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simplynoone
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Paul’s image as a man was conforming to the image of God. Satan is the prince of this world and he hates God. The more a person conforms to the image that satan hates the more one will be hated by those who he lord’s over.
Seriously now… do you really think any one will EVER succeed to conform to God? It is impossible… He has no image in which we could conform to.
Ever read Deuteronomy?
As for Satan… well, “he” is only a conceptual metaphor for what is inherently a part of us. Without “Satan”… we would not have free will.It is our own mind at work that has been labeled “Satan” in order to be understandable.
I have some Ideas of it’s meaning but am all ears for new ones.
It is saying that your understanding of the words of the Tanakh is correct when it testifies to what you know is Truth both SUBJECTIVELY as well as OBJECTIVELY.
I conceptualized sin in a broad and encompassing way. The general mindset that doesn’t necessarily appear wicked but is, in the end, without life.
human life centered on temporary pleasures with little or no consideration for eternal reality.
Geez! Just live your life. Do you know anything about the formation of the governmental system (Constitutional Republic) this country (America… assuming this is your residence as well) was founded on? (If you think we are close to it now, then you do not). It was based on the Tanakh. It promoted PERSONAL FREEDOM to pursue happiness SO LONG AS one does not violate another’s right to pursue their happiness.
So… let’s take this so called war on drugs for instance. Since this is not something I do in my own personal life, I feel I am an objective voice here…
It is only a war for the sake of those who are making the money off of it. I am a HUGE advocate of people having the right to consume what they so choose. In fact, I think if this freedom were again allowed, there would be less abuse and crimes. Of course, my view doesn’t bring in the revenue for those who are abusing power.
Many things considered sin are only considered so for purposes of those in power who wish to maintain that position. It is the ignorant they are able to manipulate to continue their abuses and oppressions. I actually do not hate to be the one to break this to you all… Christianity is full of the ignorant. If you have to have rules to govern the lives of others… it is more of an admission of your lack of ability to govern your own self. Evolving involves growing up. What good are all those fighting to impose their own personal rules on the rest of the people? You are only admitting to your own need to be controlled…
Do I do drugs? Not at all… I don’t have the time or even desire to change my state of mind. Do I call those who do such sinners?? Not at all… they are only sinners when they commit an offense to another… in other words, they have the right to impose whatever they so choose on their own life for the sake of THEIR happiness so long as it does not impose on the pursuit of another to choose their happiness.
Anyway… I believe in personal responsibility and not handing it off to everyone else OR imposing on another’s right to govern their own life.
Because the Prince of this world and the people who conform to it point their fingers and mock anything holy.
After reading Isaiah 45:12,18, I am assuming you would appreciate some grace offered to change your opinion of the above, no? I will offer it to you. I understand why you hold to the view you have now… I only hope that you can see through your OWN mind the Truth that is there in front of our eyes in the Tanakh.
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simplynoone
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The Prophets who were sanctified by various means for their mission were conformed to the image of God. Pridefull people mock what they don’t understand. Remember the story of the gang of boys making fun of one of the OT prophets? A she bear slaughtered them. Their fingers were broken.
**Yes… this is Elisha you are speaking of… right after Elijah got taken away. They were making fun of his bald head… thus, I take it as conceptual metaphor of how it is the Jewish have been treated for what it is that is written in THEIR Scriptures… their honesty… their ability to say, “hey! we know! we relate to you all!” and yet being judged harshly by the world for the same things that we ourselves do not wish to be judged so harshly in. **
I’ll give it my best shot.
Well, that is all I ask of you.
If I were in hell I would look on evereything with hate.
Really? I found myself FINALLY looking at everything with understanding and not hate.
In hell I would find that I may have had God at some time in life, but He never had me. God would say to me " I never knew you".
What I heard? "You are as I made you and I called it good."
Not to worry about hijackers. For those who trully possess truth they applaud it wherever they may find it knowing it belongs to them.
**And does “your truth” speak to what you REALLY know? Do you believe in physical resurrection? If so… I will contend with your position that you REALLY know it to be Truth. Rather you were told it was by man and believed it without any knowledge that it actually is… only one example, mind you. **
I do appreciate your kindness to discuss all this with me by the way.
**Yes… this is Elisha you are speaking of… right after Elijah got taken away. They were making fun of his bald head… thus, I take it as conceptual metaphor of how it is the Jewish have been treated for what it is that is written in THEIR Scriptures… their honesty… their ability to say, “hey! we know! we relate to you all!” and yet being judged harshly by the world for the same things that we ourselves do not wish to be judged so harshly in. **
I’ll give it my best shot.
Well, that is all I ask of you.
If I were in hell I would look on evereything with hate.
Really? I found myself FINALLY looking at everything with understanding and not hate.
In hell I would find that I may have had God at some time in life, but He never had me. God would say to me " I never knew you".
What I heard? "You are as I made you and I called it good."
Not to worry about hijackers. For those who trully possess truth they applaud it wherever they may find it knowing it belongs to them.
**And does “your truth” speak to what you REALLY know? Do you believe in physical resurrection? If so… I will contend with your position that you REALLY know it to be Truth. Rather you were told it was by man and believed it without any knowledge that it actually is… only one example, mind you. **
I do appreciate your kindness to discuss all this with me by the way.
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Benadam
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You see a beautifull pattern that stretches to the western horizon written by the lives of the Hebrew people, you even call what they say is true Truth, but don’t believe them at all. Now I’m curious.
Probably not as well as I should.
Sounds a bit Luciferian.As for Satan… well, “he” is only a conceptual metaphor for what is inherently a part of us. Without “Satan”… we would not have free will.
There is an image of good you are seeking. You are submitting to it unconsciously. You’ll see what it looks like in the end. Even animals seek good. It’s just determined for them by corporeal organs that respond involuntarily to their environment governed by the essence of their particular species. We seek it on a different level and if we are aware eneogh we value our own image. Then the source of it’s value, as awarweness in truth develops, shifts from the eyes of others to an image that doesn’t grieve ourselves. A well worn path ( universal human experience) that leads to the love of Truth. Most human lives are forming images of good they are not conscious of. Not because the good is transcendent but because of having no image consciously attached to it.
Our image will be complete when our earthly life ends. The last stroke of our name is written. I take for granted you accept that your life’s unique fingerprint is forever etched on the pattern of human life because you recognized beauty in the pattern etched by the Hebrews. Please forgive my rant. The evil spirit has an image. It’s kept in darkness. And that’s another rant entirely.
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Indeed, Western culture, it’s taboos and inhibitions, the stimulus it seeks, all the archetypes that govern it subliminally were put there by Moses. OTOH the Jewsare hypersensitive to sin and it’s punishment as communal. Their perspective is counterculteral to the personal freedom you are promoting.
I agree the effort has become institutionalized and birds build nests in it feeding offspring.
Check out Portugal for a working model of shifting the approach to managing the drug problem.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/03/14/portugal/
What if it makes me happy to neglect the condition of my tires?Anyway… I believe in personal responsibility and not handing it off to everyone else OR imposing on another’s right to govern their own life.
You have to look into that more. In fact the way you live now will shape the DNA pattern of your offspring for generations. That’s a physical reality that should move anyone to rethink that “I can choose whatever good I wish as long as choosing it doesn’t hinder the availability of the goods you seek to choose” outlook. What’s good is good for all humans.
Funny, a deeper meaning to that two sided scroll was demonstrated to me when I read that. Here, I read your words to me in awe. A bit taken back that you would write them to me because within them is an image of me that I don’t see, because it’s the image in my mind of you.
I wish I had more time. I enjoy a good easy going conversation about deeply personal matters.
I would enjoy exploring how you believe something is beautifull and true and yet not believe what you see flows from Truth.Cheers
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simplynoone
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You see a beautifull pattern that stretches to the western horizon written by the lives of the Hebrew people, you even call what they say is true Truth, but don’t believe them at all. Now I’m curious.
While I give credit where credit is due… the beautiful pattern could and can only be weaved by the “hands” of God. Why? Because of that funny thing called Time. That we have a beginning and an end is the very thing that allows the credit for the creation of the People, Israel to go directly to God and no other. Their credit is for their willingness/acceptance and of course, their honesty.
Probably not as well as I should.
I pointed that particular book out because it is the one in which I personally came to understand the covenant; its importance; its Beauty; and why it is the covenant was never changed nor was it given to another (and in fact, never will need to be). What is special about Judaism is that it is Truth evolving in our minds through this People and Time. Note: Truth evolving (not changing) IN OUR minds… Malachi 3:6.
Sounds a bit Luciferian.
There is an image of good you are seeking. You are submitting to it unconsciously. You’ll see what it looks like in the end. Even animals seek good. It’s just determined for them by corporeal organs that respond involuntarily to their environment governed by the essence of their particular species.
Well now… come on. Seeking is an action with intent. An animal can seek for food because it needs food. They can not, though, seek Good. They can not conceptualize “Good” in order to be able to seek it out. I do not at all wish to compare us to animals. We were given something inherently unique to separate us from their kingdom… a mind.
We seek it on a different level and if we are aware eneogh we value our own image. Then the source of it’s value, as awarweness in truth develops, shifts from the eyes of others to an image that doesn’t grieve ourselves. A well worn path ( universal human experience) that leads to the love of Truth. Most human lives are forming images of good they are not conscious of. Not because the good is transcendent but because of having no image consciously attached to it.
Our image will be complete when our earthly life ends. The last stroke of our name is written. I take for granted you accept that your life’s unique fingerprint is forever etched on the pattern of human life because you recognized beauty in the pattern etched by the Hebrews. Please forgive my rant. The evil spirit has an image. It’s kept in darkness. And that’s another rant entirely.
If you don’t mind, read Proverbs 2:1-7… what is in there is where it is the eyes of my mind are focused. It is what I am seeking after. Seeking Good in and of itself for the purposes that most do seems a waste of time when the Creator was clear… His creation is good. So, all I have to do is look around me to see good. Nothing to seek really.
To understand the hows and the whys is what I want to know.
The image of good most have in their minds is an illusion based on their own desire… EXAMPLE: If you see a man “harming” physically another man, you, like most everybody, will indeed take that illusion of good in your mind and label him the opposite of that image… automatically. That is instinctual… But bring in the “hows” and the “whys” and you might find yourself needing to adjust your image of Good.
It is not that Good changes… but we have a mind to evolve our knowledge… to not base our judgments only at the instinctual level… to seek understanding. A wise king will seek to understand. That man who was harming the other could be a father trying protect his children’s lives and thus… he was being a good father.
Luciferian philosophy is mostly based on the fallen star idea written about in the Tanakh. … yes, the general consensus (from what I have been told… so I could be wrong here) is that their quest is to seek Wisdom by seeking understanding. That is about as much as I know in regards to those who label themselves as such.
the Jewsare hypersensitive to sin and it’s punishment as communal. Their perspective is counterculteral to the personal freedom you are promoting.
It is not that they are hypersensitive to sin in and of itself… rather they been created to be hypersensitive to the judgment of God (cause and effect)… we ALL have the ability to be aware of this judgment that has always been, even from the foundation of the world. What makes the Jewish HYPERSENSITIVE to it is their mindset … the path they have been led down for the specific purpose of keeping Beauty in the World for the rest of us.
We are all blessed because of their covenant with God. The most valuable treasures we have in the world today came via these People… they are found in the writing of the Tanakh.
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Benadam
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simplynoone
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What if it makes me happy to neglect the condition of my tires?
What’s good is good for all humans.
Perhaps you should expound on this for me considering most people’s definition of “good” is not something that I personally will be claiming as good for me (and I am human after all).
Funny, a deeper meaning to that two sided scroll was demonstrated to me when I read that. Here, I read your words to me in awe. A bit taken back that you would write them to me because within them is an image of me that I don’t see, because it’s the image in my mind of you.
I doubt it.
I wish I had more time. I enjoy a good easy going conversation about deeply personal matters.
Cheers
I am unsure what you are implying by your last statement about Truth. Perspectives change; Truth does not. This allows for us to evolve in the knowledge of the Truth.
I used the example of how we could see a man harming another … if that is all we see and never seek to understand, then we could judge that man as a brute calling it the truth. Would it be truth because that is what we see?
If you find out that the man was protecting his children, did the Truth change? … or was it your perspective that changed?
Take that to the Scriptures that are of the Jewish, the Tanakh. In the Law given by Moses and in the testimony of the prophets it is stated that God is not a man. If Jesus, a man, is God … THEN Truth changed and if that happened, God is like a man to be a liar for the Word says He will not change (Malachi 3:6).
The Sons of Jacob were given a solid foundation from which they could evolve in the knowledge of the Truth handed to them by their fathers. The Gentiles, Christians, have claimed that their Truth has been changed and even further, they are the new replacements for the sons of Jacob. Of course, any Jew with their mind on will know this is not the Truth… how can a son who understands his family (his own father’s teachings) be replaced by a stranger who disregards everything the father taught the son?
The truth handed down by the father did not and could not change. The son’s perspective will change, and so long as it remains in line with the Truth that his father gave, it allows him the ability to evolve (to grow) without losing his identity… his roots. Like a Tree planted by the Water
Brilliant really. And thus, Christianity is its own religion and is not a replacement for Judaism and in fact, has nothing to do with Judaism other than it was started out of jealousy with intent to replace Judaism.
That’d be a righteous judgment you know. Started from the “Old Testament”… the TANAKH, the foundation as opposed to starting from the New Testament. Perspective has a funny way of appearing as the truth to our minds.
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simplynoone
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I like that.
That’s exactly what happens when truth happens.
When Truth happens it is radically counterculture.
It is new, not known before.
Just because something is not known does not mean that it is new Truth. That is the point. Have you ever read Malachi 4? Just prior to what is said there… in Malachi 3:6 it states that the LORD does not change so that the sons of Jacob are not consumed.
What is counterculture to the Jewish is only a tool in helping them to grow in the Truth that was laid out by their fathers; however, it is NOT Truth in and of itself. Anything that promotes change to the WORD, what has already been laid out in the foundation written by their People, is not Truth for their People.
The Core of the foundation must remain the same or else they would be like the blind man who is describing the elephant and doesn’t realize he veered a bit from the path of his intended target until he reaches out at the snake. Just as he is about to describe what he THINKS is the tail of the elephant, he gets bit. Hosea 4:6.
The Law is the foundation given to them by God so they could grow in HIS Knowledge (psalm 19)… it is the “elephant”… and the prophets build the fences around the Law and the People so as to keep them from veering from off the intended path toward the foundations that belong to others… the prophets, in other words, put up hand-rails that could guide them along the path to understanding further the Law of God.
That Law is what makes Israel so special and so unique. It can not change… not any part of it. Anything that promotes its being changed is not and can not be Truth to the Jewish mind.
It is the “Gold Standard” of Knowledge for understanding and Wisdom, the Law that is. If you were given a pure chunk of gold, would you feel satisfied to trade it for a piece of bubblegum just because the bubblegum is new and everyone thinks it is fabulous? Same thing.
(Yeah… bubblegum was the first thing that came to my head… hehe)
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Benadam
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Benadam
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simplynoone;5462175:
Matthew 5-17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.
Agreed.
A tool can only point. For Christians, God validated the Jewish revelation of Truth in Person.
Exactly. The Jews waited in expectation of the full revelation of Truth. Christians believe that Jesus is that revelation and relatively few of them accepted it. Jesus fulfilled the universal expectations of the Prophets. Unfortunately in ways that did not fulfill the expectations of most Jews in authority at the time. Maybe their vision of happiness was an illusion?
Jesus taught the same. " I did not come to abolish the Law."
Matthew 5-17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.
*quote=simplynoone; What is counterculture to the Jewish is only a tool in helping them to grow in the Truth that was laid out by their fathers; however, it is NOT Truth in and of itself. *
Agreed.
A tool can only point. For Christians, God validated the Jewish revelation of Truth in Person.
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simplynoone
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The Laws of Justice that are founded in Wisdom are based on “Let the punishment speak to (more so than just “fit”) the crime.”simplynoone;5461853 said:
If you read the Laws that were given to the People by Moses, you will see that they were Laws of Justice to speak to a slavish mentality.
Part of “slavish mentality” is that the People feel guilty even when they have no reason to feel such. That comes from oppression. This is why the sacrificial Law was given. The People were allowed the “atonement” through sacrifice ONLY for the purposes of ridding NEEDLESS guilt (because a person that feels guilty is not useful except to be controlled and further, that makes them able to be oppressed more easily). NEVER WAS SACRIFICE ACTUALLY NEEDED TO BE FORGIVEN AND ESPECIALLY FORGIVEN OF GOD, who IS the ultimate Teacher of True Justice. Moses gave **these Laws to the People specificially **with the idea to break them of their slavish mentality.
For crimes that they committed against one another though, well, that called for a sacrifice of a more personal level. Each crime came with a judgment fit for teaching them (enlightening the eyes of their mind) why the act they committed is indeed wrong. Often, it called for not only reconcilation, but reconciliation several times over … and if they could not do this, they had to become the “slave” of the person they had wronged until they worked off their debt.
Now, of course, this works two-fold. 1. It would teach them to THINK the next time BEFORE they acted off of impulse and 2. It would teach them to not oppress others who wronged them personally. THIS was part of the enlightenment Jesus was bringing TO THE JEWS. Think BEFORE you act. Thinking is not the crime… but it is the actual act that brings forth the wrong DOING.
The other part of the enlightenment was to not hold others under oppression. The Egyptians kept the people in slavery based on guilt… most likely, it had to do with the help they gave the people during the time of famine. My guess, based on logical thinking, is the Egyptians said, we kept you alive and now the life of your people belongs to us (this is a common way of thinking to the ancients).
The sacrificial laws that were given for a slavish mentality had nothing to do with the actual sins, but rather only ever to do with helping the people work THROUGH their guilt.
The Judgments is what made the People an enlightened one.
But look at the Laws in America (while I do not agree with them, given the attitudes of most people, I do understand that they are necessary for teaching… though this does NOT negate that they were put in place with oppression of the people in mind)… Take for instance the Patriotic Act. This is not based at all upon Justice, but upon suspicious thinking. It is implicating that no one, not even you, is trustworthy and even worse, should an abuser of power (which I don’t think Bush was necessarily… he was too much of a “yes” man type) step into office, it gives that man the freedom to abuse the people based merely on speculation and/or lies.
Know anything of the Patriot Act II? Oh yes… just as it’s Parent Act was written prior to an event that allowed it to be passed, the Child has been written up and already is sitting as a bill waiting for the right opportunity to present itself so as to gain approval. This one is FAR more dangerous and has NOTHING to do with Justice whatsoever.
Justice, again, teaches. Why is it that a guy who liked to relax after work by getting “high” in his own home needs to be punished? And furthermore, what is putting him in prison teaching him exactly? To act like a thug? And who is paying for this “false justice”? How about ME… in the taxes I pay. How about Society… because he is reacting exactly how he has been treated when he gets out of prison. He will always have this “so called sin” on his record and be treated as a criminal in society and most of the people that were never criminals in the first place react, understandably so, as criminals because now it is harder for them to be seen as the equal they really are.
And who gets benefitted from this “system of false justice”?.. the Real Criminals… the politicians.
What is good for them HAS NOT been good for the people in America and so, your logic is flawed.
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simplynoone
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Christians claim to accept the revelation that Moses looked foreward to. " There will rise among you a prophet like myself. Listen to him." (pp)
And you know what… I don’t at all doubt that it was Jesus who was further enlightened to the teachings of Moses. Moses knew what he gave the People was gold suited for their mentality, but FIRST, they had to experience before they could understand. That is how Moses knew, when he gave them the Laws, that later, down the line, someone would have the perspective from THE RIGHT ANGLE.
Jesus had just the right perspectives in just the right that he suddenly understood the Laws of Moses and their intent. (this was part of the enlightenment he had as the other part had to do with what the prophets were trying to get across to the People… the purpose of diaspora and how it is relevant to what God is trying to do through the People, Israel).
Jesus was not here as THE Messiah to the world … that is the People, Israel. Jesus was like Moses, a teacher to his own People.
There are sons who say ‘no’ but change their mind and say ‘yes’ and there are sons who say yes but disobey.
But unless you are the parent of that child or unless that child breeches your personal freedom as a human being, what right is it of yours to correct them?
And furthermore, no one in their right mind would say that my son deserves to be replaced by a “yes child” should he defy me at times in his childhood, right?
Opposition of a child to their parent is a GOOD thing for the wise parent will see it as an opportunity to TEACH the child; to enlighten their eyes. If it were wise to replace my sons everytime they told me “no” so as to question what I am telling them to do, I would not have any children.
The behaviour of the first christians suggest that they considered the revelation they believed to be an authentic developement of the Jewish faith. Intentions to replace never existed.
and visa versa
Perhaps if the idea was that the greek were to take the enlightenment that the Jewish were given to have Laws of Justice written out catering to their own people’s slavish mentalities so as to escape the oppression that Rome was imposing for their own People, I could understand Christianity. But Paul made sure that this was not to happen when he distorted Judaism by interpolating Greek mythologies into a non mytholigical religion and then sold it to the world as replacement theology. The Gentiles took hold of that distortion and it has become the greatest source of oppression for the world today for not only the Jewish, but PEOPLE of EVERY nationality.
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Benadam
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But Paul made sure that this was not to happen when he distorted Judaism by interpolating Greek mythologies into a non mytholigical religion and then sold it to the world as replacement theology. The Gentiles took hold of that distortion and it has become the greatest source of oppression for the world today for not only the Jewish, but PEOPLE of EVERY nationality.
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simplynoone
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Benadam
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simplynoone
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Benadam
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swariffin
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What do you think God created human for?
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simplynoone
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simplynoone;5468100:
13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
This is the simple way to put it…
So that what He has created could be declared Good, of course. He is THE Creator and what is the purpose FOR a creator to create unless the creation has an admirer?
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