Angels falling from the sky

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treeleaf said:
Consider this: If I’d come on this forum in the previous Pope’s reign and said I didn’t believe in the existence of limbo, I would have been told I was wrong in no uncertain terms. The current Pope has now said it doesn’t exist. I just don’t see how anyone can be absolutely certain about some things (like the topic in this thread, who originally decided when souls came into being and how did they come to that conclusion?). I mean, someone obviously once said limbo existed and all Catholics must believe in it.
I don’t want to start a full-scale argument here as I’m out-numbered for a start;), and don’t want to cause any rifts, but just think the point I make is something to think about.
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Which do you have the specific problem believing: Church, Tradition, Magisterium? Or all three? which is more or less redundant
 
treeleaf said:
Consider this: If I’d come on this forum in the previous Pope’s reign and said I didn’t believe in the existence of limbo, I would have been told I was wrong in no uncertain terms. The current Pope has now said it doesn’t exist. I just don’t see how anyone can be absolutely certain about some things (like the topic in this thread, who originally decided when souls came into being and how did they come to that conclusion?). I mean, someone obviously once said limbo existed and all Catholics must believe in it.
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That’s inaccurate, actually. That unbaptised babies wind up in Limbo has never been a dogma of the Church; rather, it was speculation that a lot of people believed. The pope said recently that we have good reason to hope that those babies are in Heaven, rather than some place called Limbo. Neither of these positions has ever been declared The Truth, however, and the faithful are allowed to hold either position, as reason sways them.

As for the mistakes of clergymen past, well, moral character of a certain bishop or pope doesn’t make his words any less (or any more) true. But Christ did promise to be with His Church forever, so it seems unlikely that he would abandon it just because His earthly vicar acts immorally. Case in point: St. Peter.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
 
Zundrah said:
But I get told different things all the time…
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This is a good reason why it is important to always go back to the Catechism (the teaching of Apostles). The reason there are so many different denominations in Christianity is because there are as many different opinions as there are people. This is why Jesus had to appoint a teaching authority to guard the teaching.
 
treeleaf said:
Are you so sure the Church has had everyone’s best interests at heart throughout the ages when some of it’s doctrines came into being? I’m not, but that’s fine if everyone else is, just please respect that not everyone is the same and that doesn’t make anyone with slightly different views evil or outrightly wrong.
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What an odd statement to make for many reasons. It’s kind of hard to respect such a sad and wrong-hearted comment.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Yep that’s Adam, and God with all the unborn souls behind Him waiting to be born.
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Just as it’s a bit difficult to depict either in written or pictorial form God Who is Spirit without employing anthropomorphisms, so, too, depiciting God’s thought of Adam’s descendants before their creation necessitates showing something for the eyes to see. 🙂
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Yep that’s Adam, and God with all the unborn souls behind Him waiting to be born.
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Unborn souls? Perhaps the artist is referring to miscarriages? If not, and if that is suppose to be Adam, then definitely the artist must have been Mormon.
 
Zundrah said:
Unborn souls? Perhaps the artist is referring to miscarriages? If not, and if that is suppose to be Adam, then definitely the artist must have been Mormon.
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No on both counts. I’m sure you’ve heard of artistic license.

And I’m sure there is someone besides me on CA who has a background in the arts, and a far better understanding of Renaissance styles and meanings. But if I have to I’ll dig for it. 😛
 
Zundrah said:
Unborn souls? Perhaps the artist is referring to miscarriages? If not, and if that is suppose to be Adam, then definitely the artist must have been Mormon.
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Jennifer, please see my post above.
 
Stylites said:
What an odd statement to make for many reasons. It’s kind of hard to respect such a sad and wrong-hearted comment.
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Just as it’s kind of hard to respect comments like this that label other people’s comments. What’s so sad and wrong-hearted about it? The Church was at one time or another quite a war-mongering and treasure-gathering organisation. There are plenty of books on it’s history. I’d just like to know who makes some of the decisions on what we believe and how they come to these decisions, what’s so wrong with that? If noone questioned it, it would be no different to the moonies, or any of these strange cults, where people believe whatever they’re told without question or any sort of thought of their own.
 
treeleaf said:
Just as it’s kind of hard to respect comments like this that label other people’s comments. What’s so sad and wrong-hearted about it? The Church was at one time or another quite a war-mongering and treasure-gathering organisation. There are plenty of books on it’s history. I’d just like to know who makes some of the decisions on what we believe and how they come to these decisions, what’s so wrong with that? If noone questioned it, it would be no different to the moonies, or any of these strange cults, where people believe whatever they’re told without question or any sort of thought of their own.
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War-mongering? Treasure-gathering?

For a minute there I thought you were speaking of Communism in its many forms.

I don’t know what made you so anti-Catholic. But why don’t you ask an apologist if you truly seek knowledge and not simply wish to spread your own distaste for the Church?

We are required to believe and obey the Church teachings. Even a child can understand that.
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
War-mongering? Treasure-gathering?

For a minute there I thought you were speaking of Communism in its many forms.

I don’t know what made you so anti-Catholic. But why don’t you ask an apologist if you truly seek knowledge and not simply wish to spread your own distaste for the Church?

We are required to believe and obey the Church teachings. Even a child can understand that.
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I thought I was stating what I believe to be the facts, not spreading my distaste for the Church.If you can’t have a debate without throwing insults - “even a child can understand that” then perhaps this isn’t the place for me. I do truly seek knowledge - I find it amazing that you assume I don’t and that people get so shirty and abrupt with their replies. I did try asking an apologist my original question on this forum, but got no reply and found this particular forum quite interesting and responsive. But I think I’ll steer clear of it as I’m not up for these nasty toned replies.
 
treeleaf said:
I thought I was stating what I believe to be the facts, not spreading my distaste for the Church.If you can’t have a debate without throwing insults - “even a child can understand that” then perhaps this isn’t the place for me. I do truly seek knowledge - I find it amazing that you assume I don’t and that people get so shirty and abrupt with their replies. I did try asking an apologist my original question on this forum, but got no reply and found this particular forum quite interesting and responsive. But I think I’ll steer clear of it as I’m not up for these nasty toned replies.
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As I also state my belief of facts.

Nastiness? What sort of insult precisely do you mean? Are we not all to be ‘as little children’ before God?

Accusing the Church of treasure-gathering and war-mongering is all right, though? The Church does gather treasure, and you had best hope so—the treasure of Heaven.
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
As I also state my belief of facts.

Nastiness? What sort of insult precisely do you mean? Are we not all to be ‘as little children’ before God?

Accusing the Church of treasure-gathering and war-mongering is all right, though? The Church does gather treasure, and you had best hope so—the treasure of Heaven.
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“Even a child can understand this” is different from saying we must all be as little children (in innocence) and I think you know that full well, not that you’re likely to admit it from what I can see. Not to mention my comments being called wrong-hearted by another poster. I am not coming out of the blue and accusing the Church of war-mongering and treasure gathering, as I said plenty of factual books on the history of the Church state this. I can see this is going to go on forever and get more and more ridiculous unless one of us backs down in this and I get the impression it’s not going to be you so I’ll say no more.
 
treeleaf said:
“Even a child can understand this” is different from saying we must all be as little children (in innocence) and I think you know that full well, not that you’re likely to admit it from what I can see. Not to mention my comments being called wrong-hearted by another poster. I am not coming out of the blue and accusing the Church of war-mongering and treasure gathering, as I said plenty of factual books on the history of the Church state this. I can see this is going to go on forever and get more and more ridiculous unless one of us backs down in this and I get the impression it’s not going to be you so I’ll say no more.
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You might start a thread on the Apologetics or Traditional forum if you want those questions answered. Good luck.
 
treeleaf said:
He has spoken directly to the people who wrote the Bible, (we hope). He has spoken through them (not directly) to the rest of us. Anyway, I don’t think the Bible says anything about souls being created at the same time as bodies or am I wrong? Apparently Catholic doctrine does say this though, judging by all these answers, but I’m not sure I fully trust everything that is Catholic doctrine alone and has not been mentioned in the Bible. For example everyone was told limbo existed until the current Pope decided it didn’t, (which I’m inclined to believe more than the view that it did exist). I’m not sure all the Church leaders throughout the ages have been as holy as the should have been either. Sorry if this offends anyone, I don’t mean to, just telling the truth. You may wonder why I’ve chosen to join a Catholic forum if I don’t automatically believe everything the Church teaches. It’s because I was brought up Catholic and do believe the vast majority of it’s teachings and do trust it more than I trust any other non-Catholic Christian forum.
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The bible does say that souls are created in the time of conception even though it doesnt say it directly.

The creation of Adam should give us a hint that we didnt pre-exist, but God blew the spirit of life into his nostrils after forming his body.

Isnt this proof enough that we didnt pre-exist?
 
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