Angels Choosing Not to Serve God

[JoeFreedom]

Since God is outside time, and is in the eternal now, and the eternal now means that no change is possible, and if the angels are also outside of time, how was it possible for the angels who fell, and became demons, to choose something that caused a change (the change being that they made the decision to no longer serve God and thus fell from heaven)?

 

[Matt241]

Perceptive question. I’m sorry to say that I don’t have an answer, but I’m following this thread in the hope that someone more knowledgeable than I might provide an answer.

 

[fliesnow]

The first thing to understand is how little the church truly asserts on this subject. Even Thomas Aquinas admits uncertainty on the subject.

Article 6 here:
newadvent.org/summa/1063.htm

TL;DR: Angels did not always exist and are a part of creation like we are, just not physical creation. The angels were created in one “moment” and then either fell or didn’t in another “moment”. These moments are not defined by a chronological time like ours, but instead by the mental states of the angels. The fall is not a rebellion with a date, but a rebellion of the mind.

The real problem is that we have a hard time picturing anything outside of our own 3-by-1 dimensional physical reality. The eternal now you referred to is analogous to a point in time but is not the same. Metaphysics is hard.

For some sympathy:

Edit: apparently I cannot post images yet. Here is the link:
imgs.xkcd.com/comics/flatland.png

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

Isaiah 55:8. My ways are not your ways, my thoughts Not your thoughts,

Reading the Bible helps with Questions such as this

 

[hu324b]

Maybe when God created the Angels he had to test them to see which of them were worthy - we do not know what reason the fallen angels choose to be against God - but there obviously was a choice. But we don’t really know.

I know nothing. Just a thought.

 

[mikekle]

Maybe when God created the Angels he had to test them to see which of them were worthy - we do not know what reason the fallen angels choose to be against God - but there obviously was a choice. But we don’t really know.

I know nothing. Just a thought.

Even if that were true, it would involve some time passing.

This is a great question I have never thought about.

What Ive always found curious was not that Satan rebelled, but so any other angels decided to side with him… They must have known something that led to them believe Satan had a chance of succeeding…what does that imply about God?

 

[Herculees]

Since God is outside time, and is in the eternal now, and the eternal now means that no change is possible, and if the angels are also outside of time, how was it possible for the angels who fell, and became demons, to choose something that caused a change (the change being that they made the decision to no longer serve God and thus fell from heaven)?

I would say that God gave the angels freedom just as he gave us freedom.

 

[STT]

Since God is outside time, and is in the eternal now, and the eternal now means that no change is possible, and if the angels are also outside of time, how was it possible for the angels who fell, and became demons, to choose something that caused a change (the change being that they made the decision to no longer serve God and thus fell from heaven)?

Add to this the fact that fallen Angels cannot beat God and have a damn destiny, being eternally in Hell. That doesn’t make sense specially when you consider the fact that Angels are intellectual beings.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Needless to say, this question makes my head hurt!

:banghead:

 

[hasantas]

Eternity include or surround all decisions made by angels or human. Angels were created in time and eternity surround all times without time. So what someone who had decided to do something wrong does not change eternity. Eternity has knowledge of that decisions which made in time.

In Islamic knowledge it is known that angels do not rebel God but some kind of Jinns rebel and they are called “satans”.

 

[John_Martin]

First, God is not in an “eternal now”. Now implies “before” and “yet to come”, meaning “time”.
It would be better to say, “The LORD (‘I AM’) knows all in a single (simple) knowing”, the big picture and all the individual parts of the picture.

As humans, we know in the “now”, yet what we are really doing is moving from “place to place” in the Single Knowing of God, the LORD.
Think about this: in the prayers in the Bible, especially in the OT, you see the person praying call for God to “remember something”, such as His love for Abraham or Jacob. But God always IS KNOWING is love for Abraham and Jacob. The person praying is actually moving himself into knowing God in that place of knowing. Why? because in that place of God knowing, God knows himself as merciful and forgiving, and the person praying wants to be in a place of mercy and forgiveness in God. We can join God in individual spots of his knowing, because we can only know individual things, “one at a time”. And that is how he saves us, by calling us to meet him in these parts of his knowing, but to stay out of the places where he is knowing wrath (he is always knowing himself loving, and always knowing himself wrathful, but we are not “all knowing”, so we can join him in the saving part of his knowing.

The angels were created, and infused with all their knowing immediately. One of the things in their knowing of all they know is that they were to be servants of God and servants of a “lower creature” (man, and The Man, Jesus).
In this instant of knowing, some saw this as good, desirable, and looked out from their knowing and “saw” God (knew God in himself, and themselves in him). Others “saw” that they desired only themselves, how good they looked in themselves and in what they knew, and did not desire to look away from themselves, but kept self-focus and never looked away. "I am beautiful; I am not going to pour my beauty out, my life out, into some other. (that is what service and love do - pour one’s whole being into the one loved).

Back to work; no time for more at this time.

 

[Della]

Great post, John Martin.

I just wanted to add my few thoughts.

We humans cannot possibly know how other sentient beings might perceive themselves and their relationship with God. Apparently, the angels saw, as John cited, and decided they would or would not serve God according to God’s purpose for them and for the whole creation God created/was creating. They saw that God would become man–a mere creature, lower than themselves. Most, 2/3s saw and rejoiced. 1/3 saw and said no.

God certainly knew which choice each would make, but God is not a tyrant who demands we agree with his decisions. Rather, he creates sentient beings and then lets them decide their own fate–for existence without God is the “outer darkness” and the “torment” of living for self alone–a self devoid of love for others, and not even for oneself, hence the sufferings they endure–which is their own choice.

 

[De_Maria]

First, God is not in an “eternal now”. Now implies “before” and “yet to come”, meaning “time”.

Actually, I think its a very good description and very close to “single knowing”. Now does imply before and after. But that is why it is delimited by the “eternal”. Thus, eternal now means that God knows everything immediately. One simple picture.

It would be better to say, “The LORD (‘I AM’) knows all in a single (simple) knowing”, the big picture and all the individual parts of the picture.

Except that God is the picture. And there are no parts in God. Remember that God is He in whom we live, move and are.

Acts 17:28New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being, as even some of your poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’

Now, if we think of time, we know that time is present, but seamlessly tied to past and future. By the time we say, “now”, the future has become the present and the present the past. Seamlessly.

As humans, we know in the “now”, yet what we are really doing is moving from “place to place” in the Single Knowing of God, the LORD.

That, is a concise explanation of Acts 17:28, above.

Think about this: in the prayers in the Bible, especially in the OT, you see the person praying call for God to “remember something”, such as His love for Abraham or Jacob. But God always IS KNOWING is love for Abraham and Jacob. The person praying is actually moving himself into knowing God in that place of knowing. Why? because in that place of God knowing, God knows himself as merciful and forgiving, and the person praying wants to be in a place of mercy and forgiveness in God.

That “place” of God knowing, is God, Himself.

We can join God in individual spots of his knowing, because we can only know individual things, “one at a time”. And that is how he saves us, by calling us to meet him in these parts of his knowing, but to stay out of the places where he is knowing wrath (he is always knowing himself loving, and always knowing himself wrathful,

Wrathful? That seems out of place. God is simple. God is not complex. He is not made of parts. There is not a loving place in God and a wrathful place in God.

but we are not “all knowing”, so we can join him in the saving part of his knowing.

Not, without His grace preceding us.

The angels were created, and infused with all their knowing immediately. One of the things in their knowing of all they know is that they were to be servants of God and servants of a “lower creature” (man, and The Man, Jesus).
In this instant of knowing, some saw this as good, desirable, and looked out from their knowing and “saw” God (knew God in himself, and themselves in him). Others “saw” that they desired only themselves, how good they looked in themselves and in what they knew, and did not desire to look away from themselves, but kept self-focus and never looked away. "I am beautiful; I am not going to pour my beauty out, my life out, into some other. (that is what service and love do - pour one’s whole being into the one loved).

Agreed. Very good way to put that.

Back to work; no time for more at this time.

Understand. Bye.

 

[John_Martin]

…
Except that God is the picture. And there are no parts in God. Remember that God is He in whom we live, move and are.
…
Now, if we think of time, we know that time is present, but seamlessly tied to past and future. By the time we say, “now”, the future has become the present and the present the past. Seamlessly.
…
That “place” of God knowing, is God, Himself.
…
Wrathful? That seems out of place. God is simple. God is not complex. He is not made of parts. There is not a loving place in God and a wrathful place in God.
…

God eternally knows himself loving Abraham.
God eternally knows himself destroying Sodom and Gomorrah.
God eternally knows a mountain.
God eternally knows Moses on the Mountain.
God eternally knows Elijah on the Mountain.
God eternally knows Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountain.

And these six entered into God’s eternal knowing in a moment of their temporal human existence, and perceived what God knows eternally - they saw and talked with each other.

(By the way, that is why Moses told Israel that another prophet was coming and to “Listen to him” - he overheard the Father speak to James Peter and John as he was departing to go back down the mountain “This is my beloved Son, listen to him”.)

 

[omgriley]

The philosopher Edward Feser has a lot to say on this subject. I suggest you read his article How To Go To Hell, in which he addresses this exact topic.

It does not have so much to do with time per se, as it has to do simply with angelic nature.

I’ll paraphrase from the article, although I highly advise reading it for yourself.

In essence, Angels, unlike humans, do not have a corporeal nature which allows them to experience multiple different habits or passions that can pull their wills in one direction or another. Instead, they have only one appetite, that of the Intellect and Will. This is because angels are creatures of pure intellect and will, and without any corporeal faculties. Because there is no competing appetite that can sway an angel in one direction or another, whichever direction it’s will chooses, it becomes immediately and irrevocably fixated in such direction.

Furthermore, humans learn and gain knowledge on sort of a curve. We uncover information as we progress, through trial and error and so forth. Whatever information an angel possesses, however, it possesses it immediately at the moment it comes into being. This is because there is no temporal or cognitive process by which an angel discovers new information. Thus, as Edward Feser suggests, there is also no correction of a cognitive process that has gone wrong. An angel simply knows what it knows and all of the consequences at the beginning and chooses what it perceives as it’s ultimate good all in one single act. An angel’s will is irrevocably set on what it chooses immediately upon its creation.

So, again, you really cannot look at this via a temporal lens, e.g. “God created the angels, then they learned who God is, then they got jealous, then discussed among themselves the best options, then elected Satan as their leader, then they decided they could “beat” God, only to find out later they were wrong.”

On the question of why an angel would choose such a thing? Well no one ever said an angel was incapable of being totally crazy. But alas, pride can infect us all. Once thy perceived something less than God as our ultimate end, nothing could change them.

 

[omgriley]

First, God is not in an “eternal now”. Now implies “before” and “yet to come”, meaning “time”.
It would be better to say, “The LORD (‘I AM’) knows all in a single (simple) knowing”, the big picture and all the individual parts of the picture.

Most theologians would agree on the phrase “eternal now.” It obviously is not meant to be taken as some kind of everlasting temporal moment. It’s simply a product of limited human attempts at describing how God sees creation.

 

[JoeFreedom]

The philosopher Edward Feser has a lot to say on this subject. I suggest you read his article How To Go To Hell, in which he addresses this exact topic.

It does not have so much to do with time per se, as it has to do simply with angelic nature.

I’ll paraphrase from the article, although I highly advise reading it for yourself.

In essence, Angels, unlike humans, do not have a corporeal nature which allows them to experience multiple different habits or passions that can pull their wills in one direction or another. Instead, they have only one appetite, that of the Intellect and Will. This is because angels are creatures of pure intellect and will, and without any corporeal faculties. Because there is no competing appetite that can sway an angel in one direction or another, whichever direction it’s will chooses, it becomes immediately and irrevocably fixated in such direction.

Furthermore, humans learn and gain knowledge on sort of a curve. We uncover information as we progress, through trial and error and so forth. Whatever information an angel possesses, however, it possesses it immediately at the moment it comes into being. This is because there is no temporal or cognitive process by which an angel discovers new information. Thus, as Edward Feser suggests, there is also no correction of a cognitive process that has gone wrong. An angel simply knows what it knows and all of the consequences at the beginning and chooses what it perceives as it’s ultimate good all in one single act. An angel’s will is irrevocably set on what it chooses immediately upon its creation.

So, again, you really cannot look at this via a temporal lens, e.g. “God created the angels, then they learned who God is, then they got jealous, then discussed among themselves the best options, then elected Satan as their leader, then they decided they could “beat” God, only to find out later they were wrong.”

On the question of why an angel would choose such a thing? Well no one ever said an angel was incapable of being totally crazy. But alas, pride can infect us all. Once thy perceived something less than God as our ultimate end, nothing could change them.

Thanks. So I guess Feser’s analysis begs the question. If the intellect is formed with all of the intelligence at a single moment instantaneously and knows all of the consequences at that same instant, it would then seem to be a matter of the will being the driving force, and not an issue with the intellect, yes? Especially if they have no error of intellect as Feser describes.

(*and to your second posting, thank you for understanding what I am trying to convey about the “eternal now”, I know eternity is not a spot in time, but one of the easiest ways us lowly humans can express the concept of eternity. Well, at least the ones who aren’t philosophical geniuses like Aquinas and such, am I’m certainly no Aquinas!)

 

[JoeFreedom]

Another intriguing point from Feser’s article “How to go the Hell”, he states, “Just as an angel, immediately after its creation, either takes God as its ultimate end or something less than God as its ultimate end, so too does the disembodied human soul make the same choice immediately upon death.”

What I’d like to focus on is the last part of that sentence, particularly what is in red and in bold. I’ve heard, not often, but heard nonetheless, that upon death is when we have that final choice to make. Now this is promising for those who choose a life of evil sinful ways and have a last moment opportunity to choose God. I can only conclude that some have been saved this way if we base anything on the odds and sheer numbers. But also it beckons the line of thought then, if we all get that “last chance opportunity” then why could one not lead a life of sin and choose God later by confessing sorrow at the last moment? (yes I realize there are many things wrong with this question, but the question is still posed)

 

[omgriley]

Thanks. So I guess Feser’s analysis begs the question. If the intellect is formed with all of the intelligence at a single moment instantaneously and knows all of the consequences at that same instant, it would then seem to be a matter of the will being the driving force, and not an issue with the intellect, yes? Especially if they have no error of intellect as Feser describes.

Well, based off Feser’s analysis of Aquinas, you cannot separate the will from the intellect as it pertains to finding fault in one and not the other. The will is simply directed toward that which the intellect perceives as its ultimate good. If the intellect takes something less than God for its ultimate good, then it would be the intellect which is wrong. The Will is simply directed toward the perceived good (yet objective wrong). Thus there can very well be an error of intellect.

Again, humans share this faculty with the angels as well. Our intellect can take something less than God as our ultimate good just as the angels can. However, because of our corporeal nature, we have many different sub-intellectual appetites which also drive our wills, like food and sex. And as Feser points out here, we can defeat bad habits —no matter how ingrained— if there are strong enough appetites to overcome them. But since the only appetite which drives an angel’s will is the Good perceived by it’s intellect, then there is absolutely nothing to counter that appetite. Whatever the angel perceives as its ultimate good, it becomes locked onto that and permanent habituation sets in immediately.

(*and to your second posting, thank you for understanding what I am trying to convey about the “eternal now”, I know eternity is not a spot in time, but one of the easiest ways us lowly humans can express the concept of eternity. Well, at least the ones who aren’t philosophical geniuses like Aquinas and such, am I’m certainly no Aquinas!)

No problem. I actually find that phrase to be really cool and trippy, so it helps me when I’m reflecting on the reality of God and all His infinite wonder and majesty.

 

[omgriley]

Another intriguing point from Feser’s article “How to go the Hell”, he states, “Just as an angel, immediately after its creation, either takes God as its ultimate end or something less than God as its ultimate end, so too does the disembodied human soul make the same choice immediately upon death.”

What I’d like to focus on is the last part of that sentence, particularly what is in red and in bold. I’ve heard, not often, but heard nonetheless, that upon death is when we have that final choice to make. Now this is promising for those who choose a life of evil sinful ways and have a last moment opportunity to choose God. I can only conclude that some have been saved this way if we base anything on the odds and sheer numbers. But also it beckons the line of thought then, if we all get that “last chance opportunity” then why could one not lead a life of sin and choose God later by confessing sorrow at the last moment? (yes I realize there are many things wrong with this question, but the question is still posed)

You make a good point. IMO, the soul which is habituated toward hating God during its life on earth will certainly have habits pushing it in that direction permanently upon death. However the soul, who at the moment before death, repents and returns to the Lord is given final graces powerful enough to overcome those lifelong habits. This goes back to humans, while on earth, having different appetites pulling in different directions. It’s quite possible that God grants the penantant soul the graces of recognizing his true and ultimate good as God. Thus the soul who converted on his deathbed will choose God in spite of his habits.

However, this is only possible if the the soul repents before death. After the choice is made.

I think that makes sense, right?