And just what does the catechism mean here?

[someperson555]

" 2289 If morality requires respect for the life of the body, it does not make it an absolute value.
It rejects a neo-pagan notion that tends to promote the cult of the body, to sacrifice everything for it’s sake, to idolize physical perfection and success at sports.
By its selective preference of the strong over the weak, such a conception can lead to the perversion of human relationships."

i came accross this passage as i was just reading random things in the catechism. i must say im not impressed, in fact im dissapointed. this passage implies that tryinjg to attain " physical perfection" is somehow sinful? i dont know what it means by " to sacrifice everything for its sake", i mean i guess obviously its immoral to sacrifice other people’s health and money for your body, but what if you manage out of your own personal income and free time? is that considered " sinful" too? i just cant imagine how the church of all institutions can say something so unidealistic. and what does it mean by " perversion of human relationships either" ??? isnt it GOOD to prefer the strong over the weak?

 

[Dranu]

i must say im not impressed, in fact im dissapointed. this passage implies that tryinjg to attain " physical perfection" is somehow sinful?

Though I am sure some things might be able to be worded better in the Catechism, I try to approach it with some humility and not assume the most pessimistic view of it even though I can be tempted that way.

I think it is pretty rationally clear 2289 is not condemning seeking physical perfection. It is condemning treating it as more important than it is and that seems about it. The body is of less value than the soul, and even though the body is very good and we ought to seek its perfection, “it is not an absolute value” since other things can be more important and we might have to sacrifice our bodies for those greater goods. One is neither to “sacrifice everything for its sake” nor “idolize” (that is worship or place it at too high a value) “physical perfection”. Wrong as it is to treat something as greater than it is, the Catechism also notes a dangerous consequence of such things. Since physical perfection is typically about physical beauty or strength (both very good things in themselves), “selective preference” for it over and above its actual value and subordination to spiritual goods causes you to value human beings on that level as if it is more important than their spiritual goods. Preferring the strong over the weak is good, but not in treating physical strength as more preferable than spiritual worth. Only animals can be reduced to those physical considerations alone.

So by all means go out and seek great health and aim high! Not only is it not a sin but in some cases it may be a duty. Just do not sacrifice your humanity to it since there are far more important things.

 

[puppypatrol]

Though I am sure some things might be able to be worded better in the Catechism, I try to approach it with some humility and not assume the most pessimistic view of it even though I can be tempted that way.

I think it is pretty rationally clear 2289 is not condemning seeking physical perfection. It is condemning treating it as more important than it is and that seems about it. The body is of less value than the soul, and even though the body is very good and we ought to seek its perfection, “it is not an absolute value” since other things can be more important and we might have to sacrifice our bodies for those greater goods. One is neither to “sacrifice everything for its sake” nor “idolize” (that is worship or place it at too high a value) “physical perfection”. Wrong as it is to treat something as greater than it is, the Catechism also notes a dangerous consequence of such things. Since physical perfection is typically about physical beauty or strength (both very good things in themselves), “selective preference” for it over and above its actual value and subordination to spiritual goods causes you to value human beings on that level as if it is more important than their spiritual goods. Preferring the strong over the weak is good, but not in treating physical strength as more preferable than spiritual worth. Only animals can be reduced to those physical considerations alone.

So by all means go out and seek great health and aim high! Not only is it not a sin but in some cases it may be a duty. Just do not sacrifice your humanity to it since there are far more important things.

 

[po18guy]

Seeking perfection of the body is prideful. Pride is a deadly sin.

 

[Dranu]

Seeking perfection of the body is prideful. Pride is a deadly sin.

Though I agree with your second statement, I do not think the first half of your statement is true. It is also no where to be found in the Catechism as far as I can tell.

Your body is a temple. Should we not seek to make it perfect (in complete accord with God)? It is only sinful when in this quest you seek perfection of the body like an idol. It is prideful when you think you are of more human worth because of it, but that is not a necessary consequence of seeking a perfected body. One who seeks its perfection should be quite willing to let their body go if a greater good gets in the way and also to suffer well the fact that it will decay in this life. If you are too perturbed by old age and sickness it is a sign you might inordinately love your physical body (idolatry/vanity) or perhaps a lack trust in God’s providence.

God put in us both the love of physical perfection and the perfection in the physical. Neither are evil in themselves, they only become evil when they are loved when and where they ought not be.

 

[FCEGM]

Seeking perfection of the body is prideful. Pride is a deadly sin.

:sad_yes: And vanity is its sickly sister.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

The answer to this conundrum is the order of charity. We are to love our bodies, but after certain things. As this article says (in a negative way),

Now at the risk of sounding like a dualist, let’s just say that the evils of the soul are more to be feared than the evils of the body; for the body is destructible, while the soul is not. For example, it is better to have good character and missing fingers than to have all ten fingers and a morally bad character. Moreover, the evils of the body are more to be feared than the evils of external things. Hence, it is better to lose all four tires than all five fingers. And so it follows that it is unreasonable to incur evils of the soul in order to avoid bodily evils, such as a physical beating or even death, or worse, evils of external things, such as the loss of money or popularity. So too it is unreasonable to endure bodily evils in order to avoid the loss of money or honors from those of questionable character.

But the one lacking fortitude loves “external goods” and the goods of the body (temporal goods) more than his character, more than the common good, and more than the sovereign good, namely God. His love is thus disordered.

 

[someperson555]

Though I am sure some things might be able to be worded better in the Catechism, I try to approach it with some humility and not assume the most pessimistic view of it even though I can be tempted that way.

I think it is pretty rationally clear 2289 is not condemning seeking physical perfection. It is condemning treating it as more important than it is and that seems about it. The body is of less value than the soul, and even though the body is very good and we ought to seek its perfection, “it is not an absolute value” since other things can be more important and we might have to sacrifice our bodies for those greater goods. One is neither to “sacrifice everything for its sake” nor “idolize” (that is worship or place it at too high a value) “physical perfection”. Wrong as it is to treat something as greater than it is, the Catechism also notes a dangerous consequence of such things. Since physical perfection is typically about physical beauty or strength (both very good things in themselves), “selective preference” for it over and above its actual value and subordination to spiritual goods causes you to value human beings on that level as if it is more important than their spiritual goods. Preferring the strong over the weak is good, but not in treating physical strength as more preferable than spiritual worth. Only animals can be reduced to those physical considerations alone.

So by all means go out and seek great health and aim high! Not only is it not a sin but in some cases it may be a duty. Just do not sacrifice your humanity to it since there are far more important things.

i see. so if i understand correctly, it is not a sin to want to perfect your physical body if it does not take time away from our obligations to the faith? so in other words, lets say a person spends a great deal of his time and money on his health and fitness. but at the same he also meets all his daily obligations to other people and God. would this person still be sinning?

 

[someperson555]

Seeking perfection of the body is prideful. Pride is a deadly sin.

why do you think that? so basically youre saying that a virtuous body is mildly obese and balding? how is it prideful to want to make the most of yourself in every way? i dont know about you, but my life’s philosophy is to be excellent in everything. now ofcourse thats an impossible goal for anyone, but each and every one of us should definitely strive to attain perfection no matter what our limits are. i believe it was the ancient Greeks who thought that. be the best you could be regardless of your limitations. what is wrong with this world view?

 

[Della]

i see. so if i understand correctly, it is not a sin to want to perfect your physical body if it does not take time away from our obligations to the faith? so in other words, lets say a person spends a great deal of his time and money on his health and fitness. but at the same he also meets all his daily obligations to other people and God. would this person still be sinning?

No, he wouldn’t. But I think what the Church is telling us is that it’s not good obsess over our physical fitness to the exclusion of other more valuable virtues.

Also, not everyone is able to be as fit as those who are more robust in health. Those who are weaker cannot be thought less valuable because of it.

I’ll take myself as the example. I’m quite petite and never could compete in sports against others who were bigger and stronger than me. However, I am fairly intelligent and have other things I can contribute to society. My life cannot be viewed as less valuable than, say, an Olympic athelete’s. How about those in wheelchairs or the retarded? Are they to be written off because they can’t be as physically fit as other “normal” people? The Church’s reply is no, you see.

I hope that helps.

 

[someperson555]

No, he wouldn’t. But I think what the Church is telling us is that it’s not good obsess over our physical fitness to the exclusion of other more valuable virtues.

Also, not everyone is able to be as fit as those who are more robust in health. Those who are weaker cannot be thought less valuable because of it.

I’ll take myself as the example. I’m quite petite and never could compete in sports against others who were bigger and stronger than me. However, I am fairly intelligent and have other things I can contribute to society. My life cannot be viewed as less valuable than, say, an Olympic athelete’s. How about those in wheelchairs or the retarded? Are they to be written off because they can’t be as physically fit as other “normal” people? The Church’s reply is no, you see.

I hope that helps.

thank you, yes it does.
lol, i think you misunderstand my world view. i never said that we sould set a standard for perfection. but like i said to po18guy, it is everyone’s responsibilty to make the most of what they have. like a healthy person for example musat strive to be as healthy and fit as he can, while a person in a wheel chair must also strive to be as healthy and fit as he can. there should be no excuse not to maximize your potential. to put that into perspective, a person in a wheel chair who competes in the special olympics is far superior than the normal person who is overweight and lazy. its kind of like the story of the talents in the bible, Jesus gave some of us five talents, some three, and some only one. but Christ even demanded that the person who recieved only one talent make something of it. so wouldnt Jesus want us to make the most of whatever we have?

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

why do you think that? so basically youre saying that a virtuous body is mildly obese and balding? how is it prideful to want to make the most of yourself in every way? i dont know about you, but my life’s philosophy is to be excellent in everything. now ofcourse thats an impossible goal for anyone, but each and every one of us should definitely strive to attain perfection no matter what our limits are. i believe it was the ancient Greeks who thought that. be the best you could be regardless of your limitations. what is wrong with this world view?

None, of course:
It is not enough to do good things, but we must do them well, in imitation of Christ our Lord, of whom it was written: Bene omnia fecit----He did all things well. We ought, then, to strive to do all things in the spirit of Christ; that is, with the perfection, with the circumstances, and for the ends for which He performed His actions. Otherwise, even the good works that we do will bring us punishment rather than reward.----St. Vincent de Paul

 

[cjmclark]

" 2289 If morality requires respect for the life of the body, it does not make it an absolute value.
It rejects a neo-pagan notion that tends to promote the cult of the body, to sacrifice everything for it’s sake, to idolize physical perfection and success at sports.
By its selective preference of the strong over the weak, such a conception can lead to the perversion of human relationships."

i came accross this passage as i was just reading random things in the catechism. i must say im not impressed, in fact im dissapointed. this passage implies that tryinjg to attain " physical perfection" is somehow sinful? i dont know what it means by " to sacrifice everything for its sake", i mean i guess obviously its immoral to sacrifice other people’s health and money for your body, but what if you manage out of your own personal income and free time? is that considered " sinful" too? i just cant imagine how the church of all institutions can say something so unidealistic. and what does it mean by " perversion of human relationships either" ??? isnt it GOOD to prefer the strong over the weak?

The Catechism seems fairly cut-and-dried to me. It is stating that while we should of course care for our bodies, we should not become obsessed with them to the point of excluding all else. That is where the sin of pride (the reference to the “cult of the body”) comes in - people who do so often care more for their appearance (and the appearance of others) than they do for deeper, more substantial things (such as faith and virtue).

When it talks about sacrificing “everything for its sake,” it’s not talking about money…it’s talking about your personal faith and virtue.

As far as “prefer[ring] the strong over the weak,” that is a particularly un-Christian notion. We are called to protect and care for those who cannot do so for themselves.

why do you think that? so basically youre saying that a virtuous body is mildly obese and balding? how is it prideful to want to make the most of yourself in every way? i dont know about you, but my life’s philosophy is to be excellent in everything. now ofcourse thats an impossible goal for anyone, but each and every one of us should definitely strive to attain perfection no matter what our limits are. i believe it was the ancient Greeks who thought that. be the best you could be regardless of your limitations. what is wrong with this world view?

No, that’s ridiculous. God calls us to be good stewards of our bodies, just like He calls us to be good stewards of our families, our communities, the environment, et c.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to excel, so long as you do it to the glory of God, as without Him you wouldn’t have the ability to do so in the first place. If you choose to become a world-class bodybuilder or marathon runner or football player, there’s nothing wrong with that…as long as you give glory and honor where it’s due.

I once asked a non-Catholic Christian professional hockey player how he reconciled fighting during hockey games with his Christian faith. He told me that fighting was part of his job as a hockey player, and that God called him to be the best hockey player that he could be, so he was going to do so, even if it meant having to fight once in a while. Now if he was out there fighting just to glorify himself, then that could be seen as prideful and therefore sinful…but he does it to glorify God, so it isn’t. Not the best metaphor, but I think it applies.

 

[Della]

thank you, yes it does.
lol, i think you misunderstand my world view. i never said that we sould set a standard for perfection. but like i said to po18guy, it is everyone’s responsibilty to make the most of what they have. like a healthy person for example musat strive to be as healthy and fit as he can, while a person in a wheel chair must also strive to be as healthy and fit as he can. there should be no excuse not to maximize your potential. to put that into perspective, a person in a wheel chair who competes in the special olympics is far superior than the normal person who is overweight and lazy. its kind of like the story of the talents in the bible, Jesus gave some of us five talents, some three, and some only one. but Christ even demanded that the person who recieved only one talent make something of it. so wouldnt Jesus want us to make the most of whatever we have?

Yes, in my present state in life I am not able to do strenuous exercise, but I do Tai Chi, which is not so hard on the joints. I’ll never win a marathon, but it helps keep me healthy enough to do ordinary things in life such as climb stairs, and gives me more stamina.

 

[po18guy]

Though I agree with your second statement, I do not think the first half of your statement is true. It is also no where to be found in the Catechism as far as I can tell.

Your body is a temple. Should we not seek to make it perfect (in complete accord with God)? It is only sinful when in this quest you seek perfection of the body like an idol. It is prideful when you think you are of more human worth because of it, but that is not a necessary consequence of seeking a perfected body. One who seeks its perfection should be quite willing to let their body go if a greater good gets in the way and also to suffer well the fact that it will decay in this life. If you are too perturbed by old age and sickness it is a sign you might inordinately love your physical body (idolatry/vanity) or perhaps a lack trust in God’s providence.

God put in us both the love of physical perfection and the perfection in the physical. Neither are evil in themselves, they only become evil when they are loved when and where they ought not be.

We seek perfection of the spirit, while respecting the physical body that we inhabit on earth. Our Lord said that the flesh avails nothing. You might say that body builders have perfected their bodies. For what purpose? Show. Awards. Cash. A spiritual vacuum there.

 

[cjmclark]

We seek perfection of the spirit, while respecting the physical body that we inhabit on earth. Our Lord said that the flesh avails nothing. You might say that body builders have perfected their bodies. For what purpose? Show. Awards. Cash. A spiritual vacuum there.

Matthew 16:26 (NABRE):

What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?

Other translations use the word “soul” in place of “life.” The idea is the same…don’t forfeit your spiritual inheritance in the pursuit of worldly goals.

 

[po18guy]

Matthew 16:26 (NABRE): Other translations use the word “soul” in place of “life.” The idea is the same…don’t forfeit your spiritual inheritance in the pursuit of worldly goals.

This is the verse from Ezekiel that I was looking for:

Ezekiel 34:16

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
I will seek that which was lost: and that which was driven away, I will bring again: and I will bind up that which was broken, and I will strengthen that which was weak, and that which was fat and strong I will preserve: and I will feed them in judgment.

RSV-CE
I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the crippled, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will watch over; * I will feed them in justice.

King James Version (KJV)
I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

But, this is a caution toward humility, as was much of what our Lord spoke while on this earth.

 

[someperson555]

This is the verse from Ezekiel that I was looking for:

Ezekiel 34:16

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
I will seek that which was lost: and that which was driven away, I will bring again: and I will bind up that which was broken, and I will strengthen that which was weak, and that which was fat and strong I will preserve: and I will feed them in judgment.

RSV-CE
I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the crippled, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will watch over; * I will feed them in justice.

King James Version (KJV)
I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

But, this is a caution toward humility, as was much of what our Lord spoke while on this earth.

so the bible supports the proliferation of weaklings? this is really testing my faith. im sorry, but i can never agree with the above statements. how can the bible encourage people to be weak, it doesnt make sense. lol, it would be so funny to get to heaven and find out that its populated by middle aged gray haired people of moderate intelligence. so i guess thats something to look forward to lol. im sorry but thats not what people should be like.
I believe that:
strength is better than weakness
beauty is better than ugliness
health is better than sickness
intelligence is better than ignorance.

if thats wrong, then i dont want to be right.

 

[Dranu]

"someperson555:

I believe that:
strength is better than weakness
beauty is better than ugliness
health is better than sickness
intelligence is better than ignorance.

Of course all those things are true. The only danger suggested is valuing them above spiritual goods and thinking a person is of less worth when they are ugly, weak, or dumb. Mankind is created equal in a sense (though obviously that sense is not physical). Physical goods are lesser than spiritual goods. However, you do not have to take the opposite extreme and somehow think that means physical goods are bad, you just need to make sure you recognize their place. If you do body building, I do not think there is a thing wrong with that in itself, it only becomes wrong if you value this inferior (weaker and less intelligent) good above spiritual goods. You see, you value strength, intelligence, and beauty. Good, that is godly. Just remember in all of this:

The truest human strength is love of God (and what follows from it)
The truest human intelligence is love of God (and what follows from it)
The truest human beauty is love of God (and what follows from it)

So love your body. Workout and eat well unless it causes you to sin. Just know that the body and all temporal things, though wonderful, are less beautiful than a soul.

so the bible supports the proliferation of weaklings?

Well, the Church is definitely against Eugenics in the Nazi Germany type way if that’s what you mean. God calls us to love the weak and sick, but not because of their weakness. After all, Jesus did not tell the lepers to appreciate their sickness as something good but rather purified them of it as if it was an evil. However, he loved them despite such imperfections and arguably paid even more attention to them because of it. We are called by the Church to value our bodies which are the temples of the Spirit and will ultimately be resurrected. Eugenics, on the other hand, treats physical traits as the end all be all of mankind and as such is demonic. Beware the extreme of valuing the body too much but also beware of valuing it too little. Both are sin.

We seek perfection of the spirit, while respecting the physical body that we inhabit on earth. Our Lord said that the flesh avails nothing. You might say that body builders have perfected their bodies. For what purpose? Show. Awards. Cash. A spiritual vacuum there.

Honestly we are all called to certain variable goods in this life. I do not see why we should think that body building is somehow evil (and adding extra moral burdens on others can cause scandal). Obviously a lot of such people get caught up in vanity and pagan body worship, but people use a lot of good things badly. Of course it is sinful to love your body over your spirit, but such sin is not necessarily entailed by such things anymore than being a painter of landscape portraits shows you necessarily love nature over God.

 

[Mintaka]

There’s nothing wrong with being strong and healthy. (Heck, Jesus was a man with enough muscle to carry the Cross at least a little way, after having been beaten up all night and flogged the next day.) There’s nothing wrong with pursuing sports or health or what have you.

But we have to be prudent in the goals we pursue and the way we pursue them.

Realistically, even an Olympic athlete is not going to get up to the level of physical perfection. We live in a fallen world. We get injured, we get old, and even the very best of the best are not perfect.

Perfect is what our bodies will be after the Resurrection (if we are among those saved). Here and now, you can get to your current possible best, but not perfection. So if perfection is your goal, you’re going to be disappointed.

And the same thing goes with mental and other goals. We can aim high and get there, but perfect is a little too high. Speaking as a perfectionist, I can tell you that it’s a very bitter, depressing thing to expect and fail at.

Mind you, longing for perfection is natural, because we were created to be better than we are now. We yearn for what we were before the Fall, still half-expecting it to be possible, and we know that after the Resurrection, we will be even better than before the Fall. Just not yet.