Gurney,You and I have always related well to each other, Anna. We have our ups and downs and understand one another. It’s always nice. It’s tough trying to be intellectually honest, fair, and to try and make a clear, level-headed, Spirit-guided decision. It takes time, discernment, prayer, and friends like you. Still praying for you!
Here’s to the mental and spiritual health of those who struggle. One more thing to appreciate about the miracle that is the internet. Thanks Al Gore. My prayers are with you and Gurney and anyone else that is seeking the Lord’s direction.Gurney,
That’s the thing about these forums. It connects people in ways that would not be otherwise possible. You’ve been such a good friend to me, and I know you are seeking God’s truth with all your heart. I continue to pray for you as well.
Here’s to pondering New Year’s resolutions,
Anna
He invented the internet, don’t you know that? He said some himself.Thanks so much, Johnny, but you lost me with the Al Gore reference?
He invented the internet, don’t you know that? He said some himself.
That’s really interesting gurney. I have to say that I haven’t been crazy in general about the pastoral care I see in Catholicism, but Anglicanism has some issues too, as I’m sure you know. They are just a little too polite and diffident - the priests I mean. I find you practically have to invite your own priest to give you spiritual advice, they don’t like to butt in you know?Gotcha. Yep, I remember it well. I just didn’t understand it in that context LOL
This religious thing has been THE most confusing journey of my life, seriously. I would say that FEAR has been my most driving factor. I hate to admit that, but it’s true. I am very happy as an Anglican and we love our parish. My kids love the place. My wife is very, very happy there. The climate is upbeat, gospel-driven, and warm. I’m also happy with son’s Lutheran education and my other two children will be at that school very soon. So I have had nothing but positive, edifying relationships with Protestants. And some of the sins I used to commit all-too-regularly as a Catholic that I confessed all the time and struggled with I haven’t been committing since I became an Anglican. Go figure. But always looming in the back of this Cradle Catholic’s mind is: “extra ecclesium non sallus” and it gives me chills quite frankly and I HATE IT. My wife doesn’t understand the fear. She grew up in the Philippines a Catholic and has no problem leaving. When we’ve gone back and visited Catholic Masses, she is not a happy camper nor are my kids and even I have mixed feelings.
Theologically I am far closer to Catholicism than Protestantism in many ways but I’m re-evaluating my beliefs based upon Scripture and I’m caught in between. Stinks!
When my mom was in the hospital one time, our former curate, Father Chris, came down to check on my mom several times. We had some folks come and pray with her from the Church and even sing to her! One of the parishoners was telling me that her husband was needing some open heart surgery. This was back in the 90’s. Well, that type of open-heart procedure wasn’t available in our humble town of 125,000. So they had to drive to Bakersfield about an hour south of here. Long story short, in the dead of winter the lady and her husband show up in Bakersfield, in the fog and gloom, there’s Father James sitting in the lobby waiting for them and she didn’t even ask him to come. He stayed for 8 hours, prayed with her, etc. Then when he died about 6 months later, Father James, despite being married himself and having kids, went to her house and ate dinner with her, prayed with her, counseled her, etc.
Maybe if you re-read your last post you will see why it was offensive to not just me, but I am sure other Catholics. You stated that Anglican, Lutherans etc. were much better than Catholic priests in their pastoral care. As far as AOG churches go, I have friends that belong and they have many “ministers”, who have not gone to seminary, but a type of bible school for a year. Another friend goes to a mega church and they have the same type of ministers who tell her things that are so far from the Christian message that I don’t think you can compare a priest or a minister that actually attends seminary for years.Why in the world do you feel “insulted?” I see no reason for such a response. We are talking about our LOCAL experiences and all of us have qualified everything with a “this is my OWN local experience” so why the insulted feelings?
You then go on to generalize yourself by saying the Catholic was far superior to TEC in your own experience, Bernadette, exactly what you got mad at others for doing?
It’s not all about numbers either. I know the Assembly of God church in this town is BIGGER than the Catholic church even and they are VERY well known for pastoral care while the Catholic is abysmal and priests lousy. And yet in other towns it’s the opposite. So what’s the big deal?
) and refusing to meet with people, maybe we would’ve stayed? Why in such a crucial time would a priest be so lax? These people are famously late or don’t show up at all at funerals, Bernadette! I could tell you PLENTY of stories but I held back, trust me. You don’t know my journey, the pain and suffering I’ve seen or known as a Catholic around here, so respectfully, I find it totally unfair that you characterize it this way. I had some priests do and say some hurtful things that you don’t know about. I never mentioned that either.I wasn’t implying that your anti Catholic, I did re-read my post and really don’t understand why your so upset. Also reading a post doesn’t show the real tone, it is just words and if I was mistaken in the way I read some of the posts, then sorry.With all due respect to you, Bernadette, this is hogwash. I haven’t bashed any Catholics and I haven’t said anything offensive, period. You’re being overly-sensitive in my humble opinion, and over-reacting. Maybe if you go back and actually re-read things you’ll see it’s all overreaction. I never made blanket statements. You know that. You’re trying to make my statements blanketed. I was quite clear in my post that this is MY EXPERIENCE and my experience only so quite frankly I am angry that you ignored that and are trying to paint me as an anti-Catholic in my characterizations. Nonsense. Anyone in here knows me better than that and I’m sorely disappointed that after all our posts between us, and I usually enjoy your very diplomatic and nicely-done posts, that you suddenly take offense in this way.
For clarity, meditate on this: BlueGoat stated that she thought locally pastoral care was pretty poor in Catholic circles and Anglican pastoral care not so hot really either. What did I say? Dittoes locally on the Catholic parishes here but my Anglican parish and this diocese for that matter, is awesome. Is that offensive to give credit where credit is due? Should I lie and say it stinks? I complimented my Anglican rector and other Anglicans with whom I’ve interacted and tried to detail some kind things they did. Sorry if that offends you. I would think you’d like to hear of good pastoral care from ANY Church!
Here’s my DIRECT QUOTE: My experience so far and anecdotal notes tell me the Anglicans and Lutherans and many Protestants here are ten times more pastoral than the Catholics. Of course that is based on location and experience and varies from place to place. Around here, it’s BAD
Please read that carefully and show me what’s offensive there? Notice the word “HERE?” Notice it doesn’t say all Catholics all over the world including Bernadette’s town? It says “here.” That was put there deliberately, Bernadette. Then take note “Of course this is based on location and experience varies from place to place.” Again, to make sure posters understand I’m not saying ALL Catholic priests are lousy and lazy, I say HERE and not all places. It couldn’t be more clear. I think you chose to find offense where none exists.
You might also ponder that if, when my wife and I struggled with NFP, if those priests had taken one solitary second to call us back after WEEKS (is that ok with you?, not calling a couple in turmoil back for weeks and ignoring their emails and even letters?
I am very aware that no Church can be stereotyped. Down in southern California, priests were much more dynamic and pastoral to my family. I have friends who attend Mass in southern California and they say it’s like heaven compared to around here. When my parents stay in Monterrey, CA they have coffee hours, fellowship, bible studies, warm priests, and it’s just amazing. Back East my mom’s friend is thrilled with her Catholic parish and the priests and the women’s groups and other great stuff is a joy for her. And I talk to happy Catholics day in day out here. Good for that. God be praised. That’s not my experience here. Does that mean I’ll never be Catholic again? Nope. Jury’s out. I’m praying hard about it and it’s a tough struggle I’m going through. When I try to talk about a local situation, it’s not an affront to you and an insult. I need to be able to talk about the world I live in to make a decent conversation and share my journey just as you do. God bless.
WoW! That is quite a difference. Do you think that it is because the Catholic priests are so over-burdened there? I wonder with NFP - I wonder if the priests just really don’t know what to say sometimes. <ost married Catholics just use ABC - and even a priest that really believes in NFP may find himself not knowing what to say to a couple. I think as a society we would be way better off if more families had more kids - I think it would impact the way we structure ourselves at a really basic level. But as one family, how do you manage? Things are not set up to work easily for large families (and I think you guys have it worse in the US.) So I wonder if priests just feel kind of helpless? Anyway, I digress and it still isn’t an excuse not to get back to people.Actually where I am, our Anglican clergy are AWESOME. When I have had a spiritual crisis, my rector, Father James, doesn’t bat an eye at meeting with me. We talked the other day for an hour and a half straight in his office. The bishop met with me at coffee hour one time and we ended up talking almost two hours!!!
When Kate and I were at our wit’s end about NFP as Catholics, totally fed up and not sure what to do (we were about to have our third child in three years), Father Ken from the diocese drove ONE HOUR from Clovis down to see us and we’d never even met him before! He was an Anglican retired priest from the diocese who still works with the diocese to do confessions and counsel, etc. He drove down to see us at our house because I had emailed him after no Catholic priests would call us back or return emails, etc. for weeks and weeks. When the chips were down, the Anglican priest came down and counseled us. He stayed at our house for three hours and prayed, read from Scripture, and offered his advice. NFP was the first issue that made my wife and I raise an eyebrow and seriously question the braintrust.
My parents went to Father James one time and he helped them out, he is always available, very pastoral. The whole diocese is. The Catholic diocese here puts the “a” in aloof and the “u” in unavailable. My wife actually had to all but bust into the priest’s office at St. Mary’s to get the priest to respond to us. If you are a big $$$ doner, rest assured you’ll get a quick call back though!
My experience so far and anecdotal notes tell me the Anglicans and Lutherans and many Protestants here are ten times more pastoral than the Catholics. Of course that is based on location and experience and varies from place to place. Around here, it’s BAD.
) and we needed spiritual guidance. No priests would get back to us. It was brutal. Finally when we met with the assistant priest, he said NFP was unrealistic, they don’t encourage or care about it, and he said that the truth is out “in the field” as he put it, priests have more of a “sense of reality” and we know that people don’t use it. So he recommended we never try it and not even confess it as it wasn’t a sin in his opinion.Yeah, this really really bothers me too. If it is that hard to consent to a sacrament, there is something really wrong.
I agree that we cannot generalize, but we can speak to our individual experiences, and we have the right to talk about those. Unfortunately, the pastoral care me and my family have received has varied from church to church, even within my former tradition of Pentecostalism. We had one church that was awesome and very loving, others could give a rat’s rear end about you.
That is expecting too much of a priest. I am aware that the church is doing the best it can with the number of priests it has. Even protestant megachurchs of 2000 plus may have one lead pastor, the equalavent of a priest, but will have other staff pastors. The removal of the celebacy requirement would bring more men into the priesthood, but that is my opinion.
When I first read this I was pretty mad. I guess I felt like who are you to come in and tell us what we can post and can’t. This is a public forum and I think most of the people in this topic are being respectful of the rules. I know as non-Catholics on a Catholic board we are guests, and try to conduct ourselves as such.
I appreciate the the thoughts and prayers, but I get a sense of a thinly veiled condescending tone towards Protestants like we are Protestant simply because we wish to rebel against the Catholic church, and just choose what feel is right. I hope that is not what you are saying, or implying, so correct me if I am off. I hope I am. Hearing such from other Catholics is getting old. Not to mention such ad hominems are a convienent way of dismissing people instead of entering into serious dialogue with them about the real issues.
LOL. Someone pointed out that Anglican priests going to Rome will have a bit of an adjustment. Anglican clergy are generally far better paid with far fewer parishioners to worry about and larger church budgets than their Catholic counterparts (ie more contributions).
JohnnyReb,
Consider that the CC tells people that if they do as you have suggested, they are in fact not part of the “real” Church, have no access to many sacraments, and their chances of making into Heaven are reduced. This is especially true for those who were brought up in the CC and indoctrinated with the idea that if they leave, they will go to Hell. Catholic posters tell people this all the time here. I am a bit surprised that you haven’t noticed this, or noticed that your advice to find another church to attend is a bit of a problem from a Catholic perspective.
People struggle because they are told that there is really only one option, but there are things that make them very uncomfortable about that option.