she is refering to the troika, the 3 branched candle often used in Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes during the epistle gospel and great entrance.

These:

 

[5Loaves]

Sounds like she is refering to the troika, the 3 branched candle often used in Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes during the epistle gospel and great entrance.

And so then who would be holding the troika? Would it be the deacon?

 

[MonkMoses]

And so then who would be holding the troika? Would it be the deacon?

No not the deacon…from what I have seen it is usualy a kid…most often a girl who holds the troika in the center of the church during the epistle gospel and great entrance. I have only seen this in Greek Catholic churches…not in Orthodox churches…I dont know where it comes from.

The troika is not the trikirion shown in the pictures in the other posts…it is a trident shaped candle or candle holder. Ill see if I can find a picture tomorrow.

 

[Patchunky]

No not the deacon…from what I have seen it is usualy a kid…most often a girl who holds the troika in the center of the church during the epistle gospel and great entrance. I have only seen this in Greek Catholic churches…not in Orthodox churches…I dont know where it comes from.

The troika is not the trikirion shown in the pictures in the other posts…it is a trident shaped candle or candle holder. Ill see if I can find a picture tomorrow.

What you’re talking about is a TROJCA or TROYTSA, a 3-branched candle.

This is tradtionally carried to the front of the church during the Gospel, Great Entrance, Creed, Consecration and Our Father in the Ruthenian Rite. Traditionally, this was carried by a man and was considered to be a VERY great honor.:byzsoc:

Some Ruthenian parishes and some ACROD parishes have been allowing teenagers to carry the Trojca to get them more involved in the Divine Liturgy.

BTW, troika usually refers to a sled pulled by 3 horses

hope this helps…

 

[Patchunky]

http://holoviak.com/images/T-55.jpg

this ia a trojca

 

[Miserissima]

Sorry, everyone, that I wasn’t clearer. It was not the candle you describe, but three red votive cups in a stand (not the triple taper).

It is possible that the votives are substitutes for the three-armed candle; I will ask (and snap a pic) next Sunday.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Sorry, everyone, that I wasn’t clearer. It was not the candle you describe, but three red votive cups in a stand (not the triple taper).

It is possible that the votives are substitutes for the three-armed candle; I will ask (and snap a pic) next Sunday.

Are you speaking of the fixtures behind the altar?

 

[Miserissima]

Are you speaking of the fixtures behind the altar?

Nope. It is kept on a table behind the cantor. Three different (lay) persons at three different times pick it up and stand in the main aisle with it (one of those times being at the Epistle).

I added an attachment of an item that gives an abstract idea what it looks like (but the actual votive candle holder has more filigree in gold, red votive cups, and a more highly decorated stem).

 

[Patchunky]

Same thing but done a little more simply, in a way this mission parish can afford. The traditional trojca can be a bit on the pricey side.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Same thing but done a little more simply, in a way this mission parish can afford. The traditional trojca can be a bit on the pricey side.

Yes, an economical substitute for a Trojca (congrats on finding a nice photo to post of a Trojca! I tried in vain …).

BTW - in addition to giving the young lads an opportunity, there are a number of parishes (my own included) that bestow this honor upon the fine ladies of the congregation (those both young and young at heart).

 

[Miserissima]

Same thing but done a little more simply, in a way this mission parish can afford. The traditional trojca can be a bit on the pricey side.

Cool; thanks!

So what are the times this comes forward, and why? Again, I didn’t get much of what was explained to me…other than it is held to bring attention to what is going on “up front.” Is there anything else?

I’m also guessing that the trojca itself is symbolic of the light of the Trinity, right?

 

[Patchunky]

Cool; thanks!

So what are the times this comes forward, and why? Again, I didn’t get much of what was explained to me…other than it is held to bring attention to what is going on “up front.” Is there anything else?

I’m also guessing that the trojca itself is symbolic of the light of the Trinity, right?

Trojca means “three” (3) as in the Trinity and that is what it represents.

It traditionally brought forward at the reading of the Gospel, the Great Entrance, the Creed, the Consecration and the Lord’s Prayer.

Hope this helps…

 

[Miserissima]

Hope this helps…

It certainly does, Patchunky! You’re always a great help and I appreciate your posts!

 

[Patchunky]

Yes, an economical substitute for a Trojca (congrats on finding a nice photo to post of a Trojca! I tried in vain …).

BTW - in addition to giving the young lads an opportunity, there are a number of parishes (my own included) that bestow this honor upon the fine ladies of the congregation (those both young and young at heart).

That’s available from Holoviak’s Church Supply holoviak.com/

I"ve also seen churches use wooden candlelabra from Western Ukraine with the smaller decorated beeswax candles.

We usually have a different person each Sunday. Occasionally we’ll have a Dad carry the trojca and his kids carrying other candles go up to the front. We do have the ladies chant the Epistle but haven’t started with the trojca just yet, too many Baba’s to deal with…

 

[ByzCathCantor]

That’s available from Holoviak’s Church Supply holoviak.com/

I love Holoviak’s - forgot to look there

Miserissima: indeed it is representative of the presence of the Trinity, God dwelling among us in the course of the Divine Liturgy.

If you have been to the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, you would have been struck by the use of a single candle in between the Old Testament readings, when the priest elevates it and chants “Let us be attentive! The Light of Christ enlightens everyone!”

The use of the Trojca for readings of the Word remind us of the source of the Word and that our Truine God is ever present in the Word. Likewise, in other instances, we are reminded of the action of the Holy Trinity in that particular context of Divine Liturgy.